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What is the Rapture?

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Chuck Missler presents a compelling argument regarding the biblical foundation of the Rapture. Through meticulous examination of various biblical texts, he asserts that the concept of the Rapture can be found throughout the entirety of the Bible. In this analysis, a professional tone will be employed to discuss the key points presented by Missler.

One of Missler's central arguments is based on the interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, which states, "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Missler emphasizes that the phrase "caught up" in this passage implies a sudden snatch or seizing away, which aligns with the concept of the Rapture.

Furthermore, Missler highlights the similarities between the Rapture and the account of Enoch in Genesis 5:24, which states, "Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more because God took him away." He argues that Enoch's sudden removal from Earth mirrors the idea of believers being taken away in the Rapture, further supporting the biblical basis for this event.

Additionally, Missler draws attention to the parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25:1-13. In this parable, Jesus tells the story of ten virgins waiting for the bridegroom. Five of them are prepared with enough oil for their lamps, while the other five are unprepared. When the bridegroom finally arrives, the unprepared ones are left behind. Missler interprets this parable as a representation of the Rapture, where the prepared virgins symbolize believers who are taken away, while the unprepared ones represent those left behind.

Missler's comprehensive analysis extends to other biblical passages as well, including Luke 17:34-36, which speaks of people being taken and others left behind, and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, which describes the transformation of believers at the last trumpet. By examining these verses and more, Missler establishes a strong biblical foundation for the concept of the Rapture.

In conclusion, Chuck Missler presents a well-reasoned argument supporting the biblical legitimacy of the Rapture. Through careful analysis of numerous biblical texts, he highlights the presence of this event throughout the scriptures. Whether one agrees or disagrees with Missler's interpretation, his scholarly examination of the topic offers valuable insights into the biblical basis of the Rapture

There are numerous biblical arguments to support the Rapture. One I find compelling is the fact that in the first three chapters of Revelation the "church" is mentioned about 20 times. Then, after chapter 4 opens with a door opening in heaven, the church isn't mentioned again in relationship to the events that follow (i.e., the wrath, or tribulation from God, taking place on earth) throughout the rest of the book.



John
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Although the part about the mark/number and buying/selling is true, nowhere does it say or imply that millions will disappear in an instance. This part about the righteous disappearing and the wicked left behind seems totally made up (I am not sure by whom or where it originated).

In fact Jesus's own words seem contradict it. In Matthew 25:41, Jesus says "‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire" - implying the wicked will be banished and the good will be left behind. Many evangelicals believe that there will be a 1000-year reign of the Christ on earth with only the good allowed to remain (so presumably the wicked will indeed disappear?)
I believe that sounds like JW nonsense.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Nope. Revelation is about the Jewish-Roman war. It is not about anything in the 21st century. You are basically taking a verse, adding a bunch of stuff to it, and creating your own story out of whole cloth.
So you have seen Jesus coming in the cloud then?
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Nobody has and nobody ever will.

A thousand years ago it would have seemed safe to say the same thing about a man visiting the moon. You probably won't have to wait a thousand years to see science and reality morph such that seeing Jesus face-to-face will become common place.



John
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
A thousand years ago it would have seemed safe to say the same thing about a man visiting the moon. You probably won't have to wait a thousand years to see science and reality morph such that seeing Jesus face-to-face will become common place.



John
Jesus is in heaven. How do you think that people on earth are going to se Jesus face-to-face?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
What is the Rapture?

I understand the Christianity end times terminology has been well explained at the site <Glossary Of Terms | Apocalypse! FRONTLINE | PBS > under the title “ Glossary Of Terms" and it is much appreciated, please:

Antichrist
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The figure who acts as Satan's lead agent on earth during the end times. Most Christian scenarios predict the Antichrist -- a sort of evil twin of Jesus in many ways -- will forge a one-world government through promises of peace. When Jesus returns, he will expose the Antichrist as an impostor, defeat him in the battle of Armageddon, and reign with the Christian martyrs for a thousand years on earth.
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ApocalypticReferring to the belief that the end of the world as we know it is approaching, usually through a sudden, catataclysmic transformation. Comes from the Greek word apokalypsis meaning "the lifting of a veil," or a revelation. Also the name given to a specific genre of prophetic literature, of which the book of Revelation is best known. Western apocalyptic traditions tend to be dualistic, in that they view this end as the final outcome of an ongoing battle between good and evil forces, usually represented by God and Satan.
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ArmageddonThe geographic location given in the book of Revelation (16:16) for the climactic battle between Christ and Antichrist, with Christ's victory ushering in his thousand-year reign on earth. Named after the hill near the town of Megiddo in Palestine, which due to its strategic location overlooking major military and trade routes was the site of many ancient battles.
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ChiliasmThe belief that the righteous will enjoy their rewards here on earth. In Christianity, this has meant belief in the millennium, Christ's thousand-year reign on earth. From the Greek chilioi meaning "thousand."
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DanielThe book of Daniel, the most famous of the Jewish apocalypses, and the source of many of the ideas and symbols in Revelation. Likely written in the 2nd century B.C. as a response to the desecration of the Temple by Antiochus IV of Syria, although the author is cast back to the time of the Exile and "predicts" events back to the present. In Daniel, one sees many of the elements of the apocalyptic world view coming together for the first time in a single work. In it, God's chosen rise up and overthrow their oppressors, thus inheriting "the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven."
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DispensationalismA theological system which breaks history down into discrete epochs, called dispensations, in each of which God has offered humans a different means of salvation. First developed in the mid-19th century by English theologian John Nelson Darby, dispensationalism found its most popular expression in the "Scofield Reference Bible" of the early 20th century. See premillennialism, below.
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EschatologyThe study of "last things," or the end of human history. Although specific interpretations vary widely, most Christian eschatologies center on the belief that the just will be rewarded when God triumphs over Satan in the last days.
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MessianismThe belief that a chosen individual holds the key to a higher truth which will lead to salvation for his followers. Extreme forms of apocalyptic belief have tended to manifest themselves through messianic figures, from Montanus in the 2nd century to David Koresh in 1993. Messiahs tend to be highly charismatic individuals prone to megalomania and violence.
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MillennialReferring to a period of 1000 years, such as the end of the second Christian millennium in the year 2000. In religious terms, anything referring to the expected thousand-year reign of Christ on earth after the events of the last days have brought an end to this world. Such a radical transformation could come at any time, although expectations tend to increase at round markers such as the year 2000. Related to chiliasm, above.
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MillenarianReferring to more extreme millennial expectations, in which belief in an imminent apocalyptic transformation tends to spur the faithful into action, often of a violent nature.
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PostmillennialismThe belief that Christ will return only after humans have established a millennial kingdom on earth through their own efforts. In extreme forms, postmillennial beliefs have given rise to violent theocracies, such as that of Thomas Muntzer in 16th century Germany. But a more typical example is the milder postmillennialism of most New England Puritans, who believed they were building just such a righteous society, a "city on a hill." This type of apocalyptic expectation has gone hand-in-hand with social reform movements, and has contributed to the notion of divinely ordained progress which has played an important role in American history.
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PremillennialismThe belief that God's millennial kingdom will not come until Christ returns to save a sinful humanity and defeat the forces of Satan. Specific interpretations vary as to the exact timing of the Second Coming -- at the beginning, middle, or end of the Tribulation period. But in general, premillennialists tend to be highly pessimistic about the present state of the world, yet anxiously await a perfect world in the near future. By placing the fate of mankind squarely in God's hands, premillennialism has tended to discourage social action, concentrating instead on conversion and preparation for final judgment.
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RaptureThe belief that true believers in Christ will be taken bodily into heaven just prior to or during the Tribulation period, and thus be spared the horrible fate awaiting those left behind on earth. The rapture is an integral part of the premillennial dispensationalist systems which have dominated Christian prophecy belief in the second half of the 20th century, as it proposes faith in Christ as the only route to salvation.
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RevelationThe book of Revelation, also known as "The Revelation to John" and "St. John's Apocalypse," is the primary source of inspiration for Christian prophecy believers. The last book and only apocalypse in the New Testament, it was likely written in the last decade of the first century, during a period of great turmoil after the destruction of the second Jewish Temple by the Romans in 70 A.D. Biblical scholars are skeptical of the historical claim that the Apostle John was its author.
Millions of Christians have taken the events so vividly described in Revelation as a blueprint for what will happen in the last days as God brings an end to this world. But beyond that, many ideas and symbols from Revelation have found a place in the wider culture, including: the Mark of the Beast, represented by the number "666;" the seven seals; the four horsemen of the Apocalypse; the Whore of Babylon; and the battle of Armageddon.
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TribulationA period of upheaval, usually seven years in length, during which Satan will exert control over the earth through the antichrist. All but a small remnant of Christian faithful -- perhaps numbering 144,000 -- will die as a result of wars, plagues, and famine. The Tribulation will end with Christ's defeat of the antichrist at Armageddon, ushering God's millennial kingdom on earth.
Glossary Of Terms | Apocalypse! FRONTLINE | PBS
Right?

All of the above is related to "End Times" happening like " Rapture, Armageddon, Coming of the Anti-Christ and Second Coming etc but nothing from Moses- the Law Giver and his follower Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah, in first person, please, right?

Regards
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
So you believe the Rapture is Jesus returning to earth and rapturing people from earth.?

. . . Ok. What about the second coming (which is distinct from the Rapture). "Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him" (Rev. 1:7).




John
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
. . . Ok. What about the second coming (which is distinct from the Rapture). "Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him" (Rev. 1:7).




John
Why do you think that refers to Jesus? I believe it refers to the second coming of Christ, but that was not Jesus.

Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.​
Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.​
Revelation 3:12-13 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.​

The new name means that the return of Christ would not be Jesus, it would be another person.

Son of man coming on the clouds means that the return of the Christ Spirit will appear in the form of another human being. Much of the Book of Revelation is symbolic. "Every eye shall see him" means that eventually everyone will recognize him. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible does not mean the clouds in the sky. It means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Why do you think that refers to Jesus? I believe it refers to the second coming of Christ, but that was not Jesus.

Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.​
Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.​
Revelation 3:12-13 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.​

The new name means that the return of Christ would not be Jesus, it would be another person.

Son of man coming on the clouds means that the return of the Christ Spirit will appear in the form of another human being. Much of the Book of Revelation is symbolic. "Every eye shall see him" means that eventually everyone will recognize him. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible does not mean the clouds in the sky. It means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.

. . . [clearing throat] . . . Um, I notice you left out the part about him being "pierced"? Is this new person with a new name --who isn't Jesus ---going to fake the marks of the cross, fake as though he was pierced like Jesus? Or is it speaking of the fact that he's transgendered and has pierced ears and labial folds? Haisooos Mary Ann Christos Salvator Mundi? You know, like, Tuco Benedicto Pacífico Juan María Ramírez'? As Jesus was known as the Lamb, Tuco was known at the Rat. They call Alabama the "Crimson Tide." Call me "Deacon Blues."


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John
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
. . . [clearing throat] . . . Um, I notice you left out the part about him being "pierced"? Is this new person with a new name --who isn't Jesus ---going to fake the marks of the cross, fake as though he was pierced like Jesus?
Baha'u'llah was pierced by heavy chains and he carried the marks of that piercing till the end of His life.

Revelation​

In 1852, Bahá’u’lláh was falsely charged with complicity in an attempt on the life of Nasiruddin Shah, the King of Iran. When the warrant was issued, He set out to face His accusers, much to the astonishment of those who were charged with arresting Him. They conducted Him, barefoot and in chains, through teeming streets to a notorious subterranean dungeon, known as the “Black Pit.”

The dungeon had once been the reservoir for a public bath. Within its walls, prisoners languished in the cold and unhealthy air, clamped together by an unbearably heavy chain that left its mark on Bahá’u’lláh’s body for the rest of His life.

It was in this grim setting that the rarest and most cherished of events was once again played out: a mortal man, outwardly human in every respect, was chosen by God to bring to humanity a new message.

This experience of Divine Revelation, touched on only indirectly in surviving accounts of the lives of Moses, Christ, and Muhammad, is illustrated in Bahá’u’lláh’s own words: “During the days I lay in the prison of Tihran, though the galling weight of the chains and the stench-filled air allowed Me but little sleep, still in those infrequent moments of slumber I felt as if something flowed from the crown of My head over My breast, even as a mighty torrent that precipitateth itself upon the earth from the summit of a lofty mountain…At such moments My tongue recited what no man could bear to hear.”

The Ancient Beauty hath consented to be bound with chains that mankind may be released from its bondage, and hath accepted to be made a prisoner within this most mighty Stronghold that the whole world may attain unto true liberty. He hath drained to its dregs the cup of sorrow, that all the peoples of the earth may attain unto abiding joy, and be filled with gladness. This is of the mercy of your Lord, the Compassionate, the Most Merciful. We have accepted to be abased, O believers in the Unity of God, that ye may be exalted, and have suffered manifold afflictions, that ye might prosper and flourish. He Who hath come to build anew the whole world, behold, how they that have joined partners with God have forced Him to dwell within the most desolate of cities!

Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 99-100
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Sorry, but Revelation 13:16 does not mention the European common market.
Not explicitly, anyway.

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Revelation 12:1

 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Not explicitly, anyway.

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Revelation 12:1

Why, when I made a comment about Revelation 13:16, did you turn around and quote Revelation 12:1? I think I'm reaching the conclusion that you simply do not think clearly enough for me to have a rational conversation with you.

Revelation 12:1 refers to the mother of the child (Jesus), which would be Mary. You can't just assume that any symbol with 12 stars is going to be related.

Returning to Revelation 13:16, here is the text:
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

As you can see there is no mention of the European common market, not explicitly, and not implicitly.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
What is the Rapture?
Has the battle between Second Coming and the Anti-Christ already started?
What is the Rapture?

I understand the Christianity end times terminology has been well explained at the site <Glossary Of Terms | Apocalypse! FRONTLINE | PBS > under the title “ Glossary Of Terms" and it is much appreciated, please:

Antichrist
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blank.gif
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The figure who acts as Satan's lead agent on earth during the end times. Most Christian scenarios predict the Antichrist -- a sort of evil twin of Jesus in many ways -- will forge a one-world government through promises of peace. When Jesus returns, he will expose the Antichrist as an impostor, defeat him in the battle of Armageddon, and reign with the Christian martyrs for a thousand years on earth.
blank.gif
ApocalypticReferring to the belief that the end of the world as we know it is approaching, usually through a sudden, catataclysmic transformation. Comes from the Greek word apokalypsis meaning "the lifting of a veil," or a revelation. Also the name given to a specific genre of prophetic literature, of which the book of Revelation is best known. Western apocalyptic traditions tend to be dualistic, in that they view this end as the final outcome of an ongoing battle between good and evil forces, usually represented by God and Satan.
blank.gif
ArmageddonThe geographic location given in the book of Revelation (16:16) for the climactic battle between Christ and Antichrist, with Christ's victory ushering in his thousand-year reign on earth. Named after the hill near the town of Megiddo in Palestine, which due to its strategic location overlooking major military and trade routes was the site of many ancient battles.
blank.gif
ChiliasmThe belief that the righteous will enjoy their rewards here on earth. In Christianity, this has meant belief in the millennium, Christ's thousand-year reign on earth. From the Greek chilioi meaning "thousand."
blank.gif
DanielThe book of Daniel, the most famous of the Jewish apocalypses, and the source of many of the ideas and symbols in Revelation. Likely written in the 2nd century B.C. as a response to the desecration of the Temple by Antiochus IV of Syria, although the author is cast back to the time of the Exile and "predicts" events back to the present. In Daniel, one sees many of the elements of the apocalyptic world view coming together for the first time in a single work. In it, God's chosen rise up and overthrow their oppressors, thus inheriting "the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven."
blank.gif
DispensationalismA theological system which breaks history down into discrete epochs, called dispensations, in each of which God has offered humans a different means of salvation. First developed in the mid-19th century by English theologian John Nelson Darby, dispensationalism found its most popular expression in the "Scofield Reference Bible" of the early 20th century. See premillennialism, below.
blank.gif
EschatologyThe study of "last things," or the end of human history. Although specific interpretations vary widely, most Christian eschatologies center on the belief that the just will be rewarded when God triumphs over Satan in the last days.
blank.gif
MessianismThe belief that a chosen individual holds the key to a higher truth which will lead to salvation for his followers. Extreme forms of apocalyptic belief have tended to manifest themselves through messianic figures, from Montanus in the 2nd century to David Koresh in 1993. Messiahs tend to be highly charismatic individuals prone to megalomania and violence.
blank.gif
MillennialReferring to a period of 1000 years, such as the end of the second Christian millennium in the year 2000. In religious terms, anything referring to the expected thousand-year reign of Christ on earth after the events of the last days have brought an end to this world. Such a radical transformation could come at any time, although expectations tend to increase at round markers such as the year 2000. Related to chiliasm, above.
blank.gif
MillenarianReferring to more extreme millennial expectations, in which belief in an imminent apocalyptic transformation tends to spur the faithful into action, often of a violent nature.
blank.gif
PostmillennialismThe belief that Christ will return only after humans have established a millennial kingdom on earth through their own efforts. In extreme forms, postmillennial beliefs have given rise to violent theocracies, such as that of Thomas Muntzer in 16th century Germany. But a more typical example is the milder postmillennialism of most New England Puritans, who believed they were building just such a righteous society, a "city on a hill." This type of apocalyptic expectation has gone hand-in-hand with social reform movements, and has contributed to the notion of divinely ordained progress which has played an important role in American history.
blank.gif
PremillennialismThe belief that God's millennial kingdom will not come until Christ returns to save a sinful humanity and defeat the forces of Satan. Specific interpretations vary as to the exact timing of the Second Coming -- at the beginning, middle, or end of the Tribulation period. But in general, premillennialists tend to be highly pessimistic about the present state of the world, yet anxiously await a perfect world in the near future. By placing the fate of mankind squarely in God's hands, premillennialism has tended to discourage social action, concentrating instead on conversion and preparation for final judgment.
blank.gif
RaptureThe belief that true believers in Christ will be taken bodily into heaven just prior to or during the Tribulation period, and thus be spared the horrible fate awaiting those left behind on earth. The rapture is an integral part of the premillennial dispensationalist systems which have dominated Christian prophecy belief in the second half of the 20th century, as it proposes faith in Christ as the only route to salvation.
blank.gif
RevelationThe book of Revelation, also known as "The Revelation to John" and "St. John's Apocalypse," is the primary source of inspiration for Christian prophecy believers. The last book and only apocalypse in the New Testament, it was likely written in the last decade of the first century, during a period of great turmoil after the destruction of the second Jewish Temple by the Romans in 70 A.D. Biblical scholars are skeptical of the historical claim that the Apostle John was its author.
Millions of Christians have taken the events so vividly described in Revelation as a blueprint for what will happen in the last days as God brings an end to this world. But beyond that, many ideas and symbols from Revelation have found a place in the wider culture, including: the Mark of the Beast, represented by the number "666;" the seven seals; the four horsemen of the Apocalypse; the Whore of Babylon; and the battle of Armageddon.
blank.gif
TribulationA period of upheaval, usually seven years in length, during which Satan will exert control over the earth through the antichrist. All but a small remnant of Christian faithful -- perhaps numbering 144,000 -- will die as a result of wars, plagues, and famine. The Tribulation will end with Christ's defeat of the antichrist at Armageddon, ushering God's millennial kingdom on earth.
Glossary Of Terms | Apocalypse! FRONTLINE | PBS
Right?

All of the above is related to "End Times" happening like " Rapture, Armageddon, Coming of the Anti-Christ and Second Coming .
End times happenings like " Rapture, Armageddon, Coming of the Anti-Christ and Second Coming have already started by the Advent of Second Coming in the form of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908, right?

Regards
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Why, when I made a comment about Revelation 13:16, did you turn around and quote Revelation 12:1?
Because context matters.

You can't just assume that any symbol with 12 stars is going to be related.
There's also the sun and moon, which, along with Lucifer, feature on Constantine's arch. Constantine connects Rome to the Messianism of the writer of Revelation.

And then there's Babylon.

There is virtually unanimous agreement among modern interpreters that the referent of ‘Babylon’ is actually Rome (Achtemeier 1996: 354; W. Barclay 1976: 278; Best 1971: 178; Clowney 1988: 224; Cranfield 1958: 123; J. H. Elliott 2000: 883–86; Goppelt 1993: 374–75; Grudem 1988: 201; Kelly 1969: 218; Kistemaker 1987: 209; Michaels 1988: 311; Perkins 1995: 81; Reicke 1964: 134; Selwyn 1958: 243).

Karen H. Jobes in the Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament (1 Peter)
 
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