Homosexuality and religious.

[Trailblazer]

Not optimistic. I am aware that you are simply saying red herring and choosing optimistic because you have nothing probative to add. Just as you will do so now.

The opinion held by atheists that homosexuality is not wrong is a personal opinion and not a fact.
The opinion held by believers that homosexuality is wrong is a belief and not a fact.

 

[dybmh]

Do you have examples of children of Baha'i parents becoming gay in their teens or as an adult?

Yes it was posted by @Dawnofhope .

Being Baha’i and Gay

"In high school I frequented libraries looking up with fierce — but ultimately futile — hopes that I would find evidence this hated trait was a phase I would grow out of or a condition that I could be cured of. Come to find out that curing doesn’t work, and overwhelmingly hurts those who try, increasing suicidal ideation when relapsing, and so forth.

“Okay,” I realized at some point, “So my unbidden but immovable homosexual desires are evil… gotcha. What did I do to be born evil again? Do I have to stay evil? Or can I just hide being evil and pretend to be good?” This latter means doing what gay men had done throughout the ages, hide it like crazy, deny it, have sex in secret, and marry a woman to really hide it? Sorry, to me that latter seems more evil than having sex with men."

Psychological harm is not the only kind of harm that can come to a person.
There are worse kinds of harm.

Spiritual harm cannot be objectively demonstrated. Psychological harm can.

 

[ppp]

Comparing torturing babies to depriving people of sex. I cannot think of anything more pathetic.

I didn't compare torturing babies to arbitrarily religious discrimination against a group of people ; though I could have in a most non-pathetic manner. What I compared is the method by which the immorality of either action is evaluated. You are reacting to your emotions at being contradicted, rather then the content of what is being said.

Got any way to prove it is a fact?

Were I ignorant of what a person meant, I would not feel that I was acting rationally by calling their actions pathetic. I guess you have no such inhibitions.

Yes.

Fact: something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:
fact

I have no idea why you think that contradicts anything I have said. Please explain.

 

[ppp]

The opinion held by atheists that homosexuality is not wrong is a personal opinion and not a fact.

There is so much wrong with that sentence. You just said that an opinion is an opinion. You also said that an opinion cannot be a fact.

The first is a tautology. The second is incorrect.

 

[KWED]

You are still not getting it.
You: "I am certain that homosexuality is acceptable and I cant think of any argument that would change my mind"
Me: "Then you're a bigot!"
You are a bigot because you are obstinately and unreasonably attached to your opinion regarding homosexuality.

bigot: a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.

You seem to be ignoring the bulk of the definition.
And even "obstinate" implies a refusal to entertain other arguments.
If you present a reasonable and cogent argument for why homosexuality is evil, shameful, unnatural, should be purged, etc - then I will consider it.
However, thus far all you have presented is "cuz god sez!"

Unfortunately, due to your problem with words and concepts, you won't be able to understand any of this.

 

[KWED]

But it can't be observed to be natural unless you on purpose differentiate it as natural. That is the bigoted part. That is the end game.

More denial of reality.
Homosexuality is observed in many species. It occurs naturally, in the natural world. Therefore it is natural. By definition.

What is your argument for it being unnatural? "Cuz god sez!", by any chance?

 

[KWED]

An argument against God would be in response to another's claim.
Preaching atheism is trying to convince a believer to abandon their faith. Preaching is telling someone what they "should" do.

Do many atheists tell religionists to abandon their faith? Not something I've noticed.
But surely, by definition, arguing that someone's belief is wrong it implying that they shouldn't hold that belief.

 

[KWED]

Like in all things, there is a balance to found, a balance that has been lost, but there is a balance that can again be reached.

Profound!

Without children, there is no human race, and well educated children are the future of the human race. We one and all should contribute to their upbringing and education, either by participating or by giving indirect support.

Any education that teaches children to believe that the world is under the control of invisible magic is not worth the paper it is written on.

 

[KWED]

Such is the quandary between the minds on men and God's will for humanity.
That divide will widen the scales will eventually tip and God's Will, will be done.

Is it possible for you to communicate in anything other than vague platitudes?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

It's unfortunate that you see this life choice as selfish. There are other ways to give to society than generating more children, better ways in my estimation if others are going to be generating the next generation of citizens.

Like in all things, there is a balance to found, a balance that has been lost, but there is a balance that can again be reached.

I don't see a connection between that comment and mine. And no offense intended, but so much of what you write sounds like a Chinese fortune cookie or a horoscope - upbeat generalizations that one must guess what it's referring to. I think you're about to regain some balance here:

Without children, there is no human race, and well educated children are the future of the human race. We one and all should contribute to their upbringing and education, either by participating or by giving indirect support.

Now you're changing your tune without owning your mistake. You described my position that one doesn't need to have or raise children as "very self orientated." I guess now it's sufficient to give indirect support. Of course it is, but that wasn't your initial position.

God designed man and woman to have sex together so they could produce children. How are so many people missing the obvious?

I don't believe the God part, and even if I did, I still wouldn't consider it my purpose nor make any moral judgement against anybody for choosing to not have children or to enjoy nonprocreative sex.

The opinion held by atheists that homosexuality is not wrong is a personal opinion and not a fact.

It is a fact to me as I define moral and immoral. One needs to demonstrate harm to call homosexuality immoral. Some opinions are facts, and some opinions are incorrect. What's an opinion is that is not a fact is that a deity condemned homosexuality, without which the condemnation of homosexuals is immoral.

Is it possible for you to communicate in anything other than vague platitudes?

I had to laugh upon reading this after posting something very similar moments ago.

 

[KWED]

It is natural but so what? Lots of things are natural.

natural: existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.
what does natural mean - Google Search

Bahai teachings claim it is unnatural. You claimed it is unnatural. Now you admit it is natural.
I would say that we are getting somewhere, but you'll only deny you said it on the next page.

 

[KWED]

It does however require sex between a man and a woman to produce a child.

Newsflash. They don't need to be married.
They don't even need to be in the same room!

 

[KWED]

The main reason is because God considers it a sin. That is enough reason for me.

Cuz god sez!

 

[dybmh]

Do many atheists tell religionists to abandon their faith? Not something I've noticed.

No, I don't see it either. I was just pointing out to the other poster that the staff here do not give atheists a free pass regarding preaching.

But surely, by definition, arguing that someone's belief is wrong it implying that they shouldn't hold that belief.

I don't usually see anyone saying a belief is wrong. I see them conclude that the belief is irrational. Then the one holding the belief is either offended or tries to explain the reasons for their belief trying to make it rational.

 

[KWED]

A man having sex with a man or a woman having sex with a woman can produce a child?
How does that work?

A gay man can have sex with a gay woman. Being gay doesn't change your reproductive biology, you know.

 

[Sheldon]

loverofhumanity said: ↑
Every child must have a mother and a father and to deprive it of either is in my view positively dangerous because both sexes are important not any one single sex.

In my view your subjective claim is not just wrong, but deeply pernicious, and therefore immoral.

However you may believe the moon is made of cheese if it makes you happy. what you may not do is tell others they must share your belief, or live their lives in any way according to your beliefs.

 

[Sheldon]

What matters to the rest of you is your personal opinion, which is no more correct than our belief.

The suffering and risk to life caused by bigotry and religious homophobia isn't JUST an opinion, it is amply supported by objective evidence.

The opinions expressed that gay people are immoral or an aberration is just that, merely an opinion, unsupported by any objective evidence, and relying solely on ignorance, dogma and doctrine.

 

[samtonga43]

Just too funny.

We seem to have reached the stage where even if we found a passage from Bahalluah that said "....

You know, I was trying to come up with a passage that was a degree more overtly homophobic than what is already in Bahai texts - and I couldn't think of anything!

Tb thinks that what you just said shows optimism re Bahai texts. You couldn't make this stuff up.

 

[samtonga43]

That is a red herring.

Not a red herring. It is a fact in exactly the same way that 'torturing babies is wrong' is a fact.

The opinion held by atheists that homosexuality is not wrong is a personal opinion and not a fact.

Exactly. Tb cannot see the principle underlying the words.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Now you're changing your tune without owning your mistake. You described my position that one doesn't need to have or raise children as "very self orientated." I guess now it's sufficient to give indirect support. Of course it is, but that wasn't your initial position.

I always reply in the short, never with the entirety. That would be the benefit of face to face discussion, issues can be clarified earlier.

There are books that can be added to that short early observation we have since been discussing, but I already offered you cleared this up after your first reply.

Please accept my apologies.

Regards Tony