When did Paul convert?

[paarsurrey]

The author of gMark may have put a couple of Paul's teachings into Jesus' mouth.

1. And who was he (the author ofgMark ), please?
2. And Jesus wasn't there. Right?

Regards.

______________
When did Paul convert?

 

[paarsurrey]

Please provide an explanation as to why, in general and particularly to you, it mattters as requested in post #2.

Because there are different views, the general views in Christians, as I understand, is that Paul got converted from Judaism with the vision of risen Jesus wherein Jesus appointed Saul/Paul his Apostle.
One of my friends wrote an article in which he wrote " “Paul after about twenty years of Jesus’ death started Preaching his gospel. ". My friend sent it to me to read it and comment on the article written by him.
I asked him the same question , "When did Paul's conversion take place?".
He told me verbally that Paul converted two times. First time he had the same views as did Peter who was a follower of Jesus but was an observant of Torah and the second time when he was made an Apostle of Jesus, as claims Paul.
I thought I should enquire about it from my friends here.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

When did Paul convert?

I get following information:

1. "From this it may be inferred that he was born about the same time as Jesus (c. 4 BCE) or a little later. He was converted to faith in Jesus Christ about 33 CE, and he died, probably in Rome, circa 62–64 CE." :Saint Paul the Apostle | Biography & Facts
2. How long after Jesus death was Paul converted?
   
   "4-7 years
   The narrative of the Book of Acts suggests Paul's conversion occurred 4-7 years after the crucifixion of Jesus.": Conversion of Paul the Apostle - Wikipedia
3. "Although the apostle Paul, about twenty years after Jesus' death, stated "the gospel," which, he says, "I too received" ("that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day"): Page-5 "Beyond Belief. The Secret Gospel of Thomas" by Elaine Pagels

Which one of the above is correct, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

When did Paul convert?

A tentative timeline of Paul:

c. 5 Born—an Israelite—in Tarsus of Cilicia (Acts 22:3; Phil 3:5)

A Roman citizen by birthright (Acts 22:28)​

7 Judea becomes a Roman Imperial province
14 Census of Caesar and Tiberius

Lyvia poisons Augustus; Tiberius comes into power​

c.15-20 At the school of Gamaliel, Jerusalem (Acts 22:3)
26 Pilate begins serving as procurator of Judea
28 John the Baptist executed by Herod Antipas
30 Crucifixion of Christ
31(?) A Pharisee (Phil 3:5)
c. 32 Present at Stephen's stoning (Acts 7:58; 8:1)
c.33-34 Persecutor of the church (Acts 8:1-3; Phil 3:6)
34 Conversion on the Road to Damascus (Acts 9:1-9)

(Adopted from the "Blue Letter Bible", upto Paul's "conversion"
Apostle Paul's Timeline - Study Resources

How would the different positions as given in post #23 affect the timeline given above, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

He knew about Jesus. He persecuted Christians as a Pharisee. His conversion took him from persecuting followers of the Lord to being persecuted for the sake of the Lord.

The timeline given by Blue Letter Bible (reference post #24 ) shows that Paul persecuted followers of Jesus (then known as Jerusalem Church*, as "Christianity" was founded by Paul not by Jesus, therefore, better name it Pauline-Christianity) in the years "c.33-34 Persecutor of the church (Acts 8:1-3; Phil 3:6)" and not earlier, I understand. Right?
When did Paul come to know of Jesus first time, please?

Regards
_________________
*James the Just, or a variation of James, brother of the Lord (Latin: Iacobus from Hebrew: יעקב, Ya'akov and Greek: Ἰάκωβος, Iákōbos, can also be Anglicized as "Jacob"), was "a brother of Jesus", according to the New Testament. He was an early leader of the Jerusalem Church of the Apostolic Age.
James, brother of Jesus - Wikipedia

 

[paarsurrey]

Please provide an explanation as to why, in general and particularly to you, it mattters as requested in post #2.

I replied one's post reference post #22 . Right?
Did it help?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

When did Paul convert?

As is held, I understand, by all the 32000+ Pauline Christianity people, (including Mormons and JWs) Paul got converted after seeing a vision. Right?
If Jesus could see vision of Devil/Satan in the wilderness for forty days while he was fasting, as per NT Bible* why cannot Paul see in his vision Devil/Satan, please?
Couldn't this be the "thorn in flesh", Paul confessed about**? Right?

Regards
_____________
* not as per Quran
** 2 Corinthians 12:7 ("a thorn in the flesh," and as a heavy stroke by "a messenger of Satan" )

 

[paarsurrey]

When did Paul convert?

(12) The disciples said to Jesus : "We know that You will leave from us. Who is to be our leader ?" Jesus said to them : "From where You stand now, You are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."

"The Gospel of (according to) Thomas"
JESUS-PEOPLE : the "Gospel of Thomas"

Jesus had already appointed James the Just, his brother, his Successor after him, as I understand. Right?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

When did Paul convert?

(12) The disciples said to Jesus : "We know that You will leave from us. Who is to be our leader ?" Jesus said to them : "From where You stand now, You are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."

"The Gospel of (according to) Thomas"
JESUS-PEOPLE : the "Gospel of Thomas"

Jesus had already appointed James the Just, his brother, his Successor after him, as I understand. Right?

Paul's claim of seeing a vision on the road to Damascus, in the wake of above, is wrong. Right?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

When did Paul convert?

"Paul's conversion experience is discussed in both the Pauline epistles and in the Acts of the Apostles. According to both sources, Saul/Paul was not a follower of Jesus and did not know him before his crucifixion. "
Conversion of Paul the Apostle - Wikipedia
If Paul did not know/meet Jesus before, then how did he recognize Jesus in his vision?
Doesn't it mean that Paul's surely faked the vision, I understand?
Right?

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

When did Paul convert?

A tentative timeline of Paul:

c. 5 Born—an Israelite—in Tarsus of Cilicia (Acts 22:3; Phil 3:5)

A Roman citizen by birthright (Acts 22:28)​

7 Judea becomes a Roman Imperial province
14 Census of Caesar and Tiberius

Lyvia poisons Augustus; Tiberius comes into power​

c.15-20 At the school of Gamaliel, Jerusalem (Acts 22:3)
26 Pilate begins serving as procurator of Judea
28 John the Baptist executed by Herod Antipas
30 Crucifixion of Christ
31(?) A Pharisee (Phil 3:5)
c. 32 Present at Stephen's stoning (Acts 7:58; 8:1)
c.33-34 Persecutor of the church (Acts 8:1-3; Phil 3:6)
34 Conversion on the Road to Damascus (Acts 9:1-9)

(Adopted from the "Blue Letter Bible", upto Paul's "conversion"
Apostle Paul's Timeline - Study Resources

How would the different positions as given in post #23 affect the timeline given above, please?

Regards

So was there a reason for this OP?

Regards Tony

 

[paarsurrey]

When did Paul convert?

When did Paul convert?

A tentative timeline of Paul:

c. 5 Born—an Israelite—in Tarsus of Cilicia (Acts 22:3; Phil 3:5)

A Roman citizen by birthright (Acts 22:28)​

7 Judea becomes a Roman Imperial province
14 Census of Caesar and Tiberius

Lyvia poisons Augustus; Tiberius comes into power​

c.15-20 At the school of Gamaliel, Jerusalem (Acts 22:3)
26 Pilate begins serving as procurator of Judea
28 John the Baptist executed by Herod Antipas
30 Crucifixion of Christ
31(?) A Pharisee (Phil 3:5)
c. 32 Present at Stephen's stoning (Acts 7:58; 8:1)
c.33-34 Persecutor of the church (Acts 8:1-3; Phil 3:6)
34 Conversion on the Road to Damascus (Acts 9:1-9)

(Adopted from the "Blue Letter Bible", upto Paul's "conversion"
Apostle Paul's Timeline - Study Resources

How would the different positions as given in post #23 affect the timeline given above, please?

" an Israelite"

It is dubious, I understand:
"Not a Hebrew Scholar; a Hellenist.

"Saul (whose Roman cognomen was Paul; see Acts xiii. 9) was born of Jewish parents in the first decade of the common era at Tarsus in Cilicia (Acts ix. 11, xxi. 39, xxii. 3). The claim in Rom. xi. 1 and Phil. iii. 5 that he was of the tribe of Benjamin, suggested by the similarity of his name with that of the first Israelitish king, is, if the passages are genuine, a false one, no tribal lists or pedigrees of this kind having been in existence at that time (see Eusebius, "Hist. Eccl." i. 7, 5; Pes. 62b; M. Sachs, "Beiträge zur Sprach- und Alterthumsforschung," 1852, ii. 157). "
SAUL OF TARSUS - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Right?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

When did Paul convert?

" an Israelite"

It is dubious, I understand:
"Not a Hebrew Scholar; a Hellenist.

"Saul (whose Roman cognomen was Paul; see Acts xiii. 9) was born of Jewish parents in the first decade of the common era at Tarsus in Cilicia (Acts ix. 11, xxi. 39, xxii. 3). The claim in Rom. xi. 1 and Phil. iii. 5 that he was of the tribe of Benjamin, suggested by the similarity of his name with that of the first Israelitish king, is, if the passages are genuine, a false one, no tribal lists or pedigrees of this kind having been in existence at that time (see Eusebius, "Hist. Eccl." i. 7, 5; Pes. 62b; M. Sachs, "Beiträge zur Sprach- und Alterthumsforschung," 1852, ii. 157). "
SAUL OF TARSUS - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Right?

To add:
" Nor is there any indication in Paul's writings or arguments that he had received the rabbinical training ascribed to him by Christian writers, ancient and modern; least of all could he have acted or written as he did had he been, as is alleged (Acts xxii. 3), the disciple of Gamaliel I., the mild Hillelite.
SAUL OF TARSUS - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Right?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

When did Paul convert?

Paul " an Israelite"!?

It is dubious, I understand:
"Not a Hebrew Scholar; a Hellenist.

"Saul (whose Roman cognomen was Paul; see Acts xiii. 9) was born of Jewish parents in the first decade of the common era at Tarsus in Cilicia (Acts ix. 11, xxi. 39, xxii. 3). The claim in Rom. xi. 1 and Phil. iii. 5 that he was of the tribe of Benjamin, suggested by the similarity of his name with that of the first Israelitish king, is, if the passages are genuine, a false one, no tribal lists or pedigrees of this kind having been in existence at that time (see Eusebius, "Hist. Eccl." i. 7, 5; Pes. 62b; M. Sachs, "Beiträge zur Sprach- und Alterthumsforschung," 1852, ii. 157). "
SAUL OF TARSUS - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Right?

To add further:
" His (Paul's) quotations from Scripture, which are all taken, directly or from memory, from the Greek version, betray no familiarity with the original Hebrew text. The Hellenistic literature, such as the Book of Wisdom and other Apocrypha, as well as Philo (see Hausrath, "Neutestamentliche Zeitgeschichte," ii. 18-27; Siegfried, "Philo von Alexandria," 1875, pp. 304-310; Jowett, "Commentary on the Thessalonians and Galatians," i. 363-417), was the sole source for his eschatological and theological system. Notwithstanding the emphatic statement, in Phil. iii. 5, that he was "a Hebrew of the Hebrews"—a rather unusual term, which seems to refer to his nationalistic training and conduct (comp. Acts xxi. 40, xxii. 2), since his Jewish birth is stated in the preceding words "of the stock of Israel"—he was, if any of the Epistles that bear his name are really his, entirely a Hellenist in thought and sentiment."
SAUL OF TARSUS - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Right?
In the wake of the above one may or could and or must safely conclude that Paul was never a Jew, he was a Hellenist and thought of a plan to spread Hellenism (myth involving a life-death-rebirth deity) under cover of a new named religion "Christianity" (misusing Jesus the Messiah), I understand. Right?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said: ↑
When did Paul convert?

A tentative timeline of Paul:

c. 5 Born—an Israelite—in Tarsus of Cilicia (Acts 22:3; Phil 3:5)
A Roman citizen by birthright (Acts 22:28)

" an Israelite"

It is dubious, I understand:
"Not a Hebrew Scholar; a Hellenist.

"Saul (whose Roman cognomen was Paul; see Acts xiii. 9) was born of Jewish parents in the first decade of the common era at Tarsus in Cilicia (Acts ix. 11, xxi. 39, xxii. 3). The claim in Rom. xi. 1 and Phil. iii. 5 that he was of the tribe of Benjamin, suggested by the similarity of his name with that of the first Israelitish king, is, if the passages are genuine, a false one, no tribal lists or pedigrees of this kind having been in existence at that time (see Eusebius, "Hist. Eccl." i. 7, 5; Pes. 62b; M. Sachs, "Beiträge zur Sprach- und Alterthumsforschung," 1852, ii. 157). "
SAUL OF TARSUS - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Right?

To add about Paul being a Hellenist:
"As such he was imbued with the notion that "the whole creation groaneth" for liberation from "the prison-house of the body," from this earthly existence, which, because of its pollution by sin and death, is intrinsically evil (Gal. i. 4; Rom. v. 12, vii. 23-24, viii. 22; I Cor. vii. 31; II Cor. v. 2, 4; comp. Philo, "De Allegoriis Legum," iii. 75; idem, "De Vita Mosis," iii. 17; idem, "De Ebrietate," § 26; and Wisdom ii.24). As a Hellenist, also, he distinguished between an earthly and a heavenly Adam (I Cor. xv. 45-49; comp. Philo, "De Allegoriis Legum," i. 12), and, accordingly, between the lower psychic. life and the higher spiritual life attained only by asceticism (Rom. xii. 1; I Cor. vii. 1-31, ix. 27, xv. 50; comp. Philo, "De Profugis," § 17; and elsewhere). His whole state of mind shows the influence of the theosophic or Gnostic lore of Alexandria,"
SAUL OF TARSUS - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Right?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said: ↑
When did Paul convert?

A tentative timeline of Paul:

c. 5 Born—an Israelite—in Tarsus of Cilicia (Acts 22:3; Phil 3:5)
A Roman citizen by birthright (Acts 22:28)

" an Israelite"

It is dubious, I understand:
"Not a Hebrew Scholar; a Hellenist.

"Saul (whose Roman cognomen was Paul; see Acts xiii. 9) was born of Jewish parents in the first decade of the common era at Tarsus in Cilicia (Acts ix. 11, xxi. 39, xxii. 3). The claim in Rom. xi. 1 and Phil. iii. 5 that he was of the tribe of Benjamin, suggested by the similarity of his name with that of the first Israelitish king, is, if the passages are genuine, a false one, no tribal lists or pedigrees of this kind having been in existence at that time (see Eusebius, "Hist. Eccl." i. 7, 5; Pes. 62b; M. Sachs, "Beiträge zur Sprach- und Alterthumsforschung," 1852, ii. 157). "
SAUL OF TARSUS - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Right?

To add about Paul being a Hellenist:

"His (Paul's) whole state of mind shows the influence of the theosophic or Gnostic lore of Alexandria, especially the Hermes literature recently brought to light by Reizenstein in his important work "Poimandres," 1904 (see Index, s. v. "Paulus," "Briefe des Paulus," and "Philo"); hence his strange belief in supernatural powers (Reizenstein, l.c. pp. 77, 287), in fatalism, in "speaking in tongues" (I Cor. xii.-xiv.; comp. Reizenstein, l.c. p. 58; Dieterich, "Abraxas," pp. 5 et seq.; Weinel, "Die Wirkungen des Geistes und der Geister," 1899, pp. 72 et seq.; I Cor. xv. 8; II Cor. xii. 1-6; Eph. iii. 3), and in mysteries or sacraments (Rom. xvi. 25; Col. i. 26, ii. 2, iv. 3; Eph. i. 9, iii. 4, vi. 19)—a term borrowed solely from heathen rites."
SAUL OF TARSUS - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Right?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said: ↑
When did Paul convert?

A tentative timeline of Paul:

c. 5 Born—an Israelite—in Tarsus of Cilicia (Acts 22:3; Phil 3:5)
A Roman citizen by birthright (Acts 22:28)


To add about Paul being a Hellenist:

"His (Paul's) whole state of mind shows the influence of the theosophic or Gnostic lore of Alexandria, especially the Hermes literature recently brought to light by Reizenstein in his important work "Poimandres," 1904 (see Index, s. v. "Paulus," "Briefe des Paulus," and "Philo"); hence his strange belief in supernatural powers (Reizenstein, l.c. pp. 77, 287), in fatalism, in "speaking in tongues" (I Cor. xii.-xiv.; comp. Reizenstein, l.c. p. 58; Dieterich, "Abraxas," pp. 5 et seq.; Weinel, "Die Wirkungen des Geistes und der Geister," 1899, pp. 72 et seq.; I Cor. xv. 8; II Cor. xii. 1-6; Eph. iii. 3), and in mysteries or sacraments (Rom. xvi. 25; Col. i. 26, ii. 2, iv. 3; Eph. i. 9, iii. 4, vi. 19)—a term borrowed solely from heathen rites."
SAUL OF TARSUS - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Right?

In view of the above one can safely
conclude that Paul never converted to Jesus's following but instead Paul thought of a vicious plan, I understand, to convert the simple minded , frustrated and shocked followers of Jesus to Hellenism ( like Attis cult, a myth involving a life-death-rebirth deity). Right?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

When did Paul convert?

As is held, I understand, by all the 32000+ Pauline Christianity people, (including Mormons and JWs) Paul got converted after seeing a vision. Right?
If Jesus could see vision of Devil/Satan in the wilderness for forty days while he was fasting, as per NT Bible* why cannot Paul see in his vision Devil/Satan, please?
Couldn't this be the "thorn in flesh", Paul confessed about**? Right?
_____________
* not as per Quran
** 2 Corinthians 12:7 ("a thorn in the flesh," and as a heavy stroke by "a messenger of Satan" )

To add:
In view of the above one may or one can or one could certainly conclude that either Paul faked the Vision or Paul , I understand, saw Devil/Satan who proclaimed that he was Jesus. Right?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Yes, Jesus said you don't choose me, I choose you.
So, Paul must have had something special to be chosen.

and Jesus chose James his brother as his successor:

"(12) The disciples said to Jesus : "We know that You will leave from us. Who is to be our leader ?" Jesus said to them : "From where You stand now, You are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."

"The Gospel of (according to) Thomas"
JESUS-PEOPLE : the "Gospel of Thomas"

Jesus had already appointed James the Just, his brother, his Successor after him, as I understand. Right?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

The author of gMark may have put a couple of Paul's teachings into Jesus' mouth.

for instance, please. Kindly elaborate one's points, please.

Regards