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Genesis - Big Bang mash-up

AdamjEdgar

Active Member
Let poetic, of course, and I'm sure subject to debate but this appealed to me today:

1 In the beginning God created the universe in a BIg Bang
2 And the universe was without form, and filled with plasma; and darkness was upon the face of the plasma. And the Spirit of God moved upon the fog of the plasma.
3 And God said, Let the the universe cool and the cooling allow light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God's laws had divided the light from the darkness.

We Finally Know What Turned The Lights on at The Dawn of Time


At the beginning of the Universe, within minutes of the Big Bang, space was filled with a hot, dense fog of ionized plasma. What little light there was wouldn't have penetrated this fog; photons would simply have scattered off the free electrons floating around, effectively making the Universe dark.

As the Universe cooled, after about 300,000 years, protons and electrons began to come together to form neutral hydrogen (and a little bit of helium) gas. Most wavelengths of light could penetrate this neutral medium, but there was very little in the way of light sources to produce it. But from this hydrogen and helium, the first stars were born.

Those first stars delivered radiation that was strong enough to peel electrons away from their nuclei and reionize the gas. By this point, however, the Universe had expanded so much that the gas was diffuse, and could not prevent light from shining out. By about 1 billion years after the Big Bang, the end of the period known as the cosmic dawn, the Universe was entirely reionized. Ta-da! The lights were on.
Answer me this...if God can miraculously create from nothing by simply speaking the universe into existence,

Why does God need 300,000 years for it to cool down when he could just speak and it would immediately cool?

Christians need to recognise that the bible is written already interpreting Gods revelation...the writers and scribes have already done the comprehension part for us. That is why theistic evolutionary statements above are categorically false and wrong.

I have no problem with the idea of a sudden expansion of the universe...the issue is, given His revelation has already been interpreted to us, trying to insert evolutionary timeline destroys the consistency of bible theology regarding creation, the fall, the sanctuary service, Christ dying physically on the cross as atonement for sin, the gospel, salvation and restoration of a new heavens and new earth free from sin.

God warns that those people who add or subtract from scripture are evil and will not be saved.
 

AdamjEdgar

Active Member
Let poetic, of course, and I'm sure subject to debate but this appealed to me today:

1 In the beginning God created the universe in a BIg Bang
2 And the universe was without form, and filled with plasma; and darkness was upon the face of the plasma. And the Spirit of God moved upon the fog of the plasma.
3 And God said, Let the the universe cool and the cooling allow light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God's laws had divided the light from the darkness.

We Finally Know What Turned The Lights on at The Dawn of Time


At the beginning of the Universe, within minutes of the Big Bang, space was filled with a hot, dense fog of ionized plasma. What little light there was wouldn't have penetrated this fog; photons would simply have scattered off the free electrons floating around, effectively making the Universe dark.

As the Universe cooled, after about 300,000 years, protons and electrons began to come together to form neutral hydrogen (and a little bit of helium) gas. Most wavelengths of light could penetrate this neutral medium, but there was very little in the way of light sources to produce it. But from this hydrogen and helium, the first stars were born.

Those first stars delivered radiation that was strong enough to peel electrons away from their nuclei and reionize the gas. By this point, however, the Universe had expanded so much that the gas was diffuse, and could not prevent light from shining out. By about 1 billion years after the Big Bang, the end of the period known as the cosmic dawn, the Universe was entirely reionized. Ta-da! The lights were on.
Answer me this...if God can miraculously create from nothing by simply speaking the universe into existence,

Why does God need 300,000 years for it to cool down when he could just speak and it would immediately cool?

You need to recognise that the bible is written already interpreting Gods revelation...the writers and scribes have already done the interpreting for us. That is why your theistic evolutionary statement above is categorically false and wrong.

I have no problemwith the idea of a sudden expansion of the universe...the issue is, given His revelation has already been interpreted to us, God warns tha those people who add or subtract from scripture are evil and will not be saved.

Let me also add something else in here...note what 2 Peter chapters 1 and 2 say...

1. peter learned from writings of prophets, Christs ministry, and direct revelation from God

2. peter says, if God can save noah from the flood, and save Lot from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorah...

the above writings in 2 peter are catastrophic for any belief in Theistic Evolutionism in Christianity as Peter is clearly telling us that the flood and destruction of sodom and gomorah are real historical events and he knows this via direct revelation from God!

then there is this...

if the death described to Adam and Eve before the fall is only spiritual and or allegorical, please explain why Christ (part of the triune God), before the crewrion of the world, set in motion a plan of salvation whereby He would PHYSICALLY die on the cross for sin...sin TEists claim was only spiritual and allegorical?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Answer me this...if God can miraculously create from nothing by simply speaking the universe into existence,

Do you really think Hebrews invented a deity that create things just by speaking words?

Just as the Jews from Babylon, during the 6th century BCE, have borrowed and adapted myths from the Babylonian creation and flood narratives, they have also borrowed from Egyptian myths of Ptah, Thoth and Isis, as each god can create just by speaking words.

The kingdoms of Israel and Judah (and Judaea later) weren’t isolated from other contemporary cultures and civilisations, like from Egypt, Aram (Syria), Assyria, Babylonia, Persia, and even from the Greece-Macedonia. Prior to the fall of Jerusalem, portions of the population from Judah, fled to Egypt where they settled.

And btw, Christians didn’t invent resurrection and the afterlife. Egypt believed in the afterlife for millennia, which included soul being judged, and only the worthy spent their spiritual life in the Field of Reed, their version of Heaven. And centuries before Jesus, the Greeks believed that shades will be judged, and go to White Isle or the Elysian Fields (heaven for demigods & heroes), Erebus (for most souls) and Tartarus (hell for most wicked of wrongdoers).

Even the story of Lazarus isn’t original. The Egyptian myth included Thoth bringing back to life, Isis’ son Horus. See the Metternich stele (4th century BCE).
 
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Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
News flash: Genesis has nothing to do with the Big Bang cosmological model. A universe cooling and expanding from a hot dense early state (scientists are in agreement that the singularity never happened) bears no similarity to EITHER of the creation stories in Genesis.

Stop trying to jam a round peg into a square hole, you'd think that theists would have learned their lesson about science and religion centuries ago: this does not end well for you.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
News flash: Genesis has nothing to do with the Big Bang cosmological model. A universe cooling and expanding from a hot dense early state (scientists are in agreement that the singularity never happened) bears no similarity to EITHER of the creation stories in Genesis.

Stop trying to jam a round peg into a square hole, you'd think that theists would have learned their lesson about science and religion centuries ago: this does not end well for you.
Evidence please? The singularity is just the result of the math that is understood thus far. It's existence and what it actually indicates is in question because the math breaks down at this point and we don't know.
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
Evidence please? The singularity is just the result of the math that is understood thus far. It's existence and what it actually indicates is in question because the math breaks down at this point and we don't know.
The singularity is the result of General Relativity- our theory of gravity that describes things on large scales like stars and galaxies- breaking down. General relativity and quantum mechanics- our theory of the movement of the very smallest objects in reality- are not consistent, and come into hopeless contradiction.

When gravity gets significant on the quantum scale, we get nonsense infinities. Like here. Which is why scientists are trying to reconcile them into a so-called "theory of everything". And in candidate theories of everything- like string theory- these singularities are removed. They are not a part of any accepted theory, they are widely regarded as mathematical artifacts not physical objects. So its not "the moment of creation" or any such thing. Chances are, there never was any such moment and the universe has always existed (but that's a separate matter).

Some resources:

“Singularities don’t exist,” claims black hole pioneer Roy Kerr
PBS Space Time What if Singularities Don't Exist
Stanford discussion of significance of singularities
Physicisits Sabine Hossenfelder on why singularities aren't real
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
The singularity is the result of General Relativity- our theory of gravity that describes things on large scales like stars and galaxies- breaking down. General relativity and quantum mechanics- our theory of the movement of the very smallest objects in reality- are not consistent, and come into hopeless contradiction.

When gravity gets significant on the quantum scale, we get nonsense infinities. Like here. Which is why scientists are trying to reconcile them into a so-called "theory of everything". And in candidate theories of everything- like string theory- these singularities are removed. They are not a part of any accepted theory, they are widely regarded as mathematical artifacts not physical objects. So its not "the moment of creation" or any such thing. Chances are, there never was any such moment and the universe has always existed (but that's a separate matter).

Some resources:

“Singularities don’t exist,” claims black hole pioneer Roy Kerr
PBS Space Time What if Singularities Don't Exist
Stanford discussion of significance of singularities
Physicisits Sabine Hossenfelder on why singularities aren't real
Yes we know the math doesn't make any sense at that point, but that is different than saying that we know anything for sure about what happened before if that even makes any sense. I think you overstate the consensus on the the mathematics.
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
Yes we know the math doesn't make any sense at that point, but that is different than saying that we know anything for sure about what happened before if that even makes any sense. I think you overstate the consensus on the the mathematics.
Who said we know for sure what happened before that? I never said that. But yes, there is an overwhelming consensus that singularities are mathematical artifacts that result from a theory breaking down, not physical objects. There are no singularities in the universe, only in our math.
That's what the physicists and mathematicians more or less unanimously agree.

I'm sorry if that screws up some people's theological or devotional interpretation of Big Bang cosmology, but you shouldn't be tying your religious views to particular scientific results in the first place- scientific results tend to change.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Who said we know for sure what happened before that? I never said that. But yes, there is an overwhelming consensus that singularities are mathematical artifacts that result from a theory breaking down, not physical objects. There are no singularities in the universe, only in our math.
That's what the physicists and mathematicians more or less unanimously agree.

I'm sorry if that screws up some people's theological or devotional interpretation of Big Bang cosmology, but you shouldn't be tying your religious views to particular scientific results in the first place- scientific results tend to change.
The necessity to lie is but one of the endless
ironies of yec
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Not always, research only needs to continue until the goal has been realized, then it can cease.

A particular research may stop, if they meet the specifications…but sciences are never done, as there are always more to be learned, so there are often more researches even when one research ceased.

Take for instance, medicine, like research into virus of how they infect, the symptoms they cause, and then there are the researches into the development of treatment and development of preventative measures - the vaccine.

The thing is viruses can change - viruses can mutate into new variant or strain - which would make either the treatment and vaccine be resistant or immune to the treatment/vaccine. So a new research must start up to counter the new infections, and develop new cure & vaccine to treat or stop new strain.

The researches on study of flu viruses and the respective treatments & vaccines have been ongoing for decades. New researches are needed, just about every year, to treat the another new strain of flu virus.

Then COVID hit, and we have new problems on top of annual problems with flu viruses.

And here is the thing, the treatments and vaccines don’t always work for certain groups of the population. It is effective medicine some populations but not effective for other.

The sciences must continue…even when a particular research have stopped.

That the same with just about every fields of physical sciences and natural sciences.

Isaac Newton did wonders in mechanics (motion, forces & gravity), in astronomy and in maths (more specifically calculus), and each ones have various applications in different fields, including technology.

He was ahead of his time, but each one of these, they are approximate solutions, and incomplete.

Then in early 20th century, Albert Einstein provide new solutions - more accurate explanations and another way of looking at the mechanics to Newton’s law of motion and forces (Special Relativity, 1905, eg spacetime continuum, the effect of something approaching the speed of light would cause time dilation, the relationship between mass and energy (the mass-energy equivalence equation), and so on) and the law of forces, particularly in connection with gravity (General Relativity, 1915, eg gravity is the curvature of spacetime).

While General Relativity is the current standard, many physicists including Einstein himself, have tried to unify this with Quantum Mechanics, into a single theory. The unification of two different mechanics have been un successful to this day, yet theoretical physicists are pursuing there are particle associated with gravity - the so-called quantum gravity.

So the search the unified theory to the 4 fundamental forces continue. Some thought String Theory was the answer, but it turn out to be white whale, as String Theory became increasingly complex (26 dimensions have been narrowed down to 11 dimensions), and unworkable and untestable in reality.

The theory of Evolution has undergone many changes in the 165 years, since Darwin introduced Natural Selection in 1859 with On Origin Of Species, including unifying with genetics in the Modern Synthesis, the inclusion of other mechanisms - Mutations, Genetic Drift, Gene Flow & Genetic Hitchhiking, the improvement of methodology in testing DNA, and so on.

And it is the same with Physical Sciences, where they continue to advance forward, like in engineering and in technology…there are always rooms for improvement.

Sciences will always be ongoing. Sometimes they get corrected and updated, sometimes they add to the theory with something new, and sometimes they get replaced by better tested alternatives.

So yes and no to research may stop, but more often than not, new researches take its place. I have yet to see a single theory that answer everything, and they should stop…without needing new research.
 
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Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
A particular research may stop, if they meet the specifications…but sciences are never done, as there are always more to be learned, so there are often more researches even when one research ceased.

Take for instance, medicine, like research into virus of how they infect, the symptoms they cause, and then there are the researches into the development of treatment and development of preventative measures - the vaccine.

The thing is viruses can change - viruses can mutate into new variant or strain - which would make either the treatment and vaccine be resistant or immune to the treatment/vaccine. So a new research must start up to counter the new infections, and develop new cure & vaccine to treat or stop new strain.

The researches on study of flu viruses and the respective treatments & vaccines have been ongoing for decades. New researches are needed, just about every year, to treat the another new strain of flu virus.

Then COVID hit, and we have new problems on top of annual problems with flu viruses.

And here is the thing, the treatments and vaccines don’t always work for certain groups of the population. It is effective medicine some populations but not effective for other.

The sciences must continue…even when a particular research have stopped.

That the same with just about every fields of physical sciences and natural sciences.

Isaac Newton did wonders in mechanics (motion, forces & gravity), in astronomy and in maths (more specifically calculus), and each ones have various applications in different fields, including technology.

He was ahead of his time, but each one of these, they are approximate solutions, and incomplete.

Then in early 20th century, Albert Einstein provide new solutions - more accurate explanations and another way of looking at the mechanics to Newton’s law of motion and forces (Special Relativity, 1905, eg spacetime continuum, the effect of something approaching the speed of light would cause time dilation, the relationship between mass and energy (the mass-energy equivalence equation), and so on) and the law of forces, particularly in connection with gravity (General Relativity, 1915, eg gravity is the curvature of spacetime).

While General Relativity is the current standard, many physicists including Einstein himself, have tried to unify this with Quantum Mechanics, into a single theory. The unification of two different mechanics have been un successful to this day, yet theoretical physicists are pursuing there are particle associated with gravity - the so-called quantum gravity.

So the search the unified theory to the 4 fundamental forces continue. Some thought String Theory was the answer, but it turn out to be white whale, as String Theory became increasingly complex (26 dimensions have been narrowed down to 11 dimensions), and unworkable and untestable in reality.

And it is the same with Physical Sciences, where they continue to advance forward, like in engineering and in technology…there are always rooms for improvement.

Sciences will always be ongoing. Sometimes they get corrected and updated, sometimes they add to the theory with something new, and sometimes they get replaced by better tested alternatives.

So yes and no to research may stop, but more often than not, new researches take its place.
I said...."Not always, research only needs to continue until the goal has been realized, then it can cease."
You said....."A particular research may stop, if they meet the specifications…"

'Not always' implies I am only referring to a particular goal of science, one whose specifications has been met, goals of science which have not yet been realized continue. English is so difficult.... :D
 

gnostic

The Lost One
News flash: Genesis has nothing to do with the Big Bang cosmological model. A universe cooling and expanding from a hot dense early state (scientists are in agreement that the singularity never happened) bears no similarity to EITHER of the creation stories in Genesis.

Stop trying to jam a round peg into a square hole, you'd think that theists would have learned their lesson about science and religion centuries ago: this does not end well for you.

Only some revisionist Christian creationists (with Genesis) and Muslims (with the Qur’an) try to incorporate the Big Bang Into their respective creation beliefs.

When the Pope in 1951, at the time tried to promote catholic church as champion of the Big Bang model, because one of the founders in the 1920s happened to be Catholic priest, Georges Lemaître actually retorted Pius XII, stating that the BB model had nothing to do with Genesis Creation.

The big bang model started because of Edwin Hubble, back in 1919, when he discovered that the Milky Way isn’t the only universe, and what were classified in the 18th & 19th centuries to be nebulae were actually gal, which implied that the universe was larger than everyone had imagined.

Who said we know for sure what happened before that? I never said that. But yes, there is an overwhelming consensus that singularities are mathematical artifacts that result from a theory breaking down, not physical objects. There are no singularities in the universe, only in our math.
That's what the physicists and mathematicians more or less unanimously agree.

I'm sorry if that screws up some people's theological or devotional interpretation of Big Bang cosmology, but you shouldn't be tying your religious views to particular scientific results in the first place- scientific results tend to change.

Big Bang cosmology isn’t a religion any more than General Relativity or Quantum Field Theory are.

Sciences aren’t about theism or theology…it isn’t even about atheism. The theism vs atheism are solely about religion, not about nature and not about science.

As I said earlier, the Big Bang model originally started (during the 1920s) because of Hubble’s discovery that the universe is larger than the Milky Way. and along the way new models developed (the Big Bang Nucleosynthesis & CMBR in 1948), inflation model in early 80s, and the lambda-cdm model in the late 90s.

Each models provided insights on the universe, but of course, each one doesn’t provide all the answers. And the earliest epochs of the BB timeline are still theoretical & hypothetical, but it on more firm footing from after the 1st second to the present day than any other alternative models.

Maybe one day, there will be better alternative theory, but that day haven’t come…yet.

so until that day comes, the current model is still the best explanation so far…but I am not ignoring it doesn’t have all questions resolved.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I said...."Not always, research only needs to continue until the goal has been realized, then it can cease."
You said....."A particular research may stop, if they meet the specifications…"

'Not always' implies I am only referring to a particular goal of science, one whose specifications has been met, goals of science which have not yet been realized continue. English is so difficult.... :D

my final answer was “yes and no” to ceasing research.

Some can continue even when a particular goal has been achieved.

To give, you example, the Higgs Mechanism was developed back in 1964, but they didn’t discover the Higgs boson until 2012 at CERN LHC experiment. One goal was achieved, but the research continued after this goal.
 
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