“Christianized” mysticism

[Windwalker]

I do find it sad. So little trust you have on God that you think sitting for fifteen minutes in peace and deatachment to better know the beautiful body and mind he gave to you will make you the target of demon attacks.

Like seriously, have some faith. God made you in his semblance, yet you pretend to be so weak you cant enjoy your own breath in peace.

That is so beautifully put! I look forward to my daily meditation and cherish them, and someday find it so hard to get up and walk away. Today was one such day. But I carry that with me through the day, and it is only one 'look' away. I am up to 90 minutes meditation each morning. Words cannot express what embraces you and you embrace in this space.

Now, to compare that to our simple emotional impulses that we can't trust because "the heart is deceitfully wicked", is not only completely not the same thing, it is to pollute the luminous sacred with a dark imagination, it is to turn the face downward.

 

[InChrist]

Excuse me, but do you not see the inherent contradiction in your statement here? You say "My feelings" concern my story, is that "Truth is more important that feelings". So then your feelings here are not to be trusted either, just as mine aren't. Do you not see the short-circuit here?

If you had thoroughly read the exchange between Open Minded and me you should be aware that I was asked to specifically express my “feelings”, which I did. Yet, if you had paid attention to my post you would see that I clearly stated that I believe feelings, mine included, must line up with the scriptures to be truth. If my feelings are that there are other ways to reach God, besides through Jesus Christ alone...then I am deceived and my feelings are not based on the truth revealed by God in the scriptures.

I get that you don't trust your own feelings and need some external authority to trust, since you apparently need that. But don't then say that all others are incapable of having solid, clear, and important feelings that should and can in fact be trusted. What I said about what caused anguish for me, was the fact that the Spirit of God in my heart could not be reconciled with what I was being told from outside myself I should, or rather NEEDED to believe. I knew that voice in my heart, but I was being told and taught not to trust it, effectively suppressing Spirit. And that was done in the name of Bible Truth. It was not Bible truth, but someones interpretation of the Bible claimed to be God's word.

You are correct, there are times when I don’t trust my own feelings because I know very well that they cannot be trusted, (And you have done worse than your fathers, for behold, each one follows the dictates of his own evil heart, so that no one listens to Me. Jer. 16:12; “The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?Jer.17:9...And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. Mark 7:20-22)

The Bible clearly does exalt and point to Jesus Christ as the Savior of the world and the only way to reach God. This has been the historic Christian faith passed does since the time of Christ and the apostles. The work of the Holy Spirit is to make people aware of their sinful condition and need of Jesus the Savior. According to the scriptures, no one has the Holy Spirit inside of them until they have placed their trust and faith in Christ for forgiveness of their sins and salvation. So if you are not a Christian and are denying that Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and humans then you listening to another spirit, an anti-Christ spirit and not the Holy Spirit who inspired the words of biblical scripture.

[FONT=&quot]Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons...1 Timothy 4:1

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Anything that the Spirit, inside, subjectively, is grieved by, is your only witness you can and should trust. It is marvelously simple to twist the Bible to say whatever suits your own thoughts and lusts. But the voice of Spirit is clear. And the way to know it. The way to hear it. It not with the head, "lean not to your own understanding", but with the heart, to fall into that trust. It is resting spirit in Spirit. And that - that - is subjective.

Meditation takes you into the Subjective.

[/quote]

That is certainly true. Meditation can take you into the subjective and away from objective truth, the truth revealed by God the Creator to protect us from deception which comes by following our own subjective feelings.

God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:24

Do you call yourself a Christian? Just wondering since you seem to hold to ideas which are opposed to the Christian faith and this is a same faith debate section.

 

[InChrist]

Just to be clear what are the good fruits of the Spirit and bad fruits of the flesh ( or sin) according to the biblical scriptures:



Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Galatians 5: 9-25

 

[Windwalker]

You are correct, there are times when I don’t trust my own feelings because I know very well that they cannot be trusted, (And you have done worse than your fathers, for behold, each one follows the dictates of his own evil heart, so that no one listens to Me. Jer. 16:12; “The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?Jer.17:9...And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. Mark 7:20-22)

And as such, you will never learn to trust them. You should. Everyone should. I find that a tragic misapplication of Bible verses. It keeps one in a box, not free in Spirit. "And where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty". There is religion, and then there is Freedom.

That's fine for you if you need to not know that in yourself. Don't impose that on others with your interpretations and claims that is "God's Word". It is not. It is your word. I can quote those same verses with another meaning to them. You don't see how that is possible, do you?

That is certainly true. Meditation can take you into the subjective and away from objective truth, the truth revealed by God the Creator to protect us from deception which comes by following our own subjective feelings.

You should really read my last posts before this one. You speak not from experience, but ignorance. I speak from experience.

Do you call yourself a Christian? Just wondering since you seem to hold to ideas which are opposed to the Christian faith and this is a same faith debate section.

I have to say, your comments to OM are frankly offensive. Are you a Christian because you hold ideas with are opposed to other Christian's ideas? I believe Jesus is the Son of God. Now what that means to me undoubtedly is something you wouldn't be able to grasp, and it is not worth going that distance with you. You clearly are where you need to be at. Don't judge others for not being like you.

 

[Me Myself]

Just to be clear what are the good fruits of the Spirit and bad fruits of the flesh ( or sin) according to the biblical scriptures:



Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Galatians 5: 9-25

Meditation has been shown by numerous studies to decrease most of the negative stuff you mentioned and foment most of the positive stuff you mentioned.

So yes, it bears good fruit, and helps cut off the bad fruit.

 

[Windwalker]

Just to be clear what are the good fruits of the Spirit and bad fruits of the flesh ( or sin) according to the biblical scriptures:



Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Galatians 5: 9-25

Can an evil tree bear good fruit? Can a house divided stand? Are devils cast out by devils? These are questions Jesus asked. Is meditation of the devil when it bears good fruit?

This was my first question to you in this thread, now at 15 pages and has not yet been answered.

 

[Windwalker]

You are correct, there are times when I don’t trust my own feelings because I know very well that they cannot be trusted,

I wish to come back to this as this is central to your very complaint/criticism of mystical practices. I wish to take you into those verses you cite to support your fear and lack of trust of knowing your inner self, as I'm sure you have had some experience where you made poor judgement and suffered for it. However, to go to the extreme of misapplying Bible verses this way to justify cutting oneself off from their entire interiors, their subjective self, is to say the least throwing out the baby with the bathwater. It's more like treating an infected cut on the arm by cutting the arm off, and then justifying that by citing some reference to treating gangrene from the 16th century, which the infection had nothing to do with gangrene in the first place.

To the Bible verses you quoted:

(And you have done worse than your fathers, for behold, each one follows the dictates of his own evil heart, so that no one listens to Me. Jer. 16:12;

"No one listens to me." That's the key. If you cannot trust what is in your heart, how can you trust what you are hearing is God? Let me put this another way, if the heart is deceitful and wicked, then everything you look at and see in the world with be polluted by that. There is no way to claim being objective, because your very thoughts are skewed and will pollute whatever enters into them.

Please understand this. When you say your heart is decietful and wicked, you are incapable of hearing God. You are incapable of reading the Bible and hearing God. You cannot claim "God said this because it's right there on the pages of the book", because you are incapable of hearing what God says. The wicked heart, pollutes whatever it sees. "Having ears to hear they do not hear". Why? The answer is because of this. They are stuck in their own dark imaginations. They are relying on those. And as such, reading the Bible is not going to give you objective truth. You are incapable of seeing anything objectively.

Let me continue...

“The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?Jer.17:9

Who can know it? God. Can you know it? Yes. How? By setting aside what you think, by moving beyond how you imagine things to be, and allowing that "still small voice" to speak to your quite, listening mind. Then, and only then, will you be able to see and hear that voice of God. You cannot start from within yourself, read the Bible, and then imagine you "hear" God, and then come here and club people over the head with your supposed "Authority" of the Bible.

So, it appears the only way to heal that poisoned mind, is to go inside yourself. Into the subjective. Without this, everything you see, read, interpret, and understand will be filtered through this "deceitfully wicked" imagination. The mind must be transformed first.

Now you can and will argue that Christ makes that happen when you accept him. But that is magical thinking. It is a process of development to transform the mind. Paul says himself that we should transform ourselves by the renewing of the mind. And it is then and only then that "you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will" That is a purely subjective enterprise! This is the inner journey. That must take place first.

It is not some magical thing that you can cite and say "That happened when I was saved", and then proceed to walk all over the Bible with your dirty shoes. The mind must be constantly worked on from the inside. And that is not going to happen without going into the depths of the mind into the very soul itself.

...And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. Mark 7:20-22)

Exactly, and Amen. You need to transform what is inside by looking within and allowing Spirit to cleanse and renew you, to transform you into the "image of Christ". The meditative journey takes you directly into that. You can read books, your can read the Bible until your eyes fall out of your head, but unless you enter within yourself, beyond your ideas of what the truth is, those things you conceive of imagine is true, you will ever and only have just your thoughts. You start there, you end there.

 

[InChrist]

I wish to come back to this as this is central to your very complaint/criticism of mystical practices. I wish to take you into those verses you cite to support your fear and lack of trust of knowing your inner self...

So, it appears the only way to heal that poisoned mind, is to go inside yourself. Into the subjective. Without this, everything you see, read, interpret, and understand will be filtered through this "deceitfully wicked" imagination. The mind must be transformed first.

Now you can and will argue that Christ makes that happen when you accept him. But that is magical thinking. It is a process of development to transform the mind. Paul says himself that we should transform ourselves by the renewing of the mind. And it is then and only then that "you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will" That is a purely subjective enterprise! This is the inner journey. That must take place first.

It is not some magical thing that you can cite and say "That happened when I was saved", and then proceed to walk all over the Bible with your dirty shoes. The mind must be constantly worked on from the inside. And that is not going to happen without going into the depths of the mind into the very soul itself.


Exactly, and Amen. You need to transform what is inside by looking within and allowing Spirit to cleanse and renew you, to transform you into the "image of Christ". The meditative journey takes you directly into that. You can read books, your can read the Bible until your eyes fall out of your head, but unless you enter within yourself, beyond your ideas of what the truth is, those things you conceive of imagine is true, you will ever and only have just your thoughts. You start there, you end there.

I’m sorry to disappoint, but I don’t buy the new age belief (which is the same old age lie of Satan) to look within to the inner depths of self for wisdom or to really hear God. I’ve been there and done that.

“Mysticism is an attempt to gain ultimate knowledge of God by a direct experience that bypasses the mind. The strong influence of Catholic mysticism has helped immensely to transform the New Age Movement from being merely a counter-culture sub-culture to becoming a new source of spiritual vision for the world. Catholic mysticism has very effectively and subtly invaded many facets of life without being recognized or critically examined.”
Excerpt from:
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/mysticism-bennett.html

The idea you are presenting, that we can find truth or wisdom within ourselves, is diametrically opposed to the message of the scriptures which states that as sinful people we are alienated from God, our minds are darkened and we cannot hear from God, except the call of the holy Spirit to repent and receive Christ. According to the scriptures, it is only through faith in the shed blood and work of Jesus Christ at the cross that anyone can be reconciled to God. Only when one puts their faith in the saving work of Christ and the sinful nature is regenerated do they have access to God. Then their spiritual understanding is enlightened and the transformation process of the mind begins through the mind of Christ and following His revealed word.
But you have not so learned Christ, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness. Eph. 4:20-24

“The Greek word translated “repentance” carries the notion of a change of mind. Our thinking must be changed (transformed) from old, ungodly ways of thinking into new, godly ways of thinking. What we know in our minds to be true forms a conviction in our hearts of that truth, and that conviction in our hearts translates into action. Therefore, we must first renew our minds.
The only way to replace the error of the world’s way of thinking is to replace it with God’s truth, and the only infallible source of God’s truth is found in his revealed word, the Bible. “

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/renewing-the-mind.html#ixzz2Rh6Zp0X9





The thoughts you present in your posts validate my concerns about mysticism. Spending time in meditation, looking within, and having a mind open to the spiritual realm outside of Christ leads one to believe ideas which are opposed to the faith, truth, and good news once and for all revealed and delivered by the Creator God to the apostles and believers in Jesus Christ. Mysticism leads to false teachings and another gospel...very bad fruit indeed.

 

[Windwalker]

I understand your fear. I understand your responses stemming from that. They are irrational.

BTW, these are not "New Age". That is ignorance on parade.

 

[Me Myself]

I’m sorry to disappoint, but I don’t buy the new age belief (which is the same old age lie of Satan) to look within to the inner depths of self for wisdom or to really hear God. I’ve been there and done that.

“Mysticism is an attempt to gain ultimate knowledge of God by a direct experience that bypasses the mind. The strong influence of Catholic mysticism has helped immensely to transform the New Age Movement from being merely a counter-culture sub-culture to becoming a new source of spiritual vision for the world. Catholic mysticism has very effectively and subtly invaded many facets of life without being recognized or critically examined.”
Excerpt from:
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/mysticism-bennett.html

The idea you are presenting, that we can find truth or wisdom within ourselves, is diametrically opposed to the message of the scriptures which states that as sinful people we are alienated from God, our minds are darkened and we cannot hear from God, except the call of the holy Spirit to repent and receive Christ. According to the scriptures, it is only through faith in the shed blood and work of Jesus Christ at the cross that anyone can be reconciled to God. Only when one puts their faith in the saving work of Christ and the sinful nature is regenerated do they have access to God. Then their spiritual understanding is enlightened and the transformation process of the mind begins through the mind of Christ and following His revealed word.
But you have not so learned Christ, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness. Eph. 4:20-24

“The Greek word translated “repentance” carries the notion of a change of mind. Our thinking must be changed (transformed) from old, ungodly ways of thinking into new, godly ways of thinking. What we know in our minds to be true forms a conviction in our hearts of that truth, and that conviction in our hearts translates into action. Therefore, we must first renew our minds.
The only way to replace the error of the world’s way of thinking is to replace it with God’s truth, and the only infallible source of God’s truth is found in his revealed word, the Bible. “

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/renewing-the-mind.html#ixzz2Rh6Zp0X9





The thoughts you present in your posts validate my concerns about mysticism. Spending time in meditation, looking within, and having a mind open to the spiritual realm outside of Christ leads one to believe ideas which are opposed to the faith, truth, and good news once and for all revealed and delivered by the Creator God to the apostles and believers in Jesus Christ. Mysticism leads to false teachings and another gospel...very bad fruit indeed.

Confirmation bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What you say is directly opposed to the belief that God is closer to us than our own breath.

 

[Windwalker]

Confirmation bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What you say is directly opposed to the belief that God is closer to us than our own breath.

Amen.

I'm sorry I was harsh on her. But I want to say here one more time. She concluded her post calling what I said as "Bad Fruit". This bad fruit is an encouragment to trust in the voice of God, not your own understanding. And furthermore, still, after 15 pages she has yet to acknowledge everything we are saying that meditation increases every single one of the fruits of the spirit listed, and subdues the fruits of the flesh! "By their FRUITS you shall know them." She equates good fruits with "proper doctrine". Not good behaviors.

I do not need to say anything more. It speaks volumes for itself. "An evil tree cannot bear good fruit". "A house divided against itself cannot stand". End of story. All the rest is works of the flesh to try to justify itself as 'righteous'. That is not spiritual life.

 

[InChrist]

I understand your fear. I understand your responses stemming from that. They are irrational.

BTW, these are not "New Age". That is ignorance on parade.

I have nothing to fear since my life is in Christ the Savior and Creator of heaven and earth, but if you want to think I'm fearful it doesn't bother me. I''m not sure I understand your concern over rationality when you are the one telling me to let my mind go into the subjective and leave rational thinking and objectivity behind.

Whether or not the mysticism we are discussing is called "new age" or not the results are the same... a departure from the revealed truths of the scriptures into false teachings and doctrines of demons.

 

[Me Myself]

I have nothing to fear since my life is in Christ the Savior and Creator of heaven and earth, but if you want to think I'm fearful it doesn't bother me. I''m not sure I understand your concern over rationality when you are the one telling me to let my mind go into the subjective and leave rational thinking and objectivity behind.

Whether or not the mysticism we are discussing is called "new age" or not the results are the same... a departure from the revealed truths of the scriptures into false teachings and doctrines of demons.

Because everyone knows that demons want us to be more generous, peaceful, loving and slow to anger

 

[InChrist]

Amen.

I'm sorry I was harsh on her. But I want to say here one more time. She concluded her post calling what I said as "Bad Fruit". This bad fruit is an encouragment to trust in the voice of God, not your own understanding. And furthermore, still, after 15 pages she has yet to acknowledge everything we are saying that meditation increases every single one of the fruits of the spirit listed, and subdues the fruits of the flesh! "By their FRUITS you shall know them." She equates good fruits with "proper doctrine". Not good behaviors.

I do not need to say anything more. It speaks volumes for itself. "An evil tree cannot bear good fruit". "A house divided against itself cannot stand". End of story. All the rest is works of the flesh to try to justify itself as 'righteous'. That is not spiritual life.

I am did not call what you were saying bad fruit. I am calling the deviation from the scriptures bad fruit. I do equate good fruit with behaviors, but good behaviors cannot exist without right doctrine.

 

[Debater Slayer]

***Mod Post***

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8. Preaching/Proselytizing
The forums are not to be used for converting others to your own faith, against any faith, or recruiting people to join one's party, institution, or cause. This includes placing links or copied material from elsewhere intended for this purpose. Posts of this nature will be edited or removed and are subject to moderation.

 

[Me Myself]

I am did not call what you were saying bad fruit. I am calling the deviation from the scriptures bad fruit. I do equate good fruit with behaviors, but good behaviors cannot exist without right doctrine.

Perfect! Then you understand meditation cannot be bad doctrine.

 

[Windwalker]

I have nothing to fear since my life is in Christ the Savior and Creator of heaven and earth, but if you want to think I'm fearful it doesn't bother me. I''m not sure I understand your concern over rationality when you are the one telling me to let my mind go into the subjective and leave rational thinking and objectivity behind.

Whether or not the mysticism we are discussing is called "new age" or not the results are the same... a departure from the revealed truths of the scriptures into false teachings and doctrines of demons.

But it isn't a departure. I am saying that one point of view, is not the only point of view. My only hope for anyone, is not to conform to how I see things, but to be free to find that truth that God has to say for them on their own path.

My personal experience in fundamentalism, which you very much appear to be part of, it that is straight-jackets that which is inside all of us, that 'still small voice' which urges us to look beyond to higher truth. That higher truth, is individual. You are an individual. I am an individual. God speaks to all of us as individuals, hoping, for us to come into a knowledge of ourselves beyond all these masks we put on in our separation from ourselves and God. It is to become who we truly are. Loved, embraced, and encouraged by God to become the flower of ourselves, free, in Spirit, in Truth, in the world as that Light divine. It is our inheritance.

Anything I say to you, to anyone else, is to find that. Don't stop at just the simple truths you learn, as truly important as those are for you, for me, for anyone, but keep growing in this. If I proselytize anything, it is to become who you are, in whatever allows you to become that. Just become, however you do that. And I say this to myself more than anyone else, allow others their own path.

 

[InChrist]

But it isn't a departure. I am saying that one point of view, is not the only point of view. My only hope for anyone, is not to conform to how I see things, but to be free to find that truth that God has to say for them on their own path.

My personal experience in fundamentalism, which you very much appear to be part of, it that is straight-jackets that which is inside all of us, that 'still small voice' which urges us to look beyond to higher truth. That higher truth, is individual. You are an individual. I am an individual. God speaks to all of us as individuals, hoping, for us to come into a knowledge of ourselves beyond all these masks we put on in our separation from ourselves and God. It is to become who we truly are. Loved, embraced, and encouraged by God to become the flower of ourselves, free, in Spirit, in Truth, in the world as that Light divine. It is our inheritance.

Anything I say to you, to anyone else, is to find that. Don't stop at just the simple truths you learn, as truly important as those are for you, for me, for anyone, but keep growing in this. If I proselytize anything, it is to become who you are, in whatever allows you to become that. Just become, however you do that. And I say this to myself more than anyone else, allow others their own path.

One thing you should realize is that I realize people have many points of view and people choose many various paths to feel spiritual. I'm not interested in telling you or anyone you can’t believe or do whatever you want to. If you want to meditate 24/7 that is your choice. But this subject is in the same faith section and I am speaking from the position of the faith presented in the pages of the biblical scriptures...the historic Christian faith. I am contending for the essential truths of the scriptures which I believe the practice of mysticism turns people away from to beliefs and ideas which are false teachings according to the scriptures and which are detrimental to one’s spiritual and eternal life... a departure from the biblical faith.

You have already stated that you believe one must get beyond the fundamentals of the Christian/biblical faith revealed in the scriptures and look higher because, to quote you ...”. God speaks to all of us as individuals, hoping, for us to come into a knowledge of ourselves beyond all these masks we put on in our separation from ourselves and God. It is to become who we truly are. Loved, embraced, and encouraged by God to become the flower of ourselves, free, in Spirit, in Truth in the world as that Light divine.” This sounds as new age as anything possibly could and it totally contradicts the message of the scriptures which says it is the knowledge of Christ (not ourselves) which makes us complete and free and gives us an eternal inheritance:

Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ. Phil. 3:8

For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:8

For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor. 4:6

And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrews 9:15

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.1 Peter 1:3-5

Again, you can believe whatever you like and practice whatever you like, so why are you here in this same faith section debating with me if we are not of the same faith? I notice you always have a quote of a Zen monk poet. Are you Buddhist? I believe the Bible is the basis for the Christian faith, why are you debating this with me if you don’t have faith in the Savior Jesus Christ as revealed in the scriptures?

 

[kiwimac]

Contemplative/Mystic Christianity is making a huge impact in the Christian church today. It is said that Christians need to rediscover the practices of the saints and so-called Christian or Catholic mystics from the past to gain a deeper knowledge and experience of God. The Desert Fathers are often pointed to as examples of those who achieved this deeper connection with God through their lives of solitude and various spiritual practices, including self-affliction. Christians and others are being encouraged to look to them for wisdom. But is this truly the wisdom of God?

What happens when we turn from the revealed word of God in the scriptures and seek other ways and means in an attempt to get closer to God? Does the real Creator God accept such practices? Many of the practices of the Desert Fathers were nothing new, but the same practices and techniques that have long been used by shamans, witchdoctors, medicine men, and other practitioners of magic and occultism to connect with the spirit world. These practices may have been Christianized and sanitized, but they are nonetheless the same techniques which are forbidden by the God of the Bible.

I am not interested in a debate; therefore, this is not in the debate section. What I am interested in is pointing out the dangers of Christians learning from and promoting ideas and practices of those who have departed from the biblical faith. I am also interested to know if there are any other believers in Christ who see this movement today as detrimental to the church and the lives of those who become involved with such practices. Is anyone else concerned about this?



“It should be apparent that mantra meditation or sacred word prayer qualifies as “vain repetition” and clearly fits an accurate description of the point Jesus was making. Yet in spite of this, trusted evangelical Christians have often pronounced that Christian mysticism is different from other forms of mysticism (such as Eastern or occult) because it is focused on Jesus Christ.

This logic may sound credible on the surface, but Christians must ask themselves a very simple and fundamental question: What really makes a practice Christian? The answer is obvious–does the New Testament sanction it? Hasn’t Christ taught us, through His Word, to pray in faith in His name and according to His will? Did He leave something out? Would Jesus hold out on His true followers? Never!

Understanding this truth, God has declared in His Word that He does not leave it up to earnest, yet sinful people, to reinvent their own Christianity. When Christians ignore God’s instructions in following Him they end up learning the way of the heathen. Israel did this countless times. It is just human nature.”

Excerpt:
From the Lighthouse Blog

Except that mysticism has been a part of Christianity almost from the beginning.

 

[methylatedghosts]

Except that mysticism has been a part of Christianity almost from the beginning.

Kiwimac! Have you truly returned? Is that really you?