Jesus - First Born?

[Brian2]

That is very interesting to see how you are thinking…

So if a child (a Son) is said to be exactly like his Father then, to you, that child has a beard, a deep voice, has a requirement to look after his family, is qualified to a high level of education… (which HIS FATHER taught him!) and is married?

I am talking about Jesus the Son of God and His Father.
Jesus is shown to be exactly like His Father and has the same glory as His Father in the NT.
The OT tells us that YHWH gives His glory to no other and that nobody else is comparable to YHWH.
So logically in the Bible, Jesus is being shown to be YHWH along with His Father.

 

[Brian2]

Correct, it is not a Biblical phrase nor is the concept Biblical. Correct, God is higher in every way than those He created - yet the doctrine of the Trinity brings Him down to the level of humanity which IMO is exchanging the glory of the immortal God to an image resembling mortal man.

It is not saying that God is a man, it is saying that God sent His Son to become a man, and it is something that God did for us so that we could be saved.
Through it all the Son suffered and His Father suffered watching His Son suffer.
The Son remains a man but I don't see that is going to limit His being Divine and has not limited His filling the entire universe. (Eph 4:10)
God remains God. God does not change and the scriptures also tell us that the Son has not changed through all of what happened and will not change. (Heb 13:8)
The Son was, is and will be always the perfect image of His Father.

And God is not higher in every way than the Son so logically the Son was not one of the created things, as the New Testament in various places, tells us. (eg Col 1:15,16)

 

[amazing grace]

It is not saying that God is a man, it is saying that God sent His Son to become a man, and it is something that God did for us so that we could be saved.
Through it all the Son suffered and His Father suffered watching His Son suffer.
The Son remains a man but I don't see that is going to limit His being Divine and has not limited His filling the entire universe. (Eph 4:10)
God remains God. God does not change and the scriptures also tell us that the Son has not changed through all of what happened and will not change. (Heb 13:8)
The Son was, is and will be always the perfect image of His Father.

And God is not higher in every way than the Son so logically the Son was not one of the created things, as the New Testament in various places, tells us. (eg Col 1:15,16)

If God sent His Son to become a man and if that man is "deity, i.e. God" then wouldn't that make God becoming a man?
Apparently, it did limit his "deity" because he could do nothing without God his Father.
Eph. 4:5-10 - "one Lord (Jesus Christ), one faith, one baptism, one God and Father [one God, the Father] of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore, it says, when he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men. (In saying, "He ascended"], what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth. He who descended [death and burial] is the one who also ascended [to God's right hand] far above all the heavens; that he might fill all things.)
I agree that God remains God - God is the Almighty, the only true God and He is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I agree that Jesus was the perfect image, copy, representation of His Father.

I disagree that "God is NOT higher in every way than the Son". God, being Jesus's Father would in and of itself make Him higher, superior than His Son as in all father/son relationship. Yes, again, Jesus is the perfect image, copy, representation of His Father.

He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and o n earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities----all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For IN him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. -----
What was created here? the heavens and the earth? NOPE - thrones, dominions, rulers or authorities (in connection with the world to come, i.e. heavens, invisible and with the church, i.e. earth, visible) - he is the head of the body, the church (But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.) . . . He is the beginning, the firstborn of all creation = the firstborn from the dead - IN Christ all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell and THROUGH him (Christ) all things were reconciled to God - this was done by the blood of his cross, i.e. his death and resurrection.

 

[bchalloner]

I think the Catholics are being a bit nitpicky. His confusion is easy for me to understand. His question centers over the word 'begotten' which is like being born but is in fact slightly different in meaning. Admittedly, Adam and Eve begat Cain and then Abel and then later, Seth and so on, but the precise meaning of 'begat' or 'begotten' is not quite 'born of'. Jesus is the eternally begotten Son, you might be thinking, because he was born of God the Father yes? Well he was - when he became incarnate by the virgin Mary in finite time and space. But eternally begotten just means he was always God's Son in infinite time and space, before becoming incarnate, including in the beginning when he was with God 'overseeing' the creation of the world, and after being incarnate dying on the cross and ascending into heaven. The answer to the question to whether God created Jesus in the beginning, before he was begotten of the Holy Ghost (who is God) and Mary, is no. He existed with God in the beginning and was of one substance with God, while not being of one person. We can see that the miraculous conception of Mary was not quite like an ordinary human birth, and unless you argue that all of us had some 'eternally begotten' existence like Christ before we were born, it was really quite unique. But really we are adopted Sons of God, not like Jesus who is of one substance with the Father and reigns over creation.

 

[Soapy]

I am talking about Jesus the Son of God and His Father.
Jesus is shown to be exactly like His Father and has the same glory as His Father in the NT.
The OT tells us that YHWH gives His glory to no other and that nobody else is comparable to YHWH.
So logically in the Bible, Jesus is being shown to be YHWH along with His Father.

You keep saying that Jesus is shown to be YHWH.

But YHWH is the NAME OF THE GOD.
And JESUS is the NAME OF THE SON.

YHWH is a NAME which carries the meaning of ‘ALWAYS WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE’. This signifies by the saying in the book of Revelation where GOD says:

• ‘I am he that is, was, and always will be’

This starkly contrasts with what Jesus Christ says:

• ‘I am he WHO WAS DEAD, but am NOW ALIVE ETERNALLY’

It’s clear that Jesus was dead at one point in his life. Anyone who was dead at some point can never be said to be ALIVE FROM ETERNITY to Eternity, as GOD says of himself.

Moreover, Jesus CHANGES MANY TIMES in his life by any belief and far more by trinity belief … GOD NEVER CHANGES AT ANY TIME.

Jesus ‘GREW IN STATURE AND KNOWLEDGE’.
Goddoesnt grow nor does he acquire new knowledge: God is OMNISCIENT.

God is consistently greater than Jesus.
Can he who receives be greater than he who gives?

Can he who is taught be greater than he who teaches the one who is taught.

Jesus is taught by God - yet you say Jesus IS God!?

Jesus is granted many things FROM GOD - yet you say Jesus IS GOD!?

 

[Soapy]

He existed with God in the beginning and was of one substance with God, while not being of one person.

What????

Jesus existed WITH GOD?

• “Eternally begotten just means he was always God's Son, including in the beginning when he was with God 'overseeing' creation,”

What is a ‘Son’? If Jesus was always born of God … nah! Eternally born of God…? That’s the excuse Trinitarians use when they cannot explain how Jesus came to be WITH GOD in the beginning.

Truth is that there was no such ‘Eternal begetting’ - no first century Christian ever taught such a monstrosity - no Jew or Israelite professed any such nonsense. Jesus Christ never made any such claim.

A ‘Son’, in scriptural terms, means:

• “One who does the works of his Father’

Jesus told the Jews that ‘God is my Father’ because ‘I do the works he sent me to do… if you don’t believe me then at least believe in the works that I do!’ (Paraphrased)

Scriptures tells us that we are all ‘Sons of God’ if we follow the spirit of God.

Holy angels are ‘Sons of God’ because holy angels always do the works God gives them to do.

We, as mankind, can be ‘Sons of God’ if we submit our Will to that of our spiritual Father, God.

 

[bchalloner]

You keep saying that Jesus is shown to be YHWH.

But YHWH is the NAME OF THE GOD.
And JESUS is the NAME OF THE SON.

YHWH is a NAME which carries the meaning of ‘ALWAYS WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE’. This signifies by the saying in the book of Revelation where GOD says:

• ‘I am he that is, was, and always will be’

This starkly contrasts with what Jesus Christ says:

• ‘I am he WHO WAS DEAD, but am NOW ALIVE ETERNALLY’

It’s clear that Jesus was dead at one point in his life. Anyone who was dead at some point can never be said to be ALIVE FROM ETERNITY to Eternity, as GOD says of himself.

Moreover, Jesus CHANGES MANY TIMES in his life by any belief and far more by trinity belief … GOD NEVER CHANGES AT ANY TIME.

Jesus ‘GREW IN STATURE AND KNOWLEDGE’.
Goddoesnt grow nor does he acquire new knowledge: God is OMNISCIENT.

God is consistently greater than Jesus.
Can he who receives be greater than he who gives?

Can he who is taught be greater than he who teaches the one who is taught.

Jesus is taught by God - yet you say Jesus IS God!?

Jesus is granted many things FROM GOD - yet you say Jesus IS GOD!?

Some of these are easy objections to answer, some not as easy. Jesus did grow in stature and knowledge because he was human. But the Christianity also teaches that he was God. How Jesus could be both man and God, finite and infinite, is an unfathomable mystery.

 

[Soapy]

Some of these are easy objections to answer, some not as easy. Jesus did grow in stature and knowledge because he was human. But the Christianity also teaches that he was God. How Jesus could be both man and God, finite and infinite, is an unfathomable mystery.

It’s unfathomable because it isn’t true. Trinity got its knickers in a twist and cannot unravel it and had to come up with some crazy story that even today it, itself, cannot understand. As such, it turns things on its head and says that anyone who doesn’t believe the lie of trinity has too tiny a brain to understand the trinity God - yes, if insults true believers hoping to make them feel ashamed of not understanding what is ‘INCOMPREHENSIBLE’ (trinity’s own word of the millenia)

 

[Brian2]

If God sent His Son to become a man and if that man is "deity, i.e. God" then wouldn't that make God becoming a man?
Apparently, it did limit his "deity" because he could do nothing without God his Father.

Yes Deity was sent to earth by God and submits to His Father both as the Son of God and as a man.
Sounds like "The Angel (messenger) of the LORD" being sent by YHWH to earth in the OT times and being recognised as YHWH and identifying Himself as YHWH.

Eph. 4:5-10 - "one Lord (Jesus Christ), one faith, one baptism, one God and Father [one God, the Father] of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore, it says, when he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men. (In saying, "He ascended"], what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth. He who descended [death and burial] is the one who also ascended [to God's right hand] far above all the heavens; that he might fill all things.)
I agree that God remains God - God is the Almighty, the only true God and He is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I agree that Jesus was the perfect image, copy, representation of His Father.

I disagree that "God is NOT higher in every way than the Son". God, being Jesus's Father would in and of itself make Him higher, superior than His Son as in all father/son relationship. Yes, again, Jesus is the perfect image, copy, representation of His Father.

A son is not necessarily inferior to his father. The Son however submits to His Father who also became His God when He became a man.
In the case of Jesus and His Father we are told that Jesus is the exact image of the invisible God, not inferior at all, just the Son of His Father.

He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and o n earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities----all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For IN him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. -----
What was created here? the heavens and the earth? NOPE - thrones, dominions, rulers or authorities (in connection with the world to come, i.e. heavens, invisible and with the church, i.e. earth, visible) - he is the head of the body, the church (But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.) . . . He is the beginning, the firstborn of all creation = the firstborn from the dead - IN Christ all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell and THROUGH him (Christ) all things were reconciled to God - this was done by the blood of his cross, i.e. his death and resurrection.

ALL THINGS in heaven and on earth. The angels and their hierarchies, the stars and planets, life on earth, rocks, dirt, water etc etc everything, and they were created through and for Him, and He is before all of them.
And it is not a prophecy about a future creation, that is in your imagination and to justify your beliefs.
God is the one who has reached out to and paid the price for us and our sins. He has not created someone to do the work and pay that price for Him.

 

[Brian2]

You keep saying that Jesus is shown to be YHWH.

But YHWH is the NAME OF THE GOD.
And JESUS is the NAME OF THE SON.

Jesus is the name given to the human Son.
And yes Jesus is shown to be YHWH. I not only say it, I show it from the scriptures.
All you do otoh is make fun of what I say, and so of what the scriptures say.

YHWH is a NAME which carries the meaning of ‘ALWAYS WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE’. This signifies by the saying in the book of Revelation where GOD says:

• ‘I am he that is, was, and always will be’

This starkly contrasts with what Jesus Christ says:

• ‘I am he WHO WAS DEAD, but am NOW ALIVE ETERNALLY’

It’s clear that Jesus was dead at one point in his life. Anyone who was dead at some point can never be said to be ALIVE FROM ETERNITY to Eternity, as GOD says of himself.

Death of a human does not mean going out of existence. After the death of the body the soul still is living (Matt 10:28)

Moreover, Jesus CHANGES MANY TIMES in his life by any belief and far more by trinity belief … GOD NEVER CHANGES AT ANY TIME.

Jesus ‘GREW IN STATURE AND KNOWLEDGE’.
Goddoesnt grow nor does he acquire new knowledge: God is OMNISCIENT.

I cannot help it if the scriptures tell us that Jesus has not changed and will not. (Heb 1:12, Heb 13:8)
He was and is and always will be the exact imprint of the nature/essence of God.

God is consistently greater than Jesus.
Can he who receives be greater than he who gives?

Can he who is taught be greater than he who teaches the one who is taught.

Jesus is taught by God - yet you say Jesus IS God!?

Jesus is granted many things FROM GOD - yet you say Jesus IS GOD!?

I show you the scriptures that show us that Jesus is YHWH and you make false statements about Jesus based on His humanity when He came to be a man.

 

[amazing grace]

Yes Deity was sent to earth by God and submits to His Father both as the Son of God and as a man.
Sounds like "The Angel (messenger) of the LORD" being sent by YHWH to earth in the OT times and being recognised as YHWH and identifying Himself as YHWH.

So, God was sent to earth by God and submits to himself as His own Son and as a man.
Or "deity", as in another God sent to earth by God that submits to God His Father, both as the Son of God and as a man?
The Angel of the LORD was actually an angel; a messenger sent by Yahweh (God) in the OT and yes, was recognised as Yahweh's (God's) authorized agent, i.e. messenger and in being Yahweh's (God's) authorized agent spoke as (for) Yahweh (God) and acted in Yahweh's (God's) stead. There is a law/principle is in place here and that is the Jewish law of agency - "An agent is described as one who has been “authorized to act for or in the place of another.” In Hebraic terms, the agent or the “one sent” is called the shaliah (also shaliach, saliah, salah[2]). The word comes from the verb shelach which means to send. James McGrath, professor and New Testament scholar writes: Agency was an important part of every day life in the ancient world. Individuals such as prophets and angels mentioned in the Jewish Scriptures were thought of as ‘agents’ of God. And the key idea regarding agency in the ancient world appears to be summarized in the phrase from rabbinic literature so often quoted in these contexts: “The one sent is like the one who sent him.”

A son is not necessarily inferior to his father. The Son however submits to His Father who also became His God when He became a man.
In the case of Jesus and His Father we are told that Jesus is the exact image of the invisible God, not inferior at all, just the Son of His Father.

A son is inferior to his father. A son is taught/told by his father what to do and what not to do.
So, the Son who is "deity" (God) submitted to "deity" (God) who was His Father (God) which "deity" (God) became his God when that "deity" (God) became a man?
Yes, I agree that Jesus was the exact image, copy, representation of the invisible God who submitted to God his Father which through that submitting would imply that the Son was inferior to God his Father. (submit: accept or yield to a superior force or to the authority or will of another person)

ALL THINGS in heaven and on earth. The angels and their hierarchies, the stars and planets, life on earth, rocks, dirt, water etc etc everything, and they were created through and for Him, and He is before all of them.
And it is not a prophecy about a future creation, that is in your imagination and to justify your beliefs.
God is the one who has reached out to and paid the price for us and our sins. He has not created someone to do the work and pay that price for Him.

Again, you are reading into the verse what is not there. - what was created was thrones, dominions, rulers or authorities. That is what Jesus is creating as the firstborn from the dead, the head of the body, the church.

God paid the price to Himself for us and our sins????

 

[Soapy]

Jesus is the name given to the human Son.
And yes Jesus is shown to be YHWH. I not only say it, I show it from the scriptures.
All you do otoh is make fun of what I say, and so of what the scriptures say.

Jesus is never shown to be YHWH and there is no ‘showing from the scriptures’.
(more at the end)

Making fun of you.., No! I’m exasperated that you claim such a nonsense as the only suggestion of Jesus Christ being called YHWH is AT THE END OF TIME when Jesus is GIVEN A NEW NAME thag is above all other names…

Brian2, how can Jesus be given a NEW NAME that is above all other names if Jesus IS GOD when there WERE NO OTHER NAMES. Even the God of the Israelites, the Father; The ONE TRUE GOD, did not give HIMSELF a name until Moses asked him for one. GOD NAMED HIMSELF from an expression - a contraction of that expression:

• “‘I am what I am‘ therefore tell the people that ‘I am […]’ has sent you”

That is no different than saying, ‘The rock of your salvation’ is shortened to ‘The rock’. “I am” which is a single word in Hebrew “YHWH”, is His name FOR ALL ETERNITY from that moment forward. Before that time the God of the Israelites DID NOT NEED A NAME because the Israelite only knew him, and him alone, as God. But after spending far too much time among heathens and Pagans, who believed in MANY GOD, each of which had personal names, the Israelites DEMANDED a name for THEIR GOD so as to distinguish their God from pagan Gods in conversations, disputes, arguments, and worship.

And that is why in contemporary times we actually do not need to prominence the name of our one true God since, as Christians, we only believe in this one God.. what we disagree about is the trinity ideology that this one God is actually Three persons!! Or three aspects / facets of a one God… I believe in ONE GOD who is ONE PERSON

Death of a human does not mean going out of existence. After the death of the body the soul still is living (Matt 10:28)

Brian2…. We ALL KNOW that the SPIRIT of a man RESTS in dormancy WITH GOD who gave the Spirit to the man. Jesus was no different to EVERY MAN who has ever died!
And we ALL KNOW that AS LONG AS THE SPIRIT EXISTS the PERSON EXISTS… which is the same for all Spirit creatures.
DEATH is just a human way to say that we (thd living - Spirit in body!) cannot communicate with that person who has ‘passed’, who’s Spirit is in dormancy with God separated from the body.

Brian2, you know all of this. Why do you strain the argument making an issue of a well known situation? You aren’t the only trinitarian who tries the old deception of claiming anyone says that death is a ‘NON-EXISTENCE’ of a person… where NO ONE EVER said any such thing… indeed, how can there be a resurrection if there is no existence after death. Are you trying to claim a Pharisee belief???

I cannot help it if the scriptures tell us that Jesus has not changed and will not. (Heb 1:12, Heb 13:8)
He was and is and always will be the exact imprint of the nature/essence of God.

Well, you know that isn’t true. It’s written in the scriptures by Trinitarians who see that there is no real way to claim deity for Jesus so invention is their way. In fact, your presentation shows no conviction on the matter - even your conscience tells you it’s not true…. Come on, Brian, JESUS, even by trinity claims:

1. Gave up being GOD to
2. BECOME A MAN
3. GREW as a child to a man
4. Learnt life lessons
5. His body was scourged
6. His body was punctured by a doear
7. His body WAS MADE TO BE IMMORTAL after he was resurrected
8. He was MADE TO BE a SPIRITUAL MAN

And you say he didn’t change at all.

I show you the scriptures that show us that Jesus is YHWH and you make false statements about Jesus based on His humanity when He came to be a man

‘YHWH’ is the sole personal name of the Israelite God. The man born to the Virgin Mary by the power of YHWH has a personal name of ‘Jesus’. And, in fact ‘Jesus’ is only an anglicised version of ‘Joshua’ which itself is properly ‘Yeshua’ in Hebrew. So if you are claiming that YESHUA is God then YESHUA, HE THAT SAVED the Israelites into GOD’s promised land, is ALSO GOD; YHWH, by your ideology. But we both know that is nonsense…

The Angel of the Lord is more likely to be ‘Gabriel’: ‘Who stands in the presence of God’: The LORD’s Angel. But you are saying that “JESUS” is the LORD’s angel … YHWH’s angel … the LORD’s angel is YHWH?
GOD is an angel?? Where do you get your belief from? None of it makes any sense at all?

.

It matters nothing at all that it is his humanity that changed… He changed … and God does not change!

Also, Jesus dying is ‘Death’. By anything in humanity, a separation of the spirit from the body is called ‘Death’. If you know how to read your scriptures you will see that Jesus is:

1. a ‘Man’ in Heaven. And it was
2. a Man that died …
3. a Man that was resurrected …
4. a Man that was raised up to Heaven…
5. a Man that was ‘Brought to the ancient of days seated on the throne’ …
6. a Man that will be returning which all eyes will see…
7. a Man who will takes his seat on the throne of the Man, King David
8. a Man that will rule over all creation

 

[Brian2]

So, God was sent to earth by God and submits to himself as His own Son and as a man.
Or "deity", as in another God sent to earth by God that submits to God His Father, both as the Son of God and as a man?
The Angel of the LORD was actually an angel; a messenger sent by Yahweh (God) in the OT and yes, was recognised as Yahweh's (God's) authorized agent, i.e. messenger and in being Yahweh's (God's) authorized agent spoke as (for) Yahweh (God) and acted in Yahweh's (God's) stead. There is a law/principle is in place here and that is the Jewish law of agency - "An agent is described as one who has been “authorized to act for or in the place of another.” In Hebraic terms, the agent or the “one sent” is called the shaliah (also shaliach, saliah, salah[2]). The word comes from the verb shelach which means to send. James McGrath, professor and New Testament scholar writes: Agency was an important part of every day life in the ancient world. Individuals such as prophets and angels mentioned in the Jewish Scriptures were thought of as ‘agents’ of God. And the key idea regarding agency in the ancient world appears to be summarized in the phrase from rabbinic literature so often quoted in these contexts: “The one sent is like the one who sent him.”

Shaliah has the authority of the one who sent and angels from God have that authority even when they identify as Gabriel or Michael etc. But I am talking about "The Angel of the Lord" who identifies as YHWH and whom is identified as YHWH. In all cultures probably messengers can speak for the one who sent them but not speak as the one who sent them. There is a difference.

A son is inferior to his father. A son is taught/told by his father what to do and what not to do.
So, the Son who is "deity" (God) submitted to "deity" (God) who was His Father (God) which "deity" (God) became his God when that "deity" (God) became a man?
Yes, I agree that Jesus was the exact image, copy, representation of the invisible God who submitted to God his Father which through that submitting would imply that the Son was inferior to God his Father. (submit: accept or yield to a superior force or to the authority or will of another person)

I don't see that the Father is teaching the Son how to do things. That whole thing is authority and the Son sumits to His Father's authority.
And since He became a man, His Father also has become His God.
None of this is saying that the Son is inferior to the Father, just that the Father has authority over His Son.
And of course the Son could at any time decide that He does not want to do that any more, but has not done that and being just like His Father, would not do that.

Again, you are reading into the verse what is not there. - what was created was thrones, dominions, rulers or authorities. That is what Jesus is creating as the firstborn from the dead, the head of the body, the church.

The verse says that through Jesus all things were created, all things in heaven and earth, visible and invisible. There things were created a long time ago at the creation.
You are the one who wants to say that the passage actually says that all things will be created through Jesus.
So who is reading into the verse what is not there?

God paid the price to Himself for us and our sins????

For justice sake, if someone was to pay a ransom for the lives of people sentenced to death the ransom would be what was determined by the relevant authority and that authority would make sure that the ransom was paid. In this case the authority is God and the price paid and accepted as being the ransom is the blood/life of His sinless human Son.

 

[Brian2]

Jesus is never shown to be YHWH and there is no ‘showing from the scriptures’.
(more at the end)

Making fun of you.., No! I’m exasperated that you claim such a nonsense as the only suggestion of Jesus Christ being called YHWH is AT THE END OF TIME when Jesus is GIVEN A NEW NAME thag is above all other names…

Brian2, how can Jesus be given a NEW NAME that is above all other names if Jesus IS GOD when there WERE NO OTHER NAMES. Even the God of the Israelites, the Father; The ONE TRUE GOD, did not give HIMSELF a name until Moses asked him for one. GOD NAMED HIMSELF from an expression - a contraction of that expression:

• “‘I am what I am‘ therefore tell the people that ‘I am […]’ has sent you”

That is no different than saying, ‘The rock of your salvation’ is shortened to ‘The rock’. “I am” which is a single word in Hebrew “YHWH”, is His name FOR ALL ETERNITY from that moment forward. Before that time the God of the Israelites DID NOT NEED A NAME because the Israelite only knew him, and him alone, as God. But after spending far too much time among heathens and Pagans, who believed in MANY GOD, each of which had personal names, the Israelites DEMANDED a name for THEIR GOD so as to distinguish their God from pagan Gods in conversations, disputes, arguments, and worship.

And that is why in contemporary times we actually do not need to prominence the name of our one true God since, as Christians, we only believe in this one God.. what we disagree about is the trinity ideology that this one God is actually Three persons!! Or three aspects / facets of a one God… I believe in ONE GOD who is ONE PERSON

So do you deny that the man Jesus inherited a name and that the name is the name above all names?
How do you understand those scriptures. (Heb 1:4, Phil 2:9)

Brian2…. We ALL KNOW that the SPIRIT of a man RESTS in dormancy WITH GOD who gave the Spirit to the man. Jesus was no different to EVERY MAN who has ever died!
And we ALL KNOW that AS LONG AS THE SPIRIT EXISTS the PERSON EXISTS… which is the same for all Spirit creatures.
DEATH is just a human way to say that we (thd living - Spirit in body!) cannot communicate with that person who has ‘passed’, who’s Spirit is in dormancy with God separated from the body.

Brian2, you know all of this. Why do you strain the argument making an issue of a well known situation? You aren’t the only trinitarian who tries the old deception of claiming anyone says that death is a ‘NON-EXISTENCE’ of a person… where NO ONE EVER said any such thing… indeed, how can there be a resurrection if there is no existence after death. Are you trying to claim a Pharisee belief???

It is good that you do not say that a person goes out of existence at the death of the body. Some do say that is the case (JWs and @amazing grace for example.
However you did say: It’s clear that Jesus was dead at one point in his life. Anyone who was dead at some point can never be said to be ALIVE FROM ETERNITY to Eternity, as GOD says of himself.
So I was pointing out to you that a man being physically dead does not mean that he is all dead, his soul is still alive (Matt 10:28)

Well, you know that isn’t true. It’s written in the scriptures by Trinitarians who see that there is no real way to claim deity for Jesus so invention is their way. In fact, your presentation shows no conviction on the matter - even your conscience tells you it’s not true…. Come on, Brian, JESUS, even by trinity claims:

1. Gave up being GOD to
2. BECOME A MAN
3. GREW as a child to a man
4. Learnt life lessons
5. His body was scourged
6. His body was punctured by a doear
7. His body WAS MADE TO BE IMMORTAL after he was resurrected
8. He was MADE TO BE a SPIRITUAL MAN

And you say he didn’t change at all.

Not me, the scriptures tell us that He has not and will not change. (Heb 1:12, 13:8)
I don't want to hear a mocking of those scriptures, I want your explanation of them.

‘YHWH’ is the sole personal name of the Israelite God. The man born to the Virgin Mary by the power of YHWH has a personal name of ‘Jesus’. And, in fact ‘Jesus’ is only an anglicised version of ‘Joshua’ which itself is properly ‘Yeshua’ in Hebrew. So if you are claiming that YESHUA is God then YESHUA, HE THAT SAVED the Israelites into GOD’s promised land, is ALSO GOD; YHWH, by your ideology. But we both know that is nonsense…

The Angel of the Lord is more likely to be ‘Gabriel’: ‘Who stands in the presence of God’: The LORD’s Angel. But you are saying that “JESUS” is the LORD’s angel … YHWH’s angel … the LORD’s angel is YHWH?
GOD is an angel?? Where do you get your belief from? None of it makes any sense at all?

If Gabriel is "The Angel of YHWH" why did he not speak as if he was YHWH or identify himself as YHWH or be identified as YHWH as The Angel of YHWH has done?
And you do know that "angel" means messenger.

 

[Soapy]

Brian2, I know there are those who act on behalf of the deceiver. They are called “Devil’s Advocates”. You fit that role admirably.

So do you deny that the man Jesus inherited a name and that the name is the name above all names?
How do you understand those scriptures. (Heb 1:4, Phil 2:9)

Jesus inherits the name above all names AFTER he has accomplished all that GOD sent him to accomplish both on earth and in Heaven.

You say that Jesus was ALREADY CALLED by that name above all names even before he was called into service by God… in fact even before GOD HIMSELF gave himself that name!

It doesn’t seem to matter to you how many times you fall way short of truth, you just keep right on being deceiving.

Do you not understand what the wage for your deceitful presentation is?

Do you just think it is fun to be the devil’s advocate?

It is good that you do not say that a person goes out of existence at the death of the body. Some do say that is the case (JWs and @amazing grace for example.
However you did say: It’s clear that Jesus was dead at one point in his life. Anyone who was dead at some point can never be said to be ALIVE FROM ETERNITY to Eternity, as GOD says of himself.
So I was pointing out to you that a man being physically dead does not mean that he is all dead, his soul is still alive (Matt 10:28)

What you just said, as usual, makes no sense!!
What answer should I expect from you if I ask if you celebrate Easter in which Christian’s commemorate THE CRUCIFIXION AND DEATH of Jesus Christ?

And do you believe that Jesus was resurrected FROM THE DEAD three days later?

And what say you of this verse:

• ‘For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.’ (1 Cor 15:21)

If Jesus did not die then how can there be a resurrection of him? Do you believe the scriptures that says that YHWH raised up Jesus Christ from the dead? Yet you say Jesus didn’t die? Brian2…..!!!?

Not me, the scriptures tell us that He has not and will not change. (Heb 1:12, 13:8)
I don't want to hear a mocking of those scriptures, I want your explanation of them.

You feel you are being mocked… it’s your conscience knowing what you are doing is wrong!!! Guilt often makes a person feel mocked if they sorely wish to deceive themselves as you are doing.

Hebrews 1:12 is speaking about Almighty God. The trinitarian translators modified the reading to try to make it seem like it’s speaking about Jesus Christ but it’s clear that it’s really about God.

Hebrews 13:8 is clearly not true… or at least only the part that states that “JESUS CHRIST” is the same tomorrow … Jesus Christ was MADE IMMORTAL AFTER GOD RAISED HIM UP FROM THE DEAD… never to taste death again. For sure ‘JESUS’ did not exist as CHRIST until he was anointed BY GOD.

So, Jesus Christ’s claim is true:

• ‘I am he that was dead BUT AM NOW ALIVE FOREVERMORE!’
• “But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.” (Hebrews 2:9)

And the very next verse the Trinitarians missed out from altering - it tells the truth:

• “In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.” (Hebrews 2:10)

You see that the verse attributes the truth that if is GOD who created all things and FOR WHOM and THROUGH WHOM EVERYTHING EXISTS. And that GOD made the PIONEER of the salvation of the believers (Which is Jesus Christ), perfect through what he, Jesus Christ, suffered.

If Gabriel is "The Angel of YHWH" why did he not speak as if he was YHWH or identify himself as YHWH or be identified as YHWH as The Angel of YHWH has done?
And you do know that "angel" means messenger.

What are you saying, Brian2? Are you suggesting that the Angel of the LORD should pretend to be almighty God???
Also, I did not say that the Angel of the Lord IS GABRIEL. I only said it MAY BE as Gabriel was also shown to be particular close to God in favour and placement in the Heavenly stations of angels:

• “In all their distress he too was distressed, and the angel of his presence saved them. In his love and mercy he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old.” (Isaiah 63:9)
• “The angel said to him, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news.” (Luke 1:19)

An angel, a holy Angel, is a messenger, as you say. The messenger SPEAKS THE WORDS or CARRIES OUT THE TASK that he is sent to speak or do. He speaks of acts AS IF HE WERE the SENDER. That does not make him the sender….

Brian2, PLEASE STOP THIS NONSENSE. You know well what you are doing and seem to enjoy your advocate role too much… You are like talking with a naughty child whose only purpose is to act against good order and sense.

 

[amazing grace]

Shaliah has the authority of the one who sent and angels from God have that authority even when they identify as Gabriel or Michael etc. But I am talking about "The Angel of the Lord" who identifies as YHWH and whom is identified as YHWH. In all cultures probably messengers can speak for the one who sent them but not speak as the one who sent them. There is a difference.

God called via His agent, the angel Ex. 3:4 - that is not to say that God did not actually speak to Moses in the dialogue. When God gives the authority for someone to act and speak for Him, they are acting and speaking AS Him.

I don't see that the Father is teaching the Son how to do things. That whole thing is authority and the Son sumits to His Father's authority.
And since He became a man, His Father also has become His God.
None of this is saying that the Son is inferior to the Father, just that the Father has authority over His Son.
And of course the Son could at any time decide that He does not want to do that any more, but has not done that and being just like His Father, would not do that.

So, Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. John 8:28
Jesus was a man from the beginning of his existence via his conception and birth. God the Father was always his Father.
Jesus was inferior in his status as a Son, and ability to do anything because every work he did was God his Father working through him - everyone and everything is inferior to Almighty God, their Creator.

The verse says that through Jesus all things were created, all things in heaven and earth, visible and invisible. There things were created a long time ago at the creation.
You are the one who wants to say that the passage actually says that all things will be created through Jesus.
So who is reading into the verse what is not there?

Are you just ignoring "what" is being created? Are you just ignoring that the context is referring to the resurrected Christ and what is the "all things created/being created" by the resurrected Christ? "will be created" is different from "what is being created" - Jesus went to prepare a place for us and that is what he is doing.

For justice sake, if someone was to pay a ransom for the lives of people sentenced to death the ransom would be what was determined by the relevant authority and that authority would make sure that the ransom was paid. In this case the authority is God and the price paid and accepted as being the ransom is the blood/life of His sinless human Son.

I do not deny that Jesus died for the penalty of sin - A man sinned therefore a man had to pay the penalty to reconcile mankind back to God.
But the thing is you do not actually believe that a real man paid the price for that sin - What you believe is "God had to come down to earth AS a man" to pay the sentence given to humanity. The thing is an immortal being cannot die nor shed blood - it took a human Son of God having the ability to die, truly die for our judgment to be satisfied.
Your true belief can be seen in your actual first response: God is the one who has reached out to and paid the price for us and our sins. He has not created someone to do the work and pay that price for Him.

 

[Brian2]

Jesus inherits the name above all names AFTER he has accomplished all that GOD sent him to accomplish both on earth and in Heaven.

You say that Jesus was ALREADY CALLED by that name above all names even before he was called into service by God… in fact even before GOD HIMSELF gave himself that name!

It doesn’t seem to matter to you how many times you fall way short of truth, you just keep right on being deceiving.

Do you not understand what the wage for your deceitful presentation is?

Do you just think it is fun to be the devil’s advocate?

We don't know what the Father or Son were called in eternity, or if they used names.
What I say is that Jesus has been identified as God and YHWH who laid the foundations of the earth and spread out the heavens,,,,,,,,,,,,,, whatever their names were then.
The human Son of God, the one to whom God said "You will be my Son and I will be your father" (Psalm 2) did as humans do and inherited things from His Father. But of course He already owned those things (John 16:15) which in a human sense He was going to inherit.
In eternity there was no need for the Father to actually father His Son who was as powerful and knowledgeable etc as He anyway. It was as a man that the Father actually became His Father, having begotten Him and taught the Son stuff etc.--was to Him, a father.

What you just said, as usual, makes no sense!!
What answer should I expect from you if I ask if you celebrate Easter in which Christian’s commemorate THE CRUCIFIXION AND DEATH of Jesus Christ?

And do you believe that Jesus was resurrected FROM THE DEAD three days later?

And what say you of this verse:

• ‘For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.’ (1 Cor 15:21)

If Jesus did not die then how can there be a resurrection of him? Do you believe the scriptures that says that YHWH raised up Jesus Christ from the dead? Yet you say Jesus didn’t die? Brian2…..!!!?

I am just pointing out that death of our body does not mean that we go out of existence and also does not mean that out spiritual soul dies when the Body dies. (Matt 10:28)
Jesus tells us that in Matt 10:28 but you want to ignore that.
Anyway when Jesus body died, His soul still lived.
It's a matter of understanding what "death" means.

Hebrews 1:12 is speaking about Almighty God. The trinitarian translators modified the reading to try to make it seem like it’s speaking about Jesus Christ but it’s clear that it’s really about God.

It's clear that the quote in Psalm 102 is about God, and it is clear that this is applied to Jesus in the New Testament.
It is saying what other NT passages say, that Jesus was involved in the creation, as the Son of God. And of course since the OT tells us that it is YHWH who did those things alone, (Isa 44:24) then Heb 1:10-12 is telling us that Jesus is YHWH.
Of course you have to claim that trinitarian translations are wrong even though the Jehovah's Witness translation has the same thing.

Hebrews 13:8 is clearly not true… or at least only the part that states that “JESUS CHRIST” is the same tomorrow … Jesus Christ was MADE IMMORTAL AFTER GOD RAISED HIM UP FROM THE DEAD… never to taste death again. For sure ‘JESUS’ did not exist as CHRIST until he was anointed BY GOD.

So, Jesus Christ’s claim is true:

• ‘I am he that was dead BUT AM NOW ALIVE FOREVERMORE!’
• “But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.” (Hebrews 2:9)

And the very next verse the Trinitarians missed out from altering - it tells the truth:

• “In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.” (Hebrews 2:10)

You see that the verse attributes the truth that if is GOD who created all things and FOR WHOM and THROUGH WHOM EVERYTHING EXISTS. And that GOD made the PIONEER of the salvation of the believers (Which is Jesus Christ), perfect through what he, Jesus Christ, suffered.

The man Jesus was made perfect because His fleshly body was raised to be His resurrection body. But it was and is the same Divine Son of God with the same nature and glory etc of His Father who was with the Father in heaven before coming to earth and who came to earth and is not back in heaven,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, unchanged, still having the unchanging nature of His Father.

What are you saying, Brian2? Are you suggesting that the Angel of the LORD should pretend to be almighty God???
Also, I did not say that the Angel of the Lord IS GABRIEL. I only said it MAY BE as Gabriel was also shown to be particular close to God in favour and placement in the Heavenly stations of angels:

• “In all their distress he too was distressed, and the angel of his presence saved them. In his love and mercy he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old.” (Isaiah 63:9)
• “The angel said to him, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news.” (Luke 1:19)

An angel, a holy Angel, is a messenger, as you say. The messenger SPEAKS THE WORDS or CARRIES OUT THE TASK that he is sent to speak or do. He speaks of acts AS IF HE WERE the SENDER. That does not make him the sender….

Brian2, PLEASE STOP THIS NONSENSE. You know well what you are doing and seem to enjoy your advocate role too much… You are like talking with a naughty child whose only purpose is to act against good order and sense.

It is you who seems to be saying that the angel of the Lord was pretending to be God and that those who identified Him as God were just wrong.
Neither Michael nor Gabriel speak as if they are God and are not identified as God, it is only the angel of the LORD and the angel of God's Presence for whom this is reserved.
So NO, Michael and Gabriel DO NOT speak and act as if they were their sender.

 

[Brian2]

God called via His agent, the angel Ex. 3:4 - that is not to say that God did not actually speak to Moses in the dialogue. When God gives the authority for someone to act and speak for Him, they are acting and speaking AS Him.

I can give examples where that does not happen. Does that mean that it happens just sometimes or do you think that when it does happen (The Angel of the Lord) that it is saying something about the messenger.

So, Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. John 8:28
Jesus was a man from the beginning of his existence via his conception and birth. God the Father was always his Father.
Jesus was inferior in his status as a Son, and ability to do anything because every work he did was God his Father working through him - everyone and everything is inferior to Almighty God, their Creator.

Jesus was a human when He was conceived and born, and yes it was not on His own authority that He spoke and did miracles.
Jesus was inferior in His status as a human. He was even inferior in His status compared to the angels.
Yes everything that God creates is inferiour to God and that is why Jesus is shown to be preeminent over all of creation because He created all things. (Col 1:16)
But you need to be careful about saying that every work that Jesus did was God his Father working through him. That is sort of saying that Jesus had no free will and could not sin.

Are you just ignoring "what" is being created? Are you just ignoring that the context is referring to the resurrected Christ and what is the "all things created/being created" by the resurrected Christ? "will be created" is different from "what is being created" - Jesus went to prepare a place for us and that is what he is doing.

Jesus is preparing a place for us, and you have decided that means that He was/is creating the New Heaven and New Earth.
Col 1 says that through Jesus all things were created and you have decided it means will be created or are being created.
Col 1 tells us that through Jesus invisible things were created also, (thrones, dominions, rulers, authorities) and you have decided that must mean that through Jesus invisible things will be or are being created. Don't you think that thrones, dominions, rulers, authorities exist in this heavens and earth?

I do not deny that Jesus died for the penalty of sin - A man sinned therefore a man had to pay the penalty to reconcile mankind back to God.
But the thing is you do not actually believe that a real man paid the price for that sin - What you believe is "God had to come down to earth AS a man" to pay the sentence given to humanity.

The Son of God had to become a man, with the same nature as His Father, to be able to be good/ sinless. Only God's Divine Son, who is exactly like His Father could do that. Adam was not able to do it when there was just one command and warning. "Don't eat the fruit or you will die".
But you expect someone no better than Adam could avoid the multiplicity of possible sins that humans face all the time.
For some reason you seem to think that unless Jesus could have sinned and failed he is not the real human messiah.
But it is precisely that the Son of God became a man, had a fleshly body, that He was able to be tempted and it is precisely because His nature was/is exactly like His Father's that He was able to overcome temptation.
The real Son of God with the same nature as His Father was able to do that.
And the value of the life of the Divine Son of God is infinely more to God than the life of one mere human and so He can pay the ransom for billions of people for eternity.

The thing is an immortal being cannot die nor shed blood - it took a human Son of God having the ability to die, truly die for our judgment to be satisfied.
Your true belief can be seen in your actual first response: God is the one who has reached out to and paid the price for us and our sins. He has not created someone to do the work and pay that price for Him.

The thing is that an immortal being who became a mortal man means that His body could be killed but His soul would still be living,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, just like every other human that has ever lived (Matt 10:28)
Sure Gen 2 says Adam became a living soul, but the meaning of soul in the scriptures does not stop there.
Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and cavenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

 

[amazing grace]

I can give examples where that does not happen. Does that mean that it happens just sometimes or do you think that when it does happen (The Angel of the Lord) that it is saying something about the messenger.

When the angel of the LORD appears and speaks to anyone - the angel is speaking words that God has given him to speak and that is the sense of speaking AS God himself. Sure give me examples of where the angel of the LORD is not speaking for God AS God . . . .

Jesus was a human when He was conceived and born, and yes it was not on His own authority that He spoke and did miracles.
Jesus was inferior in His status as a human. He was even inferior in His status compared to the angels.
Yes everything that Go.d creates is inferiour to God and that is why Jesus is shown to be preeminent over all of creation because He created all things. (Col 1:16)
But you need to be careful about saying that every work that Jesus did was God his Father working through him. That is sort of saying that Jesus had no free will and could not sin.

It's not going to matter what I say nor what the context of the verse is saying.
Jesus is shown to be preeminent being the head of the body, the church, being the firstborn from the dead.

Jesus is preparing a place for us, and you have decided that means that He was/is creating the New Heaven and New Earth.
Col 1 says that through Jesus all things were created and you have decided it means will be created or are being created.
Col 1 tells us that through Jesus invisible things were created also, (thrones, dominions, rulers, authorities) and you have decided that must mean that through Jesus invisible things will be or are being created. Don't you think that thrones, dominions, rulers, authorities exist in this heavens and earth?

It's not going to matter what I say nor what the context of the verse is saying. The "all things" are limited to the things listed.

The Son of God had to become a man, with the same nature as His Father, to be able to be good/ sinless. Only God's Divine Son, who is exactly like His Father could do that. Adam was not able to do it when there was just one command and warning. "Don't eat the fruit or you will die".
But you expect someone no better than Adam could avoid the multiplicity of possible sins that humans face all the time.
For some reason you seem to think that unless Jesus could have sinned and failed he is not the real human messiah.
But it is precisely that the Son of God became a man, had a fleshly body, that He was able to be tempted and it is precisely because His nature was/is exactly like His Father's that He was able to overcome temptation.
The real Son of God with the same nature as His Father was able to do that.
And the value of the life of the Divine Son of God is infinely more to God than the life of one mere human and so He can pay the ransom for billions of people for eternity.

It is really regretful that this doctrine has so screwed up the identity of God and His Christ. Jesus Christ was the image of God - a copy, reflection, representation, an imprint of his Father - mankind is the image of God - being in the image of God is NOT the same as being God.
Jesus said "Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone." Did Jesus say that in order to be good he had to be God? No, he is saying that no one is good except God alone - God is the ULTIMATE IN WHAT IS GOOD. Jesus did what he did and taught what he taught because of God’s guidance, and he gave God the credit. Jesus was "good" being a perfect reflection of God his Father.
I believe that Adam was a type of him who was to come, (a pattern, a figure) of Jesus Christ. Adam was fully human - NOT God. Jesus had to be fully human - NOT God. Adam failed in his obedience to God wherein Jesus succeeded by not considering the temptations presented before him, not letting them take root but immediately answering "it is written."
Jesus Christ totally reflected the character of God.
God chose His begotten Son, a mortal man who lived his life in total subjection to and obedience to God his Father. A mortal man who could shed his blood for the remission of sins; a mortal man who could die and God could raise from the dead to eternal life to give us our hope of eternal life in and through Christ.

The thing is that an immortal being who became a mortal man means that His body could be killed but His soul would still be living,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, just like every other human that has ever lived (Matt 10:28)
Sure Gen 2 says Adam became a living soul, but the meaning of soul in the scriptures does not stop there.
Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and cavenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

The immortal, invisible Creator, Almighty God did not become one of his creations.

 

[Brian2]

When the angel of the LORD appears and speaks to anyone - the angel is speaking words that God has given him to speak and that is the sense of speaking AS God himself. Sure give me examples of where the angel of the LORD is not speaking for God AS God . . . .

The thing is that I cannot give examples of where the angel of the Lord spoke and was not speaking as God. The Angel of the Lord is the odd one out. All the other angels spoke as angels.
The prophets did not speak as God but gave quotes of what God told them to say, and usually starting with "The Lord said", or something like that.

It's not going to matter what I say nor what the context of the verse is saying. The "all things" are limited to the things listed.

It's not as if there is any list given in the other places where it says that through Jesus all things were created. All things means all things. It is just that in Col 1 there is a list of some invisible things which are not just confined to the New Heavens and New Earth.

It is really regretful that this doctrine has so screwed up the identity of God and His Christ. Jesus Christ was the image of God - a copy, reflection, representation, an imprint of his Father - mankind is the image of God - being in the image of God is NOT the same as being God.
Jesus said "Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone." Did Jesus say that in order to be good he had to be God? No, he is saying that no one is good except God alone - God is the ULTIMATE IN WHAT IS GOOD. Jesus did what he did and taught what he taught because of God’s guidance, and he gave God the credit. Jesus was "good" being a perfect reflection of God his Father.

Nodody is good but God alone.
Jesus is good
Jesus is God.

Nobody is comparable to God.
Jesus is comparable to God
Jesus is God

All judgement is given to the Son and the Father judges nobody.
YHWH is coming to judge the earth
This YHWH must be the Son.

I believe that Adam was a type of him who was to come, (a pattern, a figure) of Jesus Christ. Adam was fully human - NOT God. Jesus had to be fully human - NOT God. Adam failed in his obedience to God wherein Jesus succeeded by not considering the temptations presented before him, not letting them take root but immediately answering "it is written."
Jesus Christ totally reflected the character of God.
God chose His begotten Son, a mortal man who lived his life in total subjection to and obedience to God his Father. A mortal man who could shed his blood for the remission of sins; a mortal man who could die and God could raise from the dead to eternal life to give us our hope of eternal life in and through Christ.

Adam was created and became a living soul.
Jesus was a life giving spirit and became a man.
The natural first and then the spiritual.
(1Cor 15:44-46)
Adam did not become a living soul at his resurrection.
There is nothing about "became" said about Jesus.
It is just showing that the natural, the created fleshly Adam came first and then the spiritual, the man from heaven who was first a life giving spirit and then stepped into the created flesh body to become a man, the firstborn of creation.
1Cor 15:47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so also are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.…

The immortal, invisible Creator, Almighty God did not become one of his creations.

Nobody has seen the invisible God but people have seen the body and resurrection body of Jesus.
Humans start their existence in the womb but not so with Jesus. It is not so with Jesus, He is the man from heaven (1Cor 15:47) so we cannot say that He began His existence in the womb,,,,,,,,, just that He began His existence as a man in the womb. So Jesus was not created, it was just His body which was part of the creation, but He is the man from heaven.