Without God(s), what is the point?!

[KWED]

Who said He did?

He obviously does. The evidence is overwhelming.

But then, there's free choice, too.

People don't "choose" to be sociopaths or sadists or psychopaths, etc. It is their innate nature.
Now, if our innate nature has nothing to do with god, it is yet another example of "what purpose god?'.

 

[KWED]

You are assuming you don't have any say in how much you listen to your conscience.

So is it our innate nature that is god's work, or is it our ability to overrule our innate nature?
If the latter, where does our innate nature come from?
If the former, why does god create people as sociopaths, sadists, psychopaths, etc?

 

[KWED]

Lol, my ideology literally is self sacrifice, so what are you talking about?!

No it isn't. What "self sacrifice" have you performed?

Fear of punishment and desire for reward is at the core of Christian ideology. It is the prime motivation for your actions. Therefore it is primarily about self-interest.

 

[Wildswanderer]

No it isn't. What "self sacrifice" have you performed?

Fear of punishment and desire for reward is at the core of Christian ideology. It is the prime motivation for your actions. Therefore it is primarily about self-interest.

If I bragged about my self sacrifice that would not be humble would it?
How is it you can't understand that a religion built on a Messiah who allows himself to be sacrificed for everyone is a religion that calls it's members to be humble and put self on the altar for the good of others? That's Christianity.

 

[KWED]

That's not true of everyone.

Most people.

I'm not convinced it's natural for anyone. It's part of their connection with the divine.

In which case, empathy and altruism should only be observed in humans.
Oh, wait. It is observed in other species.
It is a naturally occurring trait that has clear evolutionary benefits.
Your opinion is simply wrong. You are only looking at your desired conclusion, not at the evidence and rational argument.

 

[Wildswanderer]

So is it our innate nature that is god's work, or is it our ability to overrule our innate nature?

The prominent nature is self serving. That's what you are born with, but you are also born in the image of God so the potential for greatness is also there. I'm sure you have heard the Indian parable..." It's the wolf you feed that grows."

 

[Wildswanderer]

Oh, wait. It is observed in other species.

God created other species with a ( limited) capability for love, yes. But as someone who has lived around the animals all their life, it's not as common as you might imagine. Most of what an animal does is instinct and selfishness.

 

[Wildswanderer]

No. That's what I've been saying. Morality and ethics are subjective and conditional.

Then they aren't even real.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Why would any of that make it not worth it to live your life?

But why try to prolong that meaningless life? This is why most atheist are pro abortion and pro genocide IMO. Life isn't really sacred to them in any sense.

 

[Wildswanderer]

You have a moral compass because you are the member of a social species that's been evolving for millions of years. So even if you don't believe in the evidence of reality, it's still there.

That so called compass is completely relative, as other atheist here have already confirmed.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Right. Because dying brains notoriously perform very well.

No... because we have no reason to lie when we are dying.

 

[Wildswanderer]

It's quite dishonest of you to seemingly imply that humility is somehow exclusive to christianity.
And the part about everybody being "broken", that's just the guilt trip part of your religious belief.

Such assertions are meaningless to me.

That's because you can't allow yourself to believe evil and good really exist.

 

[KWED]

If I bragged about my self sacrifice that would not be humble would it?

You wouldn't be bragging, you would be answering my question.
And claiming that your life has more meaning and purpose than mine is hardly humble, is it? In fact, the whole "God created a universe for me, and cares about me, and has saved a place in heaven for me" schtick is the definition of hubris.

How is it you can't understand that a religion built on a Messiah who allows himself to be sacrificed for everyone is a religion that calls it's members to be humble and put self on the altar for the good of others? That's Christianity.

Because apart form the unsupported assertions, it is a non sequitur. Why does Jesus' sacrifice mean you must be humble and sacrifice yourself? I though his sacrifice was in place of yours - that's the whole point!
So what practical good have you done for others that an atheist couldn't do? And if it is entirely selfless, why do you hope to be rewarded with eternal paradise for your worship and good deeds?

 

[KWED]

No... because we have no reason to lie when we are dying.

Of course some people have.
While they are alive, they are concerned with what their legacy will be. If they have awful secrets, they will still keep them hidden to the grave.
Similarly, if people are willing to die for a cause, lying for that cause is small beer by comparison.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Of course some people have.
While they are alive, they are concerned with what their legacy will be. If they have awful secrets, they will still keep them hidden to the grave.
Similarly, if people are willing to die for a cause, lying for that cause is small beer by comparison.

What does your legacy matter if you cease to exist?
At any rate, Jesus had no reason to lie about forgiving his tormentors. He would have been completely justified as a Jew to call for God to kill them.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Because apart form the unsupported assertions, it is a non sequitur. Why does Jesus' sacrifice mean you must be humble and sacrifice yourself? I though his sacrifice was in place of yours - that's the whole point!
So what practical good have you done for others that an atheist couldn't do? And if it is entirely selfless, why do you hope to be rewarded with eternal paradise for your worship and good deeds?

Because we are called to follow Jesus' example, obviously.
And an atheist cannot point others to eternal life, which is the most good anyone could do for another.
Heaven is not merited by doing good. It's a gift for all those who truly believe. That's humbling, not self exalting. God gets all the glory.

 

[Wildswanderer]

God created a universe for me, and cares about me, and has saved a place in heaven for me" schtick is the definition of hubris.

Not just for me. For all humans including you. There's no pride in needing Jesus. It's the opposite. It's giving up on self.

 

[Link]

Not just for me. For all humans including you. There's no pride in needing Jesus. It's the opposite. It's giving up on self.

God is the pride for who has no pride. Seems like a paradox, but that is one of God's titles in Du'a Jawthan Al-Kabir (The bigger prayer of Armor).

It means other then God, they have nothing to be proud of, and God is their only pride.

 

[Link]

Not just for me. For all humans including you. There's no pride in needing Jesus. It's the opposite. It's giving up on self.

Salam

The 28 Section of the prayer:

يَا عِمَادَ مَن لا عِمَادَ لَهُ
O Supporter of who has no support,
ya i`imada mal-la i`imada lah

يَا سَنَدَ مَن لا سَنَدَ لَهُ
O reliance of who has no reliance
ya sanada mal-la sanada lah

يَا ذُخْرَ مَن لا ذُخْرَ لَهُ
O Protector of who has no protection,
ya dhukh-ra mal-la dhukh-ra lah

يَا حِرْزَ مَن لا حِرْزَ لَهُ
O Shield for who has no shield,
ya hirza mal-la hirza lah

يَا غِيَاثَ مَن لا غِيَاثَ لَهُ
O Aid of who has no aid,
ya ghiyatha mal-laghiyatha lah

يَا فَخْرَ مَن لا فَخْرَ لَهُ
O Pride of those who have no pride,
ya fakh-ra mal-la fakh-ra lah

يَا عِزَّ مَن لا عِزَّ لَهُ
O Honour of those who have no honor
ya i`iz-za mal-la i`iz-za lah

يَا مُعِينَ مَن لا مُعِينَ لَهُ
O helper of those who have no helper
ya mue'ena mal-la mue'ena lah

يَا أَنِيسَ مَن لا أَنِيسَ لَهُ
O Intimate of who has no intimate
ya anesa mal-la anesa lah

يَا أَمَانَ مَن لا أَمَانَ لَهُ
O Safety of those who have no safety
ya amana mal-la amana lah

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So in an atheists world what ultimate benefits are there in helping sick people survive? None that I can see... we all die anyway and our existence here, as you already admit, is pointless in a godless universe.

In a theist's world, what benefits are there in helping a sick person survive?

If healing the sick just means delaying their transition to a life in Heaven that's much better than here, haven't you done them a disservice?

Plus, we have God's holy plan. They'll only die if God wants them to die. It would be futile to try to mess with God's will... no?