“The Son is equal to his Father”

[Kenny]

Then quote from either Collossians or Phillippeans.

Phil 2: 5 Have this same attitude in yourselves which was in Christ Jesus [look to Him as your example in selfless humility], 6 who, although He existed in the form and unchanging essence of God [as One with Him, possessing the fullness of all the divine attributes—the entire nature of deity], did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped or asserted [as if He did not already possess it, or was afraid of losing it]; 7 but emptied Himself [without renouncing or diminishing His deity, but only temporarily giving up the outward expression of divine equality and His rightful dignity] by assuming the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men [He became completely human but was without sin, being fully God and fully man].

-- not that this is relevant as is certainly not what Judeo Christians Believed .. but am curious.

LOL… nice statement but no support.

We realize the Bible speaks of pre-existence -- the point being that the early Judeo Christians -- having the story of Mark to go by .. did not believe Jesus was pre-existent with God .. as a God .. but let us hear where Paul speaks of this.

LOL… there were many things that they did not know… like Gentiles being accepted. But, regardless, there is no scripture that says they didn’t believe

I did not speak of the Word as a soul .. I spoke of Jesus being a soul .. pre- existing prior to coming down as a human.

Yes… I hear you.

Talking about the Jesus of Mark .. not "The Logos" of John.

They are one in the same

 

[Kenny]

Kenny, why do you say that Jesus is ‘The Word’…?

What does ‘The Word’ mean and how does it make Jesus to be ‘God’?

Kenny, what does it mean to be ‘God’?

Do you even know that it means to be “God”?

 

[Soapy]

Do you even know that it means to be “God”?

Deception is the at the core of trinitarianism. It has to be in order to maintain itself.

Trinitarians can’t afford to state what they claim as ‘God’ since doing so in an honest, forthright, holy, and reverent way would expose their ignorance of the truth.

Kenny, you just undermined exactly what I just said. By refusing to answer simply, plain, considered questions that might have help (if true) to understand YOUR point of view, you create a mystery that openly shows you do not know or you realise that any exposure of your belief means a surety of a fallacy regarding what you believe.

Thanks Kenny, don’t apologise… you did me a favour by not answering to what I asked you!!!

 

[Kenny]

Deception is the at the core of trinitarianism. It has to be in order to maintain itself.

Trinitarians can’t afford to state what they claim as ‘God’ since doing so in an honest, forthright, holy, and reverent way would expose their ignorance of the truth.

Kenny, you just undermined exactly what I just said. By refusing to answer simply, plain, considered questions that might have help (if true) to understand YOUR point of view, you create a mystery that openly shows you do not know or you realise that any exposure of your belief means a surety of a fallacy regarding what you believe.

Thanks Kenny, don’t apologise… you did me a favour by not answering to what I asked you!!!

Why lay down pearls of truth to one who doesn’t have ears to hear?

 

[YoursTrue]

Deception is the at the core of trinitarianism. It has to be in order to maintain itself.

Trinitarians can’t afford to state what they claim as ‘God’ since doing so in an honest, forthright, holy, and reverent way would expose their ignorance of the truth.

Kenny, you just undermined exactly what I just said. By refusing to answer simply, plain, considered questions that might have help (if true) to understand YOUR point of view, you create a mystery that openly shows you do not know or you realise that any exposure of your belief means a surety of a fallacy regarding what you believe.

Thanks Kenny, don’t apologise… you did me a favour by not answering to what I asked you!!!

Actually, Soapy, Kenny asked a good question. Maybe I missed your answer. This is one reason I have not replied to you for a while, because of your belligerent attitude. Kenny did ask a good question.

 

[Ajax]

Not really… Paul mentioned it way before John did in Colossians and Philippians.

Thats not the question at all ? Just a statement of fact that it isn't there- folks prior to John 100-120 AD - did not and had no scriptural reason to believe in pre-existence - let that mean what you will ...

The fact that the many authors of a work called the Bible, contradict each other, as well as themselves, makes the book completely unreliable. The same result applies to the times when the overwhelming majority of people were illiterate, the news were spread by hearsay and the author(s) who wrote what you uphold, were the last to write it, some 70 years after the death of Jesus. Let alone the fact that it was officially established 125 years after it was written.

1) 1 Cor 15:28 "When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, so that God may be everything to every one."

2) 1 Cor 11:3 "But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God."

3) Rom 1:8 "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ."

4) Acts 3:13 "The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus.."

5) John 14:28 "for the Father is greater than I."

6) John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent."

7) John 20:17 "I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God."

 

[Kenny]

The fact that the many authors of a work called the Bible, contradict each other, as well as themselves, makes the book completely unreliable. The same result applies to the times when the overwhelming majority of people were illiterate, the news were spread by hearsay and the author(s) who wrote what you uphold, were the last to write it, some 70 years after the death of Jesus. Let alone the fact that it was officially established 125 years after it was written.

1) 1 Cor 15:28 "When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, so that God may be everything to every one."

2) 1 Cor 11:3 "But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God."

3) Rom 1:8 "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ."

4) Acts 3:13 "The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus.."

5) John 14:28 "for the Father is greater than I."

6) John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent."

7) John 20:17 "I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God."

I suppose that if we mine scriptures without context, you can make it say whatever you want to

 

[YoursTrue]

The fact that the many authors of a work called the Bible, contradict each other, as well as themselves, makes the book completely unreliable. The same result applies to the times when the overwhelming majority of people were illiterate, the news were spread by hearsay and the author(s) who wrote what you uphold, were the last to write it, some 70 years after the death of Jesus. Let alone the fact that it was officially established 125 years after it was written.

1) 1 Cor 15:28 "When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, so that God may be everything to every one."

2) 1 Cor 11:3 "But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God."

3) Rom 1:8 "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ."

4) Acts 3:13 "The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus.."

5) John 14:28 "for the Father is greater than I."

6) John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent."

7) John 20:17 "I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God."

Looked at properly, they're not contradictory.

 

[Sargonski]

Phil 2: 5 Have this same attitude in yourselves which was in Christ Jesus [look to Him as your example in selfless humility], 6 who, although He existed in the form and unchanging essence of God [as One with Him, possessing the fullness of all the divine attributes—the entire nature of deity], did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped or asserted [as if He did not already possess it, or was afraid of losing it]; 7 but emptied Himself [without renouncing or diminishing His deity, but only temporarily giving up the outward expression of divine equality and His rightful dignity] by assuming the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men [He became completely human but was without sin, being fully God and fully man].



LOL… nice statement but no support.


LOL… there were many things that they did not know… like Gentiles being accepted. But, regardless, there is no scripture that says they didn’t believe



Yes… I hear you.


They are one in the same

Not sure what all the schoolgirl giggling is about -- .. You want support for the fact that Judeo Christians did not pay much attention to Paul ? there is plenty of scripture saying they did not believe in Pauline ranting to the Gentiles.. someone they barely tolerated .. never mind followed.

Do you not understand the schism between Jews and Gentiles friend ?

Anyhow .. Paul never met Jesus .. knows nothing of his life .. cool scripture from Phillipeans .. especially the equality part but.. this is being misinterpreted as meaning direct equality with God .. certainly a translational issue from greek to english .. mistaking some kind of colloquialism for as we see later on in the passage .. God Exaults Jesus to the Highest Place.. which would be completely unnecessary if Jesus and God were Equal .. and further .. an Entity that is Equal is not Lord to the Glory of the Father ..


Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

His Godly nature is somehow being equated or better translated as "one with God" perhaps .. or favored by God .. such that he is not being taken advantage .. but anywhoo .. no matter .. as Jesus never claimed such about himself in the original Story .. .. nor the revised edition 1 .. nor the revised edition 2 .. No Pre-Existence and certainly not equality with the Father anywhere to be found in the synoptic gospels.

What can be found is hundreds of verses where Jesus clearly identifies God as other than himself .. and what ever divinity we accord to Jesus .. he is subordinate to the father .. according to all of the Early Church Fathers up 250AD (sans tertullian but he was deemed heresy in any case)

Jesus didn't become co-equal with the father until the 4th century AD

 

[Sargonski]

Why lay down pearls of truth to one who doesn’t have ears to hear?

Thats funny Ken .. those smart pills you are referring to as "Pearls" har har har .. Smart Pills ..

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Do you even know that it means to be “God”?

God's Word as in Jesus being God's Spokesman.
God's Word is Scripture and Jesus being God's Word spoke what God wanted him to speak - John 12:49; 5:19, 30; 8:28

 

[Eli G]

... No Pre-Existence (...) anywhere to be found in the synoptic gospels. ...

Maybe no in Matthew, Luke or Mark, but John wrote enough about that:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence (...) 14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he cried out: “This was the one of whom I said, ‘The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, for he existed before me.’”) (...) 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.

... 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man. (...) 31 The one who comes from above is over all others. The one who is from the earth is from the earth and speaks of things of the earth. The one who comes from heaven is over all others. (...)

... 6:33 For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” (...) 38 for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me. (...) 62 What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?

... 8:23 He went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. 24 That is why I said to you: You will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am the one, you will die in your sins.” (...) 57 Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.

... 17:1 Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, (...) 5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

 

[Ebionite]

So would you say it's a personal name? Seems that you do not, but rather it's a descriptive title, like king, person, population, etc.

Yes, Elohim is not a personal name.

 

[Ebionite]

Yes, Elohim is a 'title' such as 'Lord' and 'God' are titles and Not a personal name.
In other words, Elohim and Adhonai are a substitution and Not the Tetragrammaton YHWH

Elohim is a plural word, so it isn't like the singular title Lord. The grammar for Elohim usually treats it as if it were singular, though.

 

[Eli G]

When the apostasy began sometime in the second century AD, it seems that depersonalizing God and turning him into a kind of abstraction was one of the goals of the Devil (who sowed the weeds).

By depersonalizing God it was no longer easy to distinguish Him from among the different pagan deities, because they turned him into a kind of essence, family name, race or even a directive commission...

No first century Christians or Jews had that idea about God. They knew that God is a person who occupies a Supreme position and who dictates everything in the manner of Majesty. He is an individual Spirit Being.

When Christians began to testify about the living God to the Gentiles, they did not tell them that Jesus was God or that God was anything other than a real Spirit individual person... They could not begin talking about the Messiah without first telling them who the God was who had sent his Messiah. The Jews already knew about God, but the Gentiles had to know Him BEFORE understanding Jesus' role in His purpose.

So the Gentiles did not learn a confusing God from the mouths of the early Christians, but the same God that the Jews had. It was the subsequent apostasy that changed the notion of the identity of God to something abstract and collective.

When you cannot identify God as the person He is, it is impossible to worship Him in a true sense (John 17:3).

 

[Ebionite]

YHWH himself tells us that he was not known by the name YHWH

Apparently that is a mistranslation. It seems to have been a rhetorical question but there is no question mark in Hebrew to make that clear. Clearly Abram did know the name of YHWH.

 

[Kenny]

Not sure what all the schoolgirl giggling is about --

Your statements made me giggle

.. You want support for the fact that Judeo Christians did not pay much attention to Paul ?

Yes

there is plenty of scripture saying they did not believe in Pauline ranting to the Gentiles.. someone they barely tolerated .. never mind followed.

no - that were what the Bible calls Judaizers. They actually gave Paul the right hand of fellowship

Do you not understand the schism between Jews and Gentiles friend ?

yes

Anyhow .. Paul never met Jesus .

Yes, he did.

. knows nothing of his life ..

Interesting, and yet Jesus told him about the Lord’s supper. For someone who never met him, that was quite a feat.

cool scripture from Phillipeans .. especially the equality part but.. this is being misinterpreted as meaning direct equality with God .. certainly a translational issue from greek to english

That’s because it doesn’t fit your theology

.. mistaking some kind of colloquialism for as we see later on in the passage .. God Exaults Jesus to the Highest Place.. which would be completely unnecessary if Jesus and God were Equal .. and further .. an Entity that is Equal is not Lord to the Glory of the Father ..

Not if you understand why He did what He did and what He had to do to accomplish it.

Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

The problem is that you are equating “The Word who was God” with the manifestation of The Word when He came as a man

His Godly nature is somehow being equated or better translated as "one with God" perhaps .. or favored by God .. such that he is not being taken advantage .. but anywhoo .. no matter .. as Jesus never claimed such about himself in the original Story .. .. nor the revised edition 1 .. nor the revised edition 2 .. No Pre-Existence and certainly not equality with the Father anywhere to be found in the synoptic gospels.

What can be found is hundreds of verses where Jesus clearly identifies God as other than himself .. and what ever divinity we accord to Jesus .. he is subordinate to the father .. according to all of the Early Church Fathers up 250AD (sans tertullian but he was deemed heresy in any case)

Jesus didn't become co-equal with the father until the 4th century AD

No. 4th Century AD was about making sure that the message didn’t change:

It actually started way before such as:

169–181: Theophilus of Antioch​

...the three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity, God, his Word, and his Wisdom.

— To Autolycus 2:15[31]

I don’t think 169 - 184 is 4th century

 

[Ajax]

I suppose that if we mine scriptures without context, you can make it say whatever you want to

Oh really??
What is the context in... when all things are subjected to God, then the Son himself will also be subjected to God?
What is the context in... the head of every man is Christ and the head of Christ is God?
What is the context in.. Paul thanking his God through Jesus Christ?
What is the context in.. Jesus described in Acts as God's servant?
What is the context in.. Jesus confessing that there is only one true God and his Father is his God?

Evidence please...

I will paraphrase your answer...sometimes with "context" you may present the most wild claims..

 

[Soapy]

Why lay down pearls of truth to one who doesn’t have ears to hear?

Yes, that is so true…. Kenny, you are right… But we should at least show you the Pearls (of wisdom) so that you make yourself guilty in light of the revelation.

 

[Soapy]

Your statements made me giggle


Yes

no - that were what the Bible calls Judaizers. They actually gave Paul the right hand of fellowship

yes


Yes, he did.

Interesting, and yet Jesus told him about the Lord’s supper. For someone who never met him, that was quite a feat.

That’s because it doesn’t fit your theology

Not if you understand why He did what He did and what He had to do to accomplish it.

The problem is that you are equating “The Word who was God” with the manifestation of The Word when He came as a man

No. 4th Century AD was about making sure that the message didn’t change:

It actually started way before such as:

169–181: Theophilus of Antioch
...the three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity, God, his Word, and his Wisdom.

— To Autolycus 2:15[31]

I don’t think 169 - 184 is 4th century

‘God’
‘His Word’
‘His Wisdom’

And these three are GOD?

God’s word is God?

‘The man’s very word was the man’!!!?

Kenny, when do you stop and listen to yourself?
Oh, you already do… hence you can’t listen for the truth? I see!!!