Double-blind Prayer Efficacy Test -- Really?

[KWED]

Yes, I believe people are not lying or delusional when they experience the spiritual, because I have experienced it myself.

Firstly, that makes no sense as an argument.
"I have done x, therefore everyone who claims to have done x must be telling the truth". Come on. Really>

because I have experienced it myself.

1. How do you know you were not delusional?
2. How do I know that you are not lying?

 

[KWED]

Einstein did not believe in what we often call a "personal god", namely one that supposedly operates on a human-like scale and acts like a overseeing father, such as your quote above relates to. However, he stated over and over again that he did believe in God-- "Spinoza's God".

But "Spinoza's god" isn't really a god at all. It is nature, or natural processes and laws or the sum total of the universe or some other such vague rexpression It is not a sentient, creator being with agency. And Einstein didn't claim to be a pantheist. He also stated that "The word God is for me nothing but the expression and product of human weaknesses".
Given all this, it is somewhat disingenuous to claim that "Einstein believed in god".

My understanding is that most of us that drift in that same direction don't split hairs when it comes to being a pantheist or a panentheist. How could we possibly know which it is?

Einstein didn't claim to be either.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Firstly, that makes no sense as an argument.
"I have done x, therefore everyone who claims to have done x must be telling the truth". Come on. Really>

1. How do you know you were not delusional?
2. How do I know that you are not lying?

Lol, the same questions apply to your beliefs.... you have no argument.

 

[Wildswanderer]

How did you rule out delusion or just being mistaken?

The same way that I rule out everything that I think I'm experiencing in life actually being an elaborate video game played by aliens.
Could be, but it's highly unlikely, and if it were, what would be the point of believing it was? Either life experiences are real or not and I choose to believe they are...if I'm wrong, nothing matters anyway.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The same way that I rule out everything that I think I'm experiencing in life actually being an elaborate video game played by aliens.
Could be, but it's highly unlikely, and if it were, what would be the point of believing it was? Either life experiences are real or not and I choose to believe they are...if I'm wrong, nothing matters anyway.

Which is .... how?

How did you determine that your interpretation of what you experienced was "highly likely" to be accurate? That would involve some kind of math, because you're talking probability.

You know that human beings are prone to all kinds of cognitive and logical errors, right? Your experience could be real but your interpretation of your experience could be mistaken.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Lol, the same questions apply to your beliefs.... you have no argument.

Boy, you really have a knack for non-answers.

 

[Wildswanderer]

You know that human beings are prone to all kinds of cognitive and logical errors, right? Your experience could be real but your interpretation of your experience could be mistaken.

Then when I eat an apple I'm really eating a grape?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Boy, you really have a knack for non-answers.

If you start claiming all our human experience is questionable you have to apply the same standard to your experiences.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Then when I eat an apple I'm really eating a grape?

Try being serious and using your brain for actual thought rather than wasting your time trying to come up with snarky remarks.
Then maybe we can have a real conversation.

I guess I should take this to mean that you don't recognize that human beings are prone to many different cognitive and logical errors?

 

[SkepticThinker]

If you start claiming all our human experience is questionable you have to apply the same standard to your experiences.

Not "all" human experiences. Just the ones under discussion.
For instance, the ones where people makes claims about things but can't demonstrate them to anyone.

 

[KWED]

Lol, the same questions apply to your beliefs....

Not really...
1. I never claimed that because I have experienced something then everyone else who claims to have done it must be telling the truth.
2. I don't have any "beliefs". I just accept explanations based on evidence and rational argument.
3. I have not claimed to have experienced things that defy the laws of nature, so I cannot be making up claims that I have not made.
4. I accept that at any given moment I could be mistaken about what I am experiencing - especially if it would mean the laws of nature have been suspended. I understand that the brain can and does play tricks on it's owner, and the owner does not realise it.

you have no argument.

Yes I have. I just presented it.
I notice that you avoided addressing it. I'll ask again...
1. How do you know that your "experiences of god" weren't just delusions?
2. How can I know that you are not making it up?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Not really...
1. I never claimed that because I have experienced something then everyone else who claims to have done it must be telling the truth.
2. I don't have any "beliefs". I just accept explanations based on evidence and rational argument.
3. I have not claimed to have experienced things that defy the laws of nature, so I cannot be making up claims that I have not made.
4. I accept that at any given moment I could be mistaken about what I am experiencing - especially if it would mean the laws of nature have been suspended. I understand that the brain can and does play tricks on it's owner, and the owner does not realise it.

Yes I have. I just presented it.
I notice that you avoided addressing it. I'll ask again...
1. How do you know that your "experiences of god" weren't just delusions?
2. How can I know that you are not making it up?

"What is more likely, that the laws of nature has been suspended in your favor, or that you've made a mistake?'
-Christopher Hitchen's paraphrasing of Hume

 

[KWED]

The same way that I rule out everything that I think I'm experiencing in life actually being an elaborate video game played by aliens.

And how is that? If life is just a simulation, by definition we are not aware of it so you can't rule it out.

If you find the idea of aliens creating and controlling your universe to be too ridiculous to consider, why do you find the idea of a god doing the same so convincing?

Could be, but it's highly unlikely, and if it were, what would be the point of believing it was? Either life experiences are real or not and I choose to believe they are...if I'm wrong, nothing matters anyway.

So are you saying that your brain is not capable of having delusional episodes?
Or are you admitting that it is but you don't care if it does?

 

[KWED]

"What is more likely, that the laws of nature has been suspended in your favor, or that you've made a mistake?'
-Christopher Hitchen's paraphrasing of Hume

Indeed. I had that in mind.

 

[KWED]

If you start claiming all our human experience is questionable you have to apply the same standard to your experiences.

Not "all" experience. However, we know that people suffer delusions that seem completely real. We also know that people lie about stuff, sometimes for no apparent reason.
If someone told you that they'd been abducted by invisible dragons to their lair atop the Burj Khalifa, but escaped through a wormhole back to their own bedroom, you would rightly suspect one of two explanations.
1. Delusion.
2. Fabrication

No one in their right mind would give
3. It actually happened
a second thought.
But you seem to be suggesting that it is not only a possibility, but we should accept it as the best explanation, simply because the person said it happened!

 

[SkepticThinker]

Indeed. I had that in mind.

I sensed that.

 

[Wildswanderer]

If you find the idea of aliens creating and controlling your universe to be too ridiculous to consider, why do you find the idea of a god doing the same so convincing?

Because the world obviously didn't happen by accident and I find God the best explanation... That's a reason to initially believe, but once you experience God personally you don't have to question which God is real.

 

[Wildswanderer]

don't have any "beliefs".

Nonsense. You just expressed a bunch of them.

 

[Wildswanderer]

1. How do you know that your "experiences of god" weren't just delusions?

Again everything could be an illusion. But I believe what I experience because it's the only way to interpret life. And my experiences of God are just as real to me as knowing where I'm sitting at the moment. If I'm wrong about both, oh well!

 

[Wildswanderer]

Not "all" human experiences. Just the ones under discussion.
For instance, the ones where people makes claims about things but can't demonstrate them to anyone.

I can't prove a lot of things that are real. Neither can you. You can say you love someone but you can't prove it because it's not measurable with instruments. Does that make it less real?