Without God(s), what is the point?!

[Kharisym]

@Wildswanderer thinks that if you say your life is better without religion, you are not telling the truth. How would you respond to that?

Contrary to their belief, Wildwanderer cannot know what's in my heart. For the idea of them knowing what I feel and experience within my own mind to have any validity they would first have to prove their religion correct. Since they cannot prove their religion correct, then their opinions about how I *really* feel or *really* believe are invalid.

I also think that decisions born of invalid beliefs have far more risk of doing harm than decisions made from valid beliefs, and this is one of many reasons why I think the doctrine of universal sin is dangerous.

 

[Wildswanderer]

That concept of hell is utterly incoherent.
If a person does not believe god exists, how can being separated from that non-existent thing be any kind of suffering or torment.

Your beliefs don't create reality.
Once you realize you were wrong about God at are left completely alone, you will understand. Hell isn't a party with your friends. It's not a place with like minded people... it's described as outer darkness.

 

[Wildswanderer]

You said that without religion you would be selfish. Therefore you are innately selfish and it is your belief that prevents you from acting on your nature.
I have no religion but am not selfish

Of course you are. You have already proven that by admitting your morals are relative to your situation. And yes, we are born inherently selfish. Yes, our natural nature is selfish. Now you are starting to understand what we need saved from.

 

[Link]

Of course you are. You have already proven that by admitting your morals are relative to your situation. And yes, we are born inherently selfish. Yes, our natural nature is selfish. Now you are starting to understand what we need saved from.

To be fair, selfish nature whether God exists or not, is irrational. I know very caring and non-selfish atheists in my life and friends. Mathematically, caring for others more then yourself is correct. Caring for yourself is also correct, but sacrifice for others is mathematically correct.

Its hard for those without empathy to feel right away pain of others, but if they reason about it, they will come to same conclusions, whether they can relate to others or not through emotion, is irrelevant.

Since caring for humanity more then yourself is mathematically correct, even non-empaths emotion wise, should opt this path.

The equation is simple mathematically, more people matter then just you.

For those who want to say God is more important, they are right, but we can't feed God nor really benefit him in anyway, so really, to realize he is life of all life and that we should love all types of humans with all type of breathes from his essence, and not discriminate beauty of God over another beauty, and feeding poor and hungry, is feeding him, then this also math wise, the correct way to worship God.

God is in all things, to torture an animal for fun, is to torture God.

 

[Wildswanderer]

People say a lot of things. That doesn't make them so.

Not when they are dying. Deathbed testimony is considered reliable because at that point there's no motivation to lie.

 

[Wildswanderer]

So, Jesus told you to give your last loaf of bread to the bloke down the street who has been stealing your mail, rather than feeding your own starving children?
What a twat!

No but he did say we should give freely. Why are you making up a different story rather than replying to what I actually said?

 

[Wildswanderer]

First you say that god is not needed for a moral compass.
In the next breath you say that we only have a moral compass because of god.
Which is it?
(This is what happens when you base your position on received dogma rather than rational thinking.)

It's the same thing. You have a moral compass to some degree because God created you with one. So even if you don't believe in him, it's still there.

 

[Sheldon]

So in an atheists world what ultimate benefits are there in helping sick people survive? None that I can see... we all die anyway and our existence here, as you already admit, is pointless in a godless universe.

As an atheist I think helping others is worthwhile, it seem you don't without some imaginary posthumous reward. That sounds pretty sad to me.

 

[Sheldon]

It's the same thing. You have a moral compass to some degree because God created you with one. So even if you don't believe in him, it's still there.

Rubbish, another of your bare sweeping assertions. All animals that have evolved to live in societal groups exhibit morality. No deity is evidenced or required for this, and shoehorning one in violates Occam's razor.

 

[Sheldon]

But do we? If in a real survival situation, how many retain their ethics?
Anyway I'm not saying I would become some maniac if I didn't believe in God but I'm not so sure I would care about other people as much. It would make them less valuable. In fact, we would all just be animals.

This is a pretty damning indictment of religious morals. You really think people, and indeed other conscious animals are of no value, without an imaginary friend, again this is pretty sad.

I can't imagine how people live carrying that much contempt for other sentient or conscious animals, including human animals of course.

 

[Sheldon]

If you don't have the same ethics in a true survival situation... you never really had them.

This is demonstrably false, one only has to see the terrible actions humans are capable of when at war, yet they can and do become decent caring people afterward. As @Tinker Grey pointed out, our ethics and morality are not absolutes, they can and do change.

 

[Wildswanderer]

This is demonstrably false, one only has to see the terrible actions humans are capable of when at war, yet they can and do become decent caring people afterward. As @Tinker Grey pointed out, our ethics and morality are not absolutes, they can and do change.

Again, just because you can be caring doesn't mean you aren't evil.
The people who ran the gas chambers for Hitler probably hugged thier kids, too.

 

[Wildswanderer]

This is a pretty damning indictment of religious morals. You really think people, and indeed other conscious animals are of no value,

No, I don't think that at all. Because everyone is an eternal soul much more valuable than any bird or animal.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Rubbish, another of your bare sweeping assertions. All animals that have evolved to live in societal groups exhibit morality. No deity is evidenced or required for this, and shoehorning one in violates Occam's razor.

Animal " morality" is also situational.
So you just confirmed you think humans no better than dogs.

 

[Wildswanderer]

As an atheist I think helping others is worthwhile, it seem you don't without some imaginary posthumous reward. That sounds pretty sad to me.

It has nothing to do with my reward. That's a false assumption.
That's would be a wrong motivation for helping and therefore would not be rewarded.
One of the attributes of love according to scripture is that it's not self seeking.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Why do you think so many fail to ever let the God belief go?

It meets some need. And as time goes by, it becomes harder to leave it. But that's not you. You're 24 years old. Transitioning to humanism, for example, as I did at age 30 after ten years of Christianity, was difficult, but doable, just like quitting cigarettes three years earlier. I doubt that I could do either now in my late sixties.

if I were atheist, I fail to see how I would carry on

That's understandable. You sound like impending retirees. What will I do with my day without a job? But you'll just learn to live as if the world may have no gods and there be no afterlife, and this will be of lifetime value to you. It's liberating to accept the possibility that consciousness ends with death and all that goes with that. And then there is no need for religion to fill.

Did I mention cigarettes? They fulfill a need, too, but it's also a need they perpetuate (and in this case, also create), one a smoker would be better off without. Is religion really any different? Wean yourself from religion and see if you like it. Give it at least a year. You can always go back if the need persists.

Debate point: there is no point in life without God.

Isn't it the other way around? Life is the only point for unbelievers. What's the value of life to somebody hoping to get into heaven who believes he's saved? It's just a staging ground, and extra years are just a chance to lose salvation.

You have to determine your own purpose. Anybody else's purpose for you, like a boss, isn't your purpose. Yours would be to earn a paycheck. Likewise with the people who say that life would have no meaning or purpose if the universe were godless. Really? I have no desire to spend eternity praising deity. That may be what some deity's purpose for making me was, but that sounds like a meaningless life to me. It's not my purpose for myself.

 

[KWED]

Salam

It's out of retributive justice, anger, and vengeance.

Believers greatest fear is separation from God, to them that is the worst part of hell. I did not say it would be disbelievers greatest torment.

In the Quran, Allah bangs on about sending disbelievers to hell, not believers.
And yet, you claim that hell does not exist for disbelievers.
Go figure!

 

[KWED]

Ahh, you are there contrasting the so-called 'Scientism' approach from my 'all things considered' approach.

You are fine with scientism (only believe what can be proved) but as I've said I think that is an impoverishing way to look at things.

I believe what becomes most reasonable to believe 'all things considered' and not what I think I wat to believe.

Your "all things considered" approach is merely a way to ignore evidence and give weight to stories.
I appreciate that if your position has no evidence to support it, you will look for something else. Doesn't make it either true or rational.

 

[KWED]

Your beliefs don't create reality.

*BOOM!*
(the sound of a massive penny dropping)

Once you realize you were wrong about God at are left completely alone, you will understand. Hell isn't a party with your friends. It's not a place with like minded people... it's described as outer darkness.

Your beliefs don't create reality.

 

[KWED]

Of course you are. You have already proven that by admitting your morals are relative to your situation.

Quite the non sequitur there.
But go on, explain.

And yes, we are born inherently selfish. Yes, our natural nature is selfish.

Partly, but we are also inherently empathetic and altruistic. Most of us lean towards the latter rather than the former.
It may well be that your adherence to an essentially selfish ideology has led you to assume that everyone else is like you. We are not.

Now you are starting to understand what we need saved from.

I have long understood that we need to be saved from the sanctimonious paddlers of selfish, hypocritical ideologies based on ancient superstition (amongst other things). Your "arguments" merely confirm that.