“Common sense” question for an evolutionist

[Twilight Hue]

Evolution does follow with common sense.

It is possible that very small primate relatives could possibly evolve flight the same way flying squirrels and bats evolved from small mammals. Humans are too far along the evolutionary tree to evolve flight, because primarily our bone structure and size, but of course, we evolved intelligence and therefore we can fly.

That pretty much stole my thunder. Very good response. In fact we humans have been to the Moon! Now that's flying!

 

[Subduction Zone]

I guess it depends on if we're talking about 'human' as a sociological term or 'human' as a taxonomic term equivalent to 'homo'. Although both don't necessarily have hard answers, imo.

I would say as a sociological term the answer would be no. As a cladistic term the answer is that it is possible, but extinction is much more likely.

 

[Kemosloby]

Like Angels?

 

[Windwalker]

What would you say... is this statement worthy of any consideration? Is the human species capable of giving rise to a flying descendant, or is this idea outright impossible?

I'm imagining something akin to our whale cousins, a mammal that adapts to life in the water and loses his limbs. Can we fly through water? Yes, many are already well adapted to swim. Now imagine another million years, and the necessity of sustenance from the oceans. We are too far away from being able to fly in the skies, but I rather like the idea of a return to our Mother the Sea.

 

[shunyadragon]

Depends upon the environment. Either humans adapt or they perish. That's how Evolution works.

That pretty much stole my thunder. Very good response. In fact we humans have been to the Moon! Now that's flying!

Wishful hopeful thinking, and the Law of Gravity

Where do we go when reason’s path ends?
Remains a mystery without end.
Some believe it is back again and again.
Others believe it is streets gold or Satan’s barbecue in the end.
. . . and in the end their way is the only way to go.

Some say nothing is the blessing,
Others say they do not know,
Others do not care to know.
Some do the rope-a-dope, and wiggle and squirm,
. . . and in the end fear what they do not know.

The Theory of Gravity never cares nor lies,
Whether six stories or sixty.
In reality we do not know why,
The Theory of Gravity remains a mystery.
. . . and as Icarus learned when we flap our arms nobody flies.

God is not a chess player
God is the sea,
And we are the fishes.

Frank A. Doonan
Orange Dog Poet.

 

[Crossboard]

Is the following statement logical or is it illogical…?

“Human beings have the capability to someday fly."

What would you say... is this statement worthy of any consideration? Is the human species capable of giving rise to a flying descendant, or is this idea outright impossible?

My own answer.. “outright impossible.”
Why? I can’t see a human mother birthing a child that...
a) can fly, or
b) possesses the minute beginnings of characteristics for flight.

Anyone happen to find agreement with this basic reasoning?

 

[Windwalker]

God is the sea,
And we are the fishes.
.

That's rather ironic, considering what I posted in the post just a second before you did this! (I love these sorts of moments. Wonderful. Thank you).

 

[shunyadragon]

That's rather ironic, considering what I posted in the post just a second before you did this! (I love these sorts of moments).

We crossed paths in the great cloud of ones and zeros without even flapping our arms.

 

[shunyadragon]

My own answer.. “outright impossible.”
Why? I can’t see a human mother birthing a child that...
a) can fly, or
b) possesses the minute beginnings of characteristics for flight.

Anyone happen to find agreement with this basic reasoning?

Icarus found this out.

 

[Subduction Zone]

My own answer.. “outright impossible.”
Why? I can’t see a human mother birthing a child that...
a) can fly, or
b) possesses the minute beginnings of characteristics for flight.

Anyone happen to find agreement with this basic reasoning?

It is extremely poor reasoning. It shows a lack of understanding of how evolution occurs.

I can't imagine a Latin speaking mother giving birth to a Spanish speaking child, yet we know that Spanish arose from Latin.

 

[blü 2]

Is the following statement logical or is it illogical…?

“Human beings have the capability to someday fly."

Well, millions of humans fly all over the world every day.

But if you mean 'take to the air like birds without lab intervention', then you'd need a scenario like:

Humans as the only important large species eg on a different planet.

And a collapse of civilization so that humans live in a growing diversity of tribes.

And a long long long long time during which various groups adapt to various ecological niches.

Then perhaps (unlikely but we're being imaginative here) some small-statured, lightly built branch will take to the air, evolving their (arms and) hands into wings eg as bats have done (bats on the evolutionary tree are right next to the primates).


A belated PS to this post: human intelligence is a vastly better means of surviving than flying, so we need to add to our assumptions that significant branches of humanity have much-reduced intelligence, and it would be from one of those branches that evolving flight would make sense.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well, millions of humans fly all over the world every day.

But if you mean 'take to the air like birds without lab intervention', then you'd need a scenario like:

Humans as the only important large species eg on a different planet.

And a collapse of civilization so that humans live in a growing diversity of tribes.

And a long long long long time during which various groups adapt to various ecological niches.

Then perhaps (unlikely but we're being imaginative here) some small-statured, lightly built branch will take to the air, evolving their (arms and) hands into wings eg as bats have done (bats on the evolutionary tree are right next to the primates).

Agreed, and as a result of those changes those offspring though cladistically "humans" would have lost many of the characteristics that we call human. I can't see the resulting species having a very great intelligence at all.

 

[columbus]

My own answer.. “outright impossible.”
Why? I can’t see a human mother birthing a child that...
a) can fly, or
b) possesses the minute beginnings of characteristics for flight.

Anyone happen to find agreement with this basic reasoning?

Back when I was in high school, we read something written in the mid 19th century by a very learned English lord. He happened to have inherited a fleet of sail cargo ships.
He demonstrated very scientifically that it was impossible for a coal powered ship to cross the Atlantic, London to New York. No ship could float with enough coal to power it all the way across, much less profitably carry cargo.
Tom

 

[David T]

Is the following statement logical or is it illogical…?

“Human beings have the capability to someday fly."

What would you say... is this statement worthy of any consideration? Is the human species capable of giving rise to a flying descendant, or is this idea outright impossible?

The question is an invalid question. Are you going to win the lotto tomorrow? So since the question has no validity itself, it can, nor cannot validate or invalidate anything. The question is a noise, it's not a something. To even attempt to answer it is to not remotely understand evolution at all.

 

[sayak83]

My own answer.. “outright impossible.”
Why? I can’t see a human mother birthing a child that...
a) can fly, or
b) possesses the minute beginnings of characteristics for flight.

Anyone happen to find agreement with this basic reasoning?

Evolution happens in small steps. So a) is impossible.
Basic physics restricts flight to very light animals (birds, bats etc.) So the first step towards evolution to flight would be a trend towards smaller humans that continues until humans weigh the same as a pigeon or an eagle. Currently that is not favored for us humans. We are large long lived land mammals adapted to open plains, and decreasing of size is not a good thing.

 

[Darkstorn]

My own answer.. “outright impossible.”
Why? I can’t see a human mother birthing a child that...
a) can fly, or
b) possesses the minute beginnings of characteristics for flight.

Anyone happen to find agreement with this basic reasoning?

While I think humans evolving flight would be practically impossible, not to mention not beneficial considering the costs, your reasoning there is a well known logical fallacy called an argument from incredulity.

You basically got lucky in this particular instance in the way that this time your imagination matches what's basically known.

BUT then again anything could happen in the future so even that could technically change. No matter how hard it is to imagine it.

Therefore an argument from incredulity has no value in a debate, except to show the limits of a person's imagination.

I.E your reasoning isn't basic reasoning. It's you asserting, without showing us how you arrived to such a conclusion to begin with, that you cannot imagine something happening. Reasoning would be the part where you tell us "how."

Just trying to be helpful. I can't imagine humans flying without tools in any realistic scenario either. But I'm going to give humanity the benefit of the doubt. Maybe we can mess up so bad that self-powered flight is the only way to survive.

 

[Curious George]

My own answer.. “outright impossible.”
Why? I can’t see a human mother birthing a child that...
a) can fly, or
b) possesses the minute beginnings of characteristics for flight.

Anyone happen to find agreement with this basic reasoning?

So far you have told us piles can't exist? Is that about right?

 

[LuisDantas]

Is the following statement logical or is it illogical…?

“Human beings have the capability to someday fly."

By biological means, you mean?

Hard to tell, and of very little practical significance, since the technological means to fly have been developed already. We are just not very likely to ever go through the rather involved series of mutations necessary to overcome our own current adaptations to the extent that would make us natural fliers.

It must be understood that natural selection is indeed natural, and much of current human culture directs and/or undermines it regarding humans themselves.

 

[Altfish]

"The heaviest bird ever capable of flight was Argentavis magnificens, the largest member of the now extinct family Teratornithidae, found in Miocene-aged fossil beds of Argentina, with a wingspan up to 5–6 m (16–20 ft), a length of up to 1.26 m (4.1 ft), a height on the ground of up to 1.5–2 m (4.9–6.6 ft) and a body weight of at least 71 kg (157 lb)"
Source: Wikipedia​

If you can imagine a 157 pound human with a wing span of 16-20 feet perhaps you have your flying human.

.

Can you imagine the size and strength of the muscles that will be needed to flap those wings!!

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Is the following statement logical or is it illogical…?

“Human beings have the capability to someday fly."

What would you say... is this statement worthy of any consideration? Is the human species capable of giving rise to a flying descendant, or is this idea outright impossible?

Common sense question for someone who formulates a question like the above:

Would a creature that had evolved from a human into something with a light-weight frame and wings enough to fly still be classified as "human?"