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‘Airplane!’ Director Says Hollywood Is ‘Destroying Comedy’

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Yeah, we disagree on this. Particularly the 'recognize that comedy could have an influence on society' part.

I believe comedy, especially satire, can be immensely powerful in specific situations. It's not a coincidence that dictators often censor satire of their regimes or that such satire often becomes one of the most prominent aspects of activism when spreading anti-government messaging in society.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I believe comedy, especially satire, can be immensely powerful in specific situations. It's not a coincidence that dictators often censor satire of their regimes or that such satire often becomes one of the most prominent aspects of activism when spreading anti-government messaging in society.

I agree.

One of my favourite quotes is an old DeBono classic.

It has always surprised me how little attention philosophers have paid to humor, since it is a more significant process of mind than reason. Reason can only sort out perceptions, but the humor process is involved in changing them.

I don't think our variance is on whether humour is impactful or not. Rather, I think it's on the implication of that.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I agree.

One of my favourite quotes is an old DeBono classic.

It has always surprised me how little attention philosophers have paid to humor, since it is a more significant process of mind than reason. Reason can only sort out perceptions, but the humor process is involved in changing them.

I don't think our variance is on whether humour is impactful or not. Rather, I think it's on the implication of that.

I would be interested to know what specifically you disagree with here, then, as I don't think we would disagree that jokes about rape survivors' experiences or the Holocaust can be harmful and, at best, extremely inappropriate and warranting of criticism.
 
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Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I would be interested to know what specifically you disagree with here, then, as I don't think we would disagree that jokes about rape survivors' experiences or the Holocaust can be harmful and, at best, extremely inappropriate and warranting of criticism.

As George Carlin once put it, "context is everything." There are definitely comedic moments which might be considered "dark humor." Mel Brooks put it thusly: “Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die.”
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
As George Carlin once put it, "context is everything." There are definitely comedic moments which might be considered "dark humor." Mel Brooks put it thusly: “Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die.”

I agree that context is crucial, but this doesn't mean specific types of humor aren't unacceptable in almost every situation we can think of. When someone like Dave Chappelle mocks the accusers of Michael Jackson and Louis C.K. and downplays the very idea that the accusations could even be true—which they were in the case of C.K.—this is more an act of age-old minimization of toxic behavior than "dark humor" or comedy.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I agree that context is crucial, but this doesn't mean specific types of humor aren't unacceptable in almost every situation we can think of. When someone like Dave Chappelle mocks the accusers of Michael Jackson and Louis C.K. and downplays the very idea that the accusations could even be true—which they were in the case of C.K.—this is more an act of age-old minimization of toxic behavior than "dark humor" or comedy.

I get what you're saying, although my opinion is that the crime itself is always worse than talking about it.

Also, I would point out that nothing ever really happens in a vacuum. Events (along with discussions of events) often connect to each other, even as society's encouraged way of thinking is to separate and compartmentalize every issue and event as totally unconnected from each other. People want to put everything in neat little boxes. I don't agree with that line of thinking. That's how most political debates can get bogged down and hinders public discussion, as people seem to argue more about how we should discuss things as opposed to what we should discuss.

So, in the example you give about Michael Jackson, it's implied that the only thing we should care about would be the actual alleged crime and the accusations - and any kind of deviation from that neat little box would be considered "toxic."
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
So, in the example you give about Michael Jackson, it's implied that the only thing we should care about would be the actual alleged crime and the accusations - and any kind of deviation from that neat little box would be considered "toxic."

That's not my point; it's more that toxic attitudes toward sexual harassment accusations and toward those who speak out about it are inappropriate even if the person propagating them claims "it was just a joke." A lot of ideologically charged comedy no longer gets a free pass on account of being humorous, which seems to aggravate people like Chappelle who don't want to face consequences for advocating or displaying harmful attitudes under the banner of comedy.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I was thinking more like...

iu
I can't have a dead person play me!
How about Dave Bautista?
Put a wig on'm, & we'd be twins.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
That's not my point; it's more that toxic attitudes toward sexual harassment accusations and toward those who speak out about it are inappropriate even if the person propagating them claims "it was just a joke." A lot of ideologically charged comedy no longer gets a free pass on account of being humorous, which seems to aggravate people like Chappelle who don't want to face consequences for advocating or displaying harmful attitudes under the banner of comedy.

I get what you're saying, although what is considered appropriate and what is toxic is often in the eye of the beholder. It's a subjective judgment, and if someone believes that their subjective judgment should be imposed on other people, then I can see where others might have a problem with that.

I can see a certain sense in the notion of "let the people decide." If the viewers don't like Chappelle, they'll tune out, he'll lose ratings, and his services will no longer be in demand. That would at least be a collective judgment by consensus, in terms of judging what is appropriate or toxic, while the subjective judgment of a single executive may be called into question.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It has always surprised me how little attention philosophers have paid to humor, since it is a more significant process of mind than reason. Reason can only sort out perceptions, but the humor process is involved in changing them.
Who is a philosopher?
Someone that scholars call "philosopher"?
Someone who calls oneself "philosopher"?
Both seem rather arbitrary & even pretentious.
Wags on RF have even argued that so & so
isn't a real philosopher. Pbbbbttttttttt!
There's a sure sign of a pompous boob, eh.

I'd include Kurt Vonnegut.
(He'd be 100 years old today. Happy birthday!)
Certainly he employed humor in fiction that
addressed philosophical issues. And of course,
is there a greater philosopher than Douglas Adams?
He created Deep Thought & the Philosopher's Union.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I would be interested to know what specifically you disagree with here, then, as I don't think we would disagree that jokes about rape survivors' experiences or the Holocaust can be harmful and, at best, extremely inappropriate and warranting of criticism.

I wouldn't guarantee our views would be the same, even on that. Context matters, and comedy is subjective. If I don't like it, I don't watch it. I tend to favour free speech more extremely with comedy than in most settings, to be honest. Even where I don't personally find the material funny.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Who is a philosopher?
Someone that scholars call "philosopher"?
Someone who calls oneself "philosopher"?
Both seem rather arbitrary & even pretentious.
Wags on RF have even argued that so & so
isn't a real philosopher. Pbbbbttttttttt!
There's a sure sign of a pompous boob, eh.

I'd include Kurt Vonnegut.
(He'd be 100 years old today. Happy birthday!)
Certainly he employed humor in fiction that
addressed philosophical issues. And of course,
is there a greater philosopher than Douglas Adams?
He created Deep Thought & the Philosopher's Union.

Well...you'd have to ask DeBono, as what I wrote was a quote of his words, not mine.
But I think he was simply making the point that comedy is too often dismissed as 'unimportant' when in fact comedy can be more effective in changing minds than reason.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Well...you'd have to ask DeBono, as what I wrote was a quote of his words, not mine.
My question was rhetorical.
I don't even know this DeBoner guy.
But I think he was simply making the point that comedy is too often dismissed as 'unimportant' when in fact comedy can be more effective in changing minds than reason.
As I recall, Vonnegut was the 1st anti-war
author coming out of WW2. He seems
influential to me.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
My question was rhetorical.
I don't even know this DeBoner guy.

*sighs*
Are you trying to prove that humour is in the eye of the beholder? DeBono...not DeBoner...

Amongst other things, he invented the term 'lateral thinking'.
Some of his theories were required reading when I was studying education, and some of his theories I still find useful.
Not always the same theories I was required to read, but whatevs...

He is the guy who came up with the Six Thinking Hats, which is fairly widely known, and a mechanism for 'switching gears' in your brain fairly explicitly based on need, between Judgement, Planning, Risks, etc. Basically, he was recommending explicit focus on aspects of a decision in turn as the best means of efficient and effective decision making.

I always liked some of the concepts of Po (a different set of books he wrote). The simplest to explain and most useful was effectively to set aside whether an idea was 'good' or 'bad', as too often we stop seeking solutions when we find a 'good' solution. Rather, he advocated identifying as many solutions as possible, regardless of constraint (eg. ignore cost, etc) and only then moving into an evaluation phase, where unworkable, fantastic or overly expensive solutions would be discarded, the whole list of possible solutions being refined down, eventually to find the best identified solution, rather than just the first workable one.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I wouldn't guarantee our views would be the same, even on that. Context matters, and comedy is subjective. If I don't like it, I don't watch it. I tend to favour free speech more extremely with comedy than in most settings, to be honest. Even where I don't personally find the material funny.

We indeed disagree, then, because I generally don't think comedy should be given any different treatment from other forms of speech when it expresses genuinely held views. Branding expression of a genuinely held belief as a joke shouldn't, in my opinion, give it any more or less scrutiny than if it were phrased seriously.

I also firmly believe in the concepts of "punching up" and "punching down": if a person who experienced a particularly traumatic experience jokes about it, for instance, then that's different from someone else doing it to generate laughs at the expense of the trauma of others who didn't consent to such jokes.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
*sighs*
Are you trying to prove that humour is in the eye of the beholder? DeBono...not DeBoner...
Recently, I was accused of being too high brow.
I employed that joke to be more accessible to the masses.
Amongst other things, he invented the term 'lateral thinking'.
Some of his theories were required reading when I was studying education, and some of his theories I still find useful.
Not always the same theories I was required to read, but whatevs...
I invented the term "crotchelfester".
He is the guy who came up with the Six Thinking Hats, which is fairly widely known, and a mechanism for 'switching gears' in your brain fairly explicitly based on need, between Judgement, Planning, Risks, etc. Basically, he was recommending explicit focus on aspects of a decision in turn as the best means of efficient and effective decision making.

I always liked some of the concepts of Po (a different set of books he wrote). The simplest to explain and most useful was effectively to set aside whether an idea was 'good' or 'bad', as too often we stop seeking solutions when we find a 'good' solution. Rather, he advocated identifying as many solutions as possible, regardless of constraint (eg. ignore cost, etc) and only then moving into an evaluation phase, where unworkable, fantastic or overly expensive solutions would be discarded, the whole list of possible solutions being refined down, eventually to find the best identified solution, rather than just the first workable one.
He & I have much in common.
Reminds me of back in my engineering days,
when solving problems was all about flexibility,
exploring alternatives, & consideration of the
larger picture...all in pursuit of the optimum
approach to design.
I had some really well thought out failures.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Animal testing is largely a philosophical area. After all, there is not one concrete reason we must test first on animals. We could go straight to human testing. The only reason we don't is because we value our own hides more than the lives of other animals.

There are multiple reasons, actually, including sample size, feasibility of finding new subjects when experiments need to be repeated for any reason, and, in the case of veterinary treatments, the fact that testing on humans would be less precise than on animals.

What Ricky Gervais and other high-profile activists do when they demonize medical animal testing without providing a viable alternative is effectively continue to reap the benefits it has given humanity and our animal companions, be they pets or livestock, while ostensibly distancing themselves from it and sometimes making it harder for researchers to actually do their jobs.

It's kinda similar to upper-class liberalism that harps on poor working conditions in Chinese factories while many of the people who espouse it continue buying the products of those factories because they're cheaper and more desirable than many alternatives. Somehow I doubt Gervais will volunteer himself or any of his animals for testing, and I don't fault him for that in the slightest. What I do fault him for is the simplistic approach to a complicated issue where, for one reason or another, he fails to acknowledge the different aspects of the issue he's campaigning against.

He's not really creating a harmful influence though. Many of his harshest jokes, after all, include vicious self-deprecating stabs.

Anyone can engage in self-deprecation as much as they want; it's when they give themselves liberty to also deprecate others who didn't consent that problems arise.

I think jokes that punch down or minimize the traumatic nature of certain subjects are generally harmful. This doesn't just apply to Ricky Gervais.

That's called agism. Lumping people together like that, assuming behaviors are because of when someone was born, and dismissing all as a part of a looney concept of generation is agist as it is judging someone by their birth year rather than content of character.

I'm not assuming; I'm observing the attitudes of multiple high-profile comedians and politicians from that era. Almost every time a controversy arises because a comedian said something out of line or harmful, it's someone like Bill Maher, Ricky Gervais, Dave Chappelle, or another Boomer or Gen X'er.

Is this a coincidence? I suppose there's a chance it is, but I think it's much more likely to be a symptom of refusing to adapt to a changing sociopolitical and cultural landscape than the one they grew up in. This is especially so when we consider the fact that most who vote for particularly conservative politicians tend to be older voters.
 
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