‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities.

[A Vestigial Mote]

You missed it; humans have the power to hurt each other. Good and evil are not absolute to me. Oh, and God is a personage.

None of my questions were answered. Nothing clarified. Yes... humans have the power to hurt each other. This is what God believes is "evil" then? Humans hurting each other? When God hurts humans, however, that is not "evil" then, correct? Or at least not through God's eyes? Is that how that works? Can God hurting humans still be considered "evil" through human's eyes? Is that allowed? I would think it should be, especially if God is, as you say, a "personage" - because that gives him agency and intent. So that when He commits an act that harms human beings, then we can know, for sure, that He contemplated the act and understood exactly what He was doing as He did it. Thereby we can then target this thing "God" with the attribute "evil" all the more easily.

 

[robocop (actually)]

None of my questions were answered. Nothing clarified. Yes... humans have the power to hurt each other. This is what God believes is "evil" then? Humans hurting each other? When God hurts humans, however, that is not "evil" then, correct? Or at least not through God's eyes? Is that how that works? Can God hurting humans still be considered "evil" through human's eyes? Is that allowed? I would think it should be, especially if God is, as you say, a "personage" - because that gives him agency and intent. So that when He commits an act that harms human beings, then we can know, for sure, that He contemplated the act and understood exactly what He was doing as He did it. Thereby we can then target this thing "God" with the attribute "evil" all the more easily.

I think you need to look at God's reasons when He supposedly hurts people.

 

[Fool]

When I ask believers why their god would allow a serial killer to abuse and murder a dozen innocent children over the course of his lifetime, I am often told that god is helpless to intervene because he gave us all ‘free will’ and that to intervene would be a violation of that ‘free will’. It sounds reasonable at first glance, but this argument doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.

I agree that if god were to snap his metaphorical fingers and magically take away the serial killer’s perverse desires or temporarily paralyze him any time he attempted to commit a wicked act that it would be a violation of free will. But why doesn’t god just snap his metaphorical fingers and give the guy a lethal heat attack? Obviously god deciding when a person’s life will come to an end isn’t a violation of their free will otherwise every single person who has ever died unwillingly has had their free will violated, which pretty much includes everyone except for people who commit suicide, sacrifice their lives for others, or are experiencing unendurable suffering.

So after this guy kills his first innocent child why doesn’t god decide to bring his life to an end? Even if god wanted to give the guy the chance to repent and seek forgiveness for his sins, why didn’t god give him a heart attack after the second innocent victim or the third? Why would a loving and caring god allow this maniac to kill a dozen little children and end up dying peacefully in his sleep in his late 80’s?


It obviously has nothing to do with god being helpless to intervene because of the killer’s free will.

doing what is right and doing what one wants are not the same thing. plenty of people will go to prison because they do what they want and will continue to do so to their own detriment. No one or anything else can necessarily change their mind about service to self vs service to all as self. there is no god apart from self that can change minds because the mind is made and closed-minded.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Good. I'm pleased for you.

Still waiting for God evidence for God claims.

What I've learned is that nobody seems to have any.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I think you need to look at God's reasons when He supposedly hurts people.

"Supposedly" - boy... deny, deny, deny! Right?

As a human being with a very limited scope of knowledge about past and future, how can I be expected to understand that God's motives for doing things are actually better for humanity as a whole in some "long run?" Doesn't something like that idea need to be evidenced to me in some clear way before I should be expected to accept it? If God does things like wipe out humanity, and the re-establish it only for it to end up in basically the same relative condition down the road, does things like allow murderers to get away with many multiple murders, allow those who represent Him to sexually fondle (and worse) children expecting us to trust that those criminals will get their "just desserts" at some point down the line, if we get hit with tragedy after tragedy (natural disasters, disease, humans warring against each other) and there seems to be no help coming - then how am I supposed to see that "the greater good" is somehow on the way? When does that happen? For my children? For my children's children? When are we allowed to finally say: "Hey up there! A lot of people I care about down here are getting hurt! Does this really end up being 'for the greater good?'" Aren't questions like that completely valid? Why would God, or those that represent Him squirm away from them so zealously? Why not answer? Give the details... not just platitudes that try and allay fears, but actually RELAY THE PLAN! You can say you are trying... but it is no "plan" - at least not one that even tries to make any sense at all. And that's a big, big problem. If you can't see it... then you are, most certainly, part of the problem. You and those who think like you are no solution.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You have to actually listen to what God says if you want to understand.
This is not life, this is death.
Every person, plant, animal, life form, and the earth itself are in the process of dying.
This is what Jesus spent much of his life trying to teach.
He also showed the example of what has to happen to receive life,
we must first suffer through death.
Life is eternal, and far too valuable a gift to give away without a price.
And we dont have to spend our time here in constant fear of death,
as if it were the worst thing possible. He is more powerful than death.
God allowing his Son to suffer death was the only way their could be a resurrection.
And seeing evil is the only way to know what good is.
That's why its referred to as a gospel. It's good news.

How does anyone "actually listen to what God says?"

There seem to be a lot of people who think they're "listening to what God says" that have a whole bunch of conflicting ideas with other people who think they're "listening to what God says."

 

[muhammad_isa]

..If you can't see it... then you are, most certainly, part of the problem.

..see what?
I see that G-d is eternal.
I see that we all have a part of G-d in us, called a soul.
I see that this life is like "a blink of an eye".

I see that one who judges without proper knowledge will assume that eternal Divine justice is just people's wishful thinking.

..over to you.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

..see what?
I see that G-d is eternal.
I see that we all have a part of G-d in us, called a soul.
I see that this life is like "a blink of an eye".

I see that one who judges without proper knowledge will assume that eternal Divine justice is just people's wishful thinking.

..over to you.

You didn't say anything of any import whatsoever. I will not be picking up whatever it is you think you have just laid down. Maybe try peddling your goofy wares somewhere else perhaps?

 

[muhammad_isa]

You didn't say anything of any import whatsoever. I will not be picking up whatever it is you think you have just laid down. Maybe try peddling your goofy wares somewhere else perhaps?

"If you can't see it... then you are, most certainly, part of the problem."

It is life after death that really counts.
Both Jesus and Muhammad taught this.
It is you who doesn't seem to "see it".

 

[SkepticThinker]

"If you can't see it... then you are, most certainly, part of the problem."

It is life after death that really counts.
Both Jesus and Muhammad taught this.
It is you who doesn't seem to "see it".

As I see it, this life we're currently living is the only life we know we get for sure. So I'm not going to hinge my hopes and dreams that there is some life after this one I am currently living. If there is one, I guess that would just be a bonus. But I'm not banking on it.
Instead, I'm going to recognize how precious this life is, in light of that fact, and do the best I can to ensure it's the best it can be for myself and the rest of the people I share the planet with.

Life after death really counts? Nah, it's this life we're living NOW.

 

[F1fan]

I believe in respect, dignity, and humanity. All I can say if knowledge became knowledge of good and evil, omniscience became knowledge. Would you believe the human race is susceptible to temptation, and Christ became human to deliver it of?

None of the Jesus myth is believable. Jesus was a software patch from a bad design, and it still fixed nothing.

 

[F1fan]

What is incoherent about G-d creating ANY other environment for us to live in?

Are you asking why God shouldn't have created a world with deadly bacteria and virus? Or deadly predators like lions and alligators that kill many humans? Seriously, do we humans need to be attacked by sharks when we win in the ocean? Sharks have been around for 25 million years, while we humans have only been around for about 150,000 years, maybe sharks and bacteria are Gods chosen and humans are just food for them.

Why should G-d interfere with our lives in the way you suggest?

Well yeah, if we humans are special. Shouldn't God intervene if a shark attacks us? After all, other humans have intervened to save another human. What's God's problem?

Is "because He is able to" a good reason?

If you are drowning and there is someone in a boat just watching you drown, is that a good and moral person?

It seems you don't really think through your questions here.

Whatever scenario you come up with as an alternative, implies a world in which G-d prevents attrocities.
..hence is the same as "why didn't G-d put us all in paradise from day 1?"

No one is asking for paradise, they are just asking to not create humans that conspire with each other to round up, imprison, and murder a large religious group on the continent. Would it have been too hard for God to not create Adolph Hitler? Hitler survived two close calls in the trenches of WW1. One was a fortunate trip to get coffee for his fellow soldiers, all of who died when an artillery shell hit them. Another was a mustard gas attack, and he ended up in a hospital for weeks. Hitler also survived 44 assassination attempts, some were total luck. So it seems God protected Hitler if anything.

Clearly, G-d hasn't done that.
His creatures experience pleasure and pain in many ways. Are you suggesting that is "wrong" as well, and that we should only experience pleasure?

Almost as if we aren't any more special than any other animal, in a universe where a God doesn't exist as some humans believe.

It seems to me, that your complaints about reality will not achieve anything. You merely make a mockery of existence.

I suggest the mockery is theists who insist humans are special, yet we observe humans being subject to the same conditions as any other animal.

G-d has explained to us how we can overcome evil, and it is not by claiming "it is not fair".
G-d is fully aware of what is fair and what is not.
He allows us to taste the tyranny of one another.
He has left it up to us to eradicate evil. He knows why He has done that. He knows that many will go astray.
He gives life, and He takes life.

Yet the problem isn't most people. It's a select few who were born with mental defects and flaws that makes them do horrible things for their own power and satisfaction. the question is why God made these evil people that the rest of us have to deal with, and often aren't able to because these clever people attract so many followers who will do their bidding. Why does your God create Hitlers? If evil is a problem, don't create problems.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

"If you can't see it... then you are, most certainly, part of the problem."

It is life after death that really counts.
Both Jesus and Muhammad taught this.
It is you who doesn't seem to "see it".

You're absolutely right. I don't see it. Where is it so that I can take a look?

 

[QuestioningMind]

What is incoherent about G-d creating ANY other environment for us to live in?
Why should G-d interfere with our lives in the way you suggest?
Is "because He is able to" a good reason?

Whatever scenario you come up with as an alternative, implies a world in which G-d prevents attrocities.
..hence is the same as "why didn't G-d put us all in paradise from day 1?"

Clearly, G-d hasn't done that.
His creatures experience pleasure and pain in many ways. Are you suggesting that is "wrong" as well, and that we should only experience pleasure?

It seems to me, that your complaints about reality will not achieve anything. You merely make a mockery of existence.
G-d has explained to us how we can overcome evil, and it is not by claiming "it is not fair".
G-d is fully aware of what is fair and what is not.
He allows us to taste the tyranny of one another.
He has left it up to us to eradicate evil. He knows why He has done that. He knows that many will go astray.
He gives life, and He takes life.

This life is as a "blink of an eye" compared to eternity.
No soul will suffer more than what is appointed for it, and those that have been wronged will be more than happy with the compensation that is waiting for them, if they indeed "enjoin righteousness and forbid evil".

You are saying that you think G-d should do it, but G-d wants US to do it.
It seems that most of us are failing miserably.

Did you even bother to read my OP? I'M not advocating for anything. I'm repeating an argument I've heard some theists make and pointing out that it isn't a valid argument. IF god doesn't intervene because of free will THEN taking the life of a serial child killer would NOT violate their free will. I'm not claiming that this god should or shouldn't do anything. I'm just saying that IF you god gives life and TAKES life, he COULD be able to take a serial killers life after he kills 2 victims instead of waiting for him to kill 12.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'm just saying that IF you god gives life and TAKES life, he COULD be able to take a serial killers life after he kills 2 victims instead of waiting for him to kill 12.

G-d could have arranged for a different world in which evil could do little damage .. so?

 

[MonkeyFire]

None of the Jesus myth is believable. Jesus was a software patch from a bad design, and it still fixed nothing.

I dont care about your opinion. Believe or stop existing, literally there is no hope without. Its in black and white.

 

[QuestioningMind]

G-d could have arranged for a different world in which evil could do little damage .. so?

Do you have difficulty comprehending simple English? I am NOT advocating that god should or shouldn't do ANYTHING. My entire OP is about whether or not god taking the life of a serial killer violates the killers free will. You can either respond that it does or that it doesn't. YOU'RE the only one talking about how god could have made a different world where evil does little damage.

So do you care to answer the question posed in the OP or do you want to continue to blather on about subjects that don't pertain to the OP?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I dont care about your opinion. Believe or stop existing, literally there is no hope without. Its in black and white.

What?

 

[MonkeyFire]

What?

I believe in life, and truth. Hope and truth, are a powerful combination, no?

 

[robocop (actually)]

"Supposedly" - boy... deny, deny, deny! Right?

As a human being with a very limited scope of knowledge about past and future, how can I be expected to understand that God's motives for doing things are actually better for humanity as a whole in some "long run?" Doesn't something like that idea need to be evidenced to me in some clear way before I should be expected to accept it? If God does things like wipe out humanity, and the re-establish it only for it to end up in basically the same relative condition down the road, does things like allow murderers to get away with many multiple murders, allow those who represent Him to sexually fondle (and worse) children expecting us to trust that those criminals will get their "just desserts" at some point down the line, if we get hit with tragedy after tragedy (natural disasters, disease, humans warring against each other) and there seems to be no help coming - then how am I supposed to see that "the greater good" is somehow on the way? When does that happen? For my children? For my children's children? When are we allowed to finally say: "Hey up there! A lot of people I care about down here are getting hurt! Does this really end up being 'for the greater good?'" Aren't questions like that completely valid? Why would God, or those that represent Him squirm away from them so zealously? Why not answer? Give the details... not just platitudes that try and allay fears, but actually RELAY THE PLAN! You can say you are trying... but it is no "plan" - at least not one that even tries to make any sense at all. And that's a big, big problem. If you can't see it... then you are, most certainly, part of the problem. You and those who think like you are no solution.

i cannot help you.. you would do well to decide for yourself what is good and bad and judge God accordingly.