“Christianized” mysticism

[InChrist]

What about these leads you to say that their own personal experiences take precedence over Scripture? Do you know of any of their sayings or visions that go against the message of Scripture?

I am lead to believe that those who participate in monastic lifestyles or mystical practices place their experience over scripture because from the accounts I have researched it is the isolation, the depravation, the experiences, the visions, and the messages or whatever one is practicing or seeing and hearing during those practices that is accepted as truth from God, and taught to others, without testing according to the scriptures, even when it contradicts the already revealed word of God in the scriptures. I will list some examples below:

Anthony the Great
He became a hermit, isolating himself for years inside a tomb. He communicated with the outside world through a crevice that enabled him to receive food and to offer spiritual advice. Supposedly, the devil, upset by his holiness, would come and beat him unmercifully.
This sounds very similar to the account of the man possessed by demons who lived in a tomb. I see no example from the scriptures or any reason that anyone who has Christ in their life and desires to live a godly life in His light would ever choose to live in a tomb as Anthony did.
And when He stepped out on the land, there met Him a certain man from the city who had demons for a long time. And he wore no clothes, nor did he live in a house but in the tombs. Luke 8:27

SaintJohn Climacus
The Ladder of Divine Ascent , written by Saint John Climacus initially for monastics, is an ascetical treatise on avoiding vice and practicing virtue so that at the end, salvation can be obtained. The ladder metaphor is used to describe how one may ascend into heaven by first renouncing the world and finally ending up in heaven with God. There are thirty chapters covering steps related to a particular vice or virtue.
This teaching or picture of one needing to climb a ladder or go through steps to reach heaven is diametrically opposed to the teaching of the scriptures that salvation and access to heaven is through the finished work of Christ alone. Jesus came to earth to save humanity because there is no possible way sinful humans can reach heaven or God by their own effort. But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7

[FONT=&quot]Julian of Norwich[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Through experiences Julian received, believed, and taught that all would be saved or universal salvation.[/FONT]Julian's revelation revealed that God is our mother as much as He is our father.Julian believed that it was inaccurate to speak of God's granting forgiveness for sins, because forgiving would mean that committing the sin was wrong. Julian preached that sin should be seen as a part of the learning process of life, not a malice that needed forgiveness. Julian wrote that God sees us as perfect and waits for the day when humans' souls mature, so that evil and sin will no longer hinder us. Julian believed that sin was necessary because it brings someone to self-knowledge, which leads to acceptance of the role of God in their life.
These ideas and teachings are opposed to the teachings of the scriptures concerning the lawlessness of sin, the way of salvation through Christ alone, and the fatherhood nature of God.

What evidence do you have that certain Christian practices were adapted from Pagan or non-Christian sources, rather than having evolved of their own accord, independently of its non-Christian counterparts?

I do not have any direct evidence; although there may be some I am not aware of. It is possible they may have come about independently or they may have been influenced by other mystical, pagan practices used around Egypt during the time period. Because there are such common similarities between the methods and experiences of the Christian and non-Christian mystics I believe it is most likely that both are inspired by Satan to take the faith and focus off the true Creator God and onto self-effort, as has been his trademark throughout history in all cultures and places.

How do you know that these various practices (i.e. hesychasm, repeated prayers) leads to the rejection of certain Scriptural truths?

[FONT=&quot]The problem I see that occurs when embracing these disciplines and this lifestyle oftentimes led the monks and leads others to see their righteousness and/or salvation bound intrinsically to their disciplines. Yet this is NOT what the scriptures teach, but say otherwise - righteousness is only through faith in Christ.

Today, at least with those who have incorporated the Jesus prayer and other mantra type prayers into their ecumenical, mysical, new age spiritual life, it is clear from their books and teachings[/FONT] that they reject the truths of the scripture.

Also, I'm going to note that Morton Kelsey (who talks about hesychasm and the Jesus Prayer) is NOT Orthodox and has NO right or authority to be teaching others the spiritual practices of our Church. The same goes for Agnes Sanford.

[/quote]

I’m sure you are right about Morton and Sanford's lack of authority according to your Church, but you should know that these and others, especially many today, seem to be taking the spiritual practices of your Church and instructing others with an added new age/panentheistic slant because they see a connection and similarities between the mystical practices of all religions. I believe this is occurring as a part of the globalization of all religions as the scriptures indicate happens at the end of the age.
( Contemplating The Alternative )

In one of your previous posts you said that:

I've never liked the idea of "imputed righteousness" because it basically states that we don't have to repent of our sins.

I don’t understand why you’ve never liked the idea of imputed righteousness. Is it not a clear biblical truth? But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works...Romans 4:5-6

How did you come to believe that imputed righteousness means we don’t have to repent of our sins? I don’t see that repentance and imputed righteousness are mutually exclusive, both are taught in the scriptures, are they not?

 

[Shiranui117]

Hi, InChrist! My apologies for being slow in getting back to you; this topic will require much attention from me in order to address it thoroughly.

I am lead to believe that those who participate in monastic lifestyles or mystical practices place their experience over scripture because from the accounts I have researched it is the isolation, the depravation, the experiences, the visions, and the messages or whatever one is practicing or seeing and hearing during those practices that is accepted as truth from God, and taught to others, without testing according to the scriptures, even when it contradicts the already revealed word of God in the scriptures. I will list some examples below:

On the contrary; the monastics take up their way of life because of Scripture, taking literally the Savior's command to sell all that we have, take up our cross and follow Him. From reading a part of the life of St. Antony below, you can see that his taking up of the monastic life is based entirely off the Gospel and teachings he heard in church, and no one in town chided him about it; in fact, they regarded him very highly for his discipline. (this will also address some of your concerns about St. Antony )

2. After the death of his father and mother he was left alone with one little sister: his age was about eighteen or twenty, and on him the care both of home and sister rested. Now it was not six months after the death of his parents, and going according to custom into the Lord's House, he communed with himself and reflected as he walked how the Apostles [4] left all and followed the Saviour; and how they in the Acts [5] sold their possessions and brought and laid them at the Apostles' feet for distribution to then eedy, and what and how great a hope was laid up for them in heaven. Pondering over these things he entered the church, and it happened the Gospel was being read, and he heard the Lord saying to the rich man [6], 'If thou wouldest be perfect, go and sell that thou hast and give to the poor; and come follow Me and thou shalt have treasure in heaven.' Antony, as though God had put him in mind of the Saints, and the passage had been read on his account, went out immediately from the church, and gave the possessions of his forefathers to the villagers--they were three hundred acres [7], productive and very fair --that they should be no more a clog upon himself and his sister [8]. And all the rest that was movable he sold, and having got together much money he gave it to the poor, reserving a little however for his sister's sake.

3. And again as he went into the church, hearing the Lord say in the Gospel [9], ' be not anxious for the morrow,' he could stay no longer, but went out and gave those things also to the poor. Having committed his sister to known and faithful virgins, and put her into a convent [10] to be brought up, he henceforth devoted himself outside his house to discipline [11], taking heed to himself and training himself with patience. . . . He worked, however. with his hands, having heard, 'he who is idle let him not eat [13],' and part he spent on bread and part he gave to the needy. And he was constant in prayer, knowing that a man ought to pray in secret unceasingly [14]. For he had given such heed to what was read that none of the things that were written fell from him to the ground, but he remembered all, and afterwards his memory served him for books.

. . .For the Lord was working with Antony--the Lord who for our sake took flesh [16] and gave the body victory over the devil, so that all who truly fight can say [17], ' not I but the grace of God which was with me.'

Anthony the Great
He became a hermit, isolating himself for years inside a tomb. He communicated with the outside world through a crevice that enabled him to receive food and to offer spiritual advice. Supposedly, the devil, upset by his holiness, would come and beat him unmercifully.
This sounds very similar to the account of the man possessed by demons who lived in a tomb. I see no example from the scriptures or any reason that anyone who has Christ in their life and desires to live a godly life in His light would ever choose to live in a tomb as Anthony did.

I'd like to see where this site gets its info on the Fathers from.

From OrthodoxWiki:

Although he held no titles or position, his holiness marked him as one whose wisdom commanded respect. When the Synod of Nicea was convened, he was invited to participate. His eloquent defense of the Orthodox doctrine concerning the person of Jesus Christ was instrumental in weakening the position of Arianism. His witness led to the eventual and complete elimination of Arianism.
He instructed his followers to bury his body in an unmarked, secret grave, lest his body become an object of veneration. The monastic rules of Saint Anthony, the "patriarch" of monastic life, have served as the basis for countless monasteries.

OrthodoxWiki linked me to a site which has the full life story of St. Antony the Great, and I can assure you that the site you're using misrepresents this man's very faithful, inspiring story.

Internet History Sourcebooks (skip all the boring intro stuff by hitting CTRL+F and copypasting "Athanasius: LIFE OF ANTONY")

The part where Antony lived in a tomb was not long; judging by the story, it seems he was in there at least for a few days, at most for a few years. It was far from being the main point of the story. He left that place, after God let him struggle with demons, while Antony ceaselessly cried out to God for help and strength to stand the battles. Afterwards he found an old fortress in the desert, cleaned it up and restored the entrance, and people would occasionally come by to check up on him.

14. And so for nearly twenty years he continued training himself in solitude, never going forth, and but seldom seen by any. After this when many were eager and wishful to imitate his discipline, and his acquaintances came and began to cast down and wrench off the door by force, Antony, as from a shrine, came forth initiated in the mysteries and filled with the Spirit of God. Then for the first time he was seen outside the fort by those who came to see him. And they, when they saw him, wondered at the sight, for he had the same habit of body as before, and was neither fat, like a man without exercise, nor lean from fasting and striving with the demons, but he was just the same as they had known him before his retirement, And again his soul was free from blemish, for it was neither contracted as if by grief, nor relaxed by pleasure, nor possessed by laughter or dejection, for he was not troubled when he beheld the crowd, nor overjoyed at being saluted by so many. But he was altogether even as being guided by reason, and abiding in a natural state. Through him the Lord healed the bodily ailments of many present, and cleansed others from evil spirits. And He gave grace to Antony in speaking, so that he consoled many that were sorrowful, and set those at variance at one, exhorting all to prefer the love of Christ before all that is in the world. And while he exhorted and advised them to remember the good things to come, and the loving-kindness of God towards us, 'Who spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all [7],' he persuaded many to embrace the solitary life. . . .
15. . . .And having returned to his ceil, he applied himself to the same noble and valiant exercises; and by frequent conversation he increased the eagerness of those already monks, stirred up in most of the rest the love of the discipline, and speedily by the attraction of his words. cells multiplied, and he directed them all as a father.

And then Antony went on to teach many people, giving spiritual counsel to monks and people in the world alike, exhorting them to live faithful lives, always referring back to the Scriptures. You can read more in the link I provided; he was far from being a shut-in his entire life who didn't let the light of Christ shine.

(cont)

 

[Shiranui117]

(cont)

SaintJohn Climacus
The Ladder of Divine Ascent , written by Saint John Climacus initially for monastics, is an ascetical treatise on avoiding vice and practicing virtue so that at the end, salvation can be obtained. The ladder metaphor is used to describe how one may ascend into heaven by first renouncing the world and finally ending up in heaven with God. There are thirty chapters covering steps related to a particular vice or virtue.
This teaching or picture of one needing to climb a ladder or go through steps to reach heaven is diametrically opposed to the teaching of the scriptures that salvation and access to heaven is through the finished work of Christ alone. Jesus came to earth to save humanity because there is no possible way sinful humans can reach heaven or God by their own effort.

Having read The Ladder of Divine Ascent the entire way through, and myself personally owning a copy of the book, I can assure you that St. John does not teach that we can save ourselves. He wrote this book as a help to novices and monks, showing them how to live the monastic life in Christ. If you want, next post I can show you more of what he wrote.

The Scriptures teach that we are not saved by our own works, but they also teach that we must work out our salvation "with fear and trembling," and we most certainly are called to act on our faith and live it out.

[FONT="]Julian of Norwich[/FONT]

I'm not familiar with this woman. (I didn't even know that she was a woman before I looked her up on Wikipedia! )

Speaking of Christ as both father and mother to us does, admittedly, sound very reminiscent of Hindu language. IDK about her, so I'll leave her be.

I do not have any direct evidence; although there may be some I am not aware of. Because there are such common similarities between the methods and experiences of the Christian and non-Christian mystics I believe it is most likely that both are inspired by Satan to take the faith and focus off the true Creator God and onto self-effort, as has been his trademark throughout history in all cultures and places.

Not at all; the point of monastic excercises is to put God above all else, focusing completely on Him. There may be superficial, surface-level similarities, but the focus and objective is completely different between the Christian and non-Christian practices. I can get into this a bit later.

[FONT="]

The problem I see that occurs when embracing these disciplines and this lifestyle oftentimes led the monks and leads others to see their righteousness and/or salvation bound intrinsically to their disciplines. Yet this is NOT what the scriptures teach, but say otherwise - righteousness is only through faith in Christ.

[/FONT]And the Desert Fathers would agree with you; the most dangerous thing to a hermit or a monk is thinking that he himself has achieved anything by himself, and not by God's grace. Pride and self-deceit are very strongly spoken against in all monastic works. Like the Scripture quote from the life of St. Antony, "Not I but the grace of God which was with me."
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT="]Today, at least with those who have incorporated the Jesus prayer and other mantra type prayers into their ecumenical, mysical, new age spiritual life, it is clear from their books and teachings[/FONT] that they reject the truths of the scripture.

Ugh, don't even get me started on New Age. That stuff ain't Christian, and has no business being in Christianity.

I’m sure you are right about Morton and Sanford's lack of authority according to your Church, but you should know that these and others, especially many today, seem to be taking the spiritual practices of your Church and instructing others with an added new age/panentheistic slant because they see a connection and similarities between the mystical practices of all religions. I believe this is occurring as a part of the globalization of all religions as the scriptures indicate happens at the end of the age.

Which is very unfortunate, and may God have mercy on them.

( Contemplating The Alternative )

In one of your previous posts you said that:
I don’t understand why you’ve never liked the idea of imputed righteousness. Is it not a clear biblical truth?

How did you come to believe that imputed righteousness means we don’t have to repent of our sins? I don’t see that repentance and imputed righteousness are mutually exclusive, both are taught in the scriptures, are they not?

I suppose the version of "imputed righteousness" I've come across means that God doesn't actually MAKE us righteous, or even put His righteousness on us ("infused righteousness," and apparently also the more "orthodox" form of imputed righteousness), but as I've heard it from a non-denominational group on campus, God takes our faithlessness and views it as faithfulness, takes our wickedness and views it as righteousness, takes our lust and views it as chastity, etc. "Imputed righteousness" as it's often taught amounts to little else than God plugging His ears, squeezing His eyes shut and shouting "LALALALALA YOU'RE RIGHTEOUS." The implications of this ultimately being that we don't have to repent as long as God turns a blind eye to us.

After doing a bit of digging, I can see that the "rose-colored glasses" thing is merely a caricacture of imputed righteousness.

 

[InChrist]

(cont)

Having read The Ladder of Divine Ascent the entire way through, and myself personally owning a copy of the book, I can assure you that St. John does not teach that we can save ourselves. He wrote this book as a help to novices and monks, showing them how to live the monastic life in Christ. If you want, next post I can show you more of what he wrote.

Hello Shirunu117
Thank you for your thoughts and viewpoint. I do appreciate hearing your perspective and I believe I can understand it to a certain degree, but I do think we may have to agree to disagree. I am very thankful that you also see the unbiblical nature of new age philosophies. Yet, I still see what I believe are dangers and deviation from the scriptures associated with mysticism “Christian” or otherwise. Having been raised Catholic and also having been involved with various new age and esoteric practices prior to being saved and knowing Christ I feel there is a common thread with runs through any practice which is based on human effort for sanctification instead of the work of Christ alone. But I don’t feel I should continue to discuss with you to the point of trying win an argument or convince you to agree with me.

Although, I wouldn’t mind asking you a few questions, just to further understand your perspective a little more, if that is okay.

Would you say the link to the website below is accurate concerning The Ladder of Divine Ascent?

The Ladder of Divine Ascent - OrthodoxWiki



I

suppose the version of "imputed righteousness" I've come across means that God doesn't actually MAKE us righteous, or even put His righteousness on us ("infused righteousness," and apparently also the more "orthodox" form of imputed righteousness), but as I've heard it from a non-denominational group on campus, God takes our faithlessness and views it as faithfulness, takes our wickedness and views it as righteousness, takes our lust and views it as chastity, etc. "Imputed righteousness" as it's often taught amounts to little else than God plugging His ears, squeezing His eyes shut and shouting "LALALALALA YOU'RE RIGHTEOUS." The implications of this ultimately being that we don't have to repent as long as God turns a blind eye to us.

After doing a bit of digging, I can see that the "rose-colored glasses" thing is merely a caricacture of imputed righteousness.

[/quote]

I would agree that the idea of “imputed righteousness” you have described above is not found in the scriptures. I think another name for this may be sloppy grace, where one claims to be a forgiven Christian yet continues to live in sin.

But when I say “imputed righteousness” I mean as the bible teaches that the righteousness of Christ is applied to the person who trusts in Jesus Christ as their Savior and whose life is changed by Him. Therefore, it is by His perfect righteousness believers are made righteous before God

“By having the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, we can be perfect, as God is perfect. It is not, therefore, our perfection, but His. When God looks at the Christian, He sees the holiness, perfection, and righteousness of Christ. Therefore, we can say with confidence “I am perfect, as God is perfect.”

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/imputed-righteousness.html#ixzz2QnOOjZTt

 

[Shiranui117]

Hello Shirunu117
Thank you for your thoughts and viewpoint. I do appreciate hearing your perspective and I believe I can understand it to a certain degree, but I do think we may have to agree to disagree. I am very thankful that you also see the unbiblical nature of new age philosophies. Yet, I still see what I believe are dangers and deviation from the scriptures associated with mysticism “Christian” or otherwise. Having been raised Catholic and also having been involved with various new age and esoteric practices prior to being saved and knowing Christ I feel there is a common thread with runs through any practice which is based on human effort for sanctification instead of the work of Christ alone. But I don’t feel I should continue to discuss with you to the point of trying win an argument or convince you to agree with me.

Although, I wouldn’t mind asking you a few questions, just to further understand your perspective a little more, if that is okay.

Would you say the link to the website below is accurate concerning The Ladder of Divine Ascent?

The Ladder of Divine Ascent - OrthodoxWiki

Yes, though I would lay special emphasis on where it says "The aim of the treatise is to be a guide for practicing a life completely and wholly devoted to God."

Even though the text is more or less about how to live a holy life that will (hopefully) end up with us being saved, it still must be stressed that living the holy life does not in and of itself save us, but rather opens us up ever more to the grace of God, so that we don't turn away from Him and reject His salvation, but rather allow His grace to work within us, sanctifying us and restoring our corruption, straightening out the distorted image of God within us.

(By the way, feel free to poke around elsewhere on OrthodoxWiki and ask me any questions you may have about any article... )

Yet, I still see what I believe are dangers and deviation from the scriptures associated with mysticism “Christian” or otherwise. Having been raised Catholic and also having been involved with various new age and esoteric practices prior to being saved and knowing Christ I feel there is a common thread with runs through any practice which is based on human effort for sanctification instead of the work of Christ alone.

Could you comment more specifically about what you believe the dangers of Christian "mysticism" to be, and your upbringing as a Catholic, and the rest of your spiritual journey? I'm curious to hear about your experiences.

And yes, there is most certainly a common thread among practices based on human effort for our own salvation.

I would agree that the idea of “imputed righteousness” you have described above is not found in the scriptures. I think another name for this may be sloppy grace, where one claims to be a forgiven Christian yet continues to live in sin.

But when I say “imputed righteousness” I mean as the bible teaches that the righteousness of Christ is applied to the person who trusts in Jesus Christ as their Savior and whose life is changed by Him. Therefore, it is by His perfect righteousness believers are made righteous before God

“By having the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, we can be perfect, as God is perfect. It is not, therefore, our perfection, but His. When God looks at the Christian, He sees the holiness, perfection, and righteousness of Christ. Therefore, we can say with confidence “I am perfect, as God is perfect.”

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/imputed-righteousness.html#ixzz2QnOOjZTt

I can more or less agree with this (aside from, of course, the "sin debt" business )

Enjoying this conversation so far; hopefully we're both learning something! Peace and God bless!

 

[Open_Minded]

InChrist - Just bumping these questions to the top for you.

InChrist - You came back and replied where you could still cling to your Bible verses. But .. you missed the human questions I asked of you.

Specifically:

I'm waiting for an answer to those questions. I would appreciate a human answer, one that focuses on your own feelings - rather than one that focuses on what you perceive that Bible verses are telling you to feel. There is a difference..

And while you're answering those questions, it would be wonderful if you would also address the personal story of Windwalker.

Your perception of the "plain words" on the pages of the Bible leads to a theology like Windwalker spoke of above. How do you FEEL about a theology that would condemn those YOU love to the eternal torment of hell, simply because they are not "born again".

I really am interested in your own personal feelings about this - not what you feel the Bible is telling you to say - but what you feel yourself.

 

[InChrist]

Yes, though I would lay special emphasis on where it says "The aim of the treatise is to be a guide for practicing a life completely and wholly devoted to God."

Even though the text is more or less about how to live a holy life that will (hopefully) end up with us being saved, it still must be stressed that living the holy life does not in and of itself save us, but rather opens us up ever more to the grace of God, so that we don't turn away from Him and reject His salvation, but rather allow His grace to work within us, sanctifying us and restoring our corruption, straightening out the distorted image of God within us.

May I ask you a couple more questions?
How do you believe a person is saved? Do you believe someone can know they are saved in the present or must they wait to find out after they die?

(By the way, feel free to poke around elsewhere on OrthodoxWiki and ask me any questions you may have about any article... )


Could you comment more specifically about what you believe the dangers of Christian "mysticism" to be, and your upbringing as a Catholic, and the rest of your spiritual journey? I'm curious to hear about your experiences.

I will try to respond to this at my next opportunity.

And yes, there is most certainly a common thread among practices based on human effort for our own salvation.

I can more or less agree with this (aside from, of course, the "sin debt" business )

Enjoying this conversation so far; hopefully we're both learning something! Peace and God bless!

[/quote]

What do you mean when you say you don’t agree with the “sin debt business”?

Thanks, I'm enjoying the conversation, too. God Bless.

 

[InChrist]

InChrist - Just bumping these questions to the top for you.

Hello Open Minded,

I'm on my out for the day. I'll try to answers your questions at my next opportunity.

 

[Open_Minded]

Hello Open Minded,

I'm on my out for the day. I'll try to answers your questions at my next opportunity.

Thank you inChrist - I appreciate that.

 

[Shiranui117]

May I ask you a couple more questions?
How do you believe a person is saved?

I believe, and AFAIK this is the teaching of the Orthodox Church as well, that salvation is given to us as a free gift of God; not because we do anything to deserve it (and such a thing is indeed impossible), but because He loves us and wills all mankind to be saved. We cannot earn our salvation, nor do we save ourselves; without God's grace, we cannot be saved.

I also believe that we must cooperate with God's grace to be saved, and accept His gift of salvation, and not reject it. God is the Healer and Physician of our souls, and the birth, life, death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, with the grace of the Father and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, are the medicines which heal our souls of the disease of sin. There are different ways that God has deemed fit to administer these medicines, primarily through the Sacraments, the studying of Scripture and the rest of the Apostolic Tradition, and the righteous life to which He calls us.

We are given these medicines freely as a gift, but we ourselves must obey the treatment regiments that God gives; these regiments consist of repentance of our sins and turning towards God, and taking the medicine which He has given us, in whatever way He has deemed fit to give it to us. If we don't take the medicine and go through the rehab that God prescribed for us, we will not be healed. But if we cooperate with God our Physician and Savior, then we will make progress in healing, until we have finally been made whole, becoming ever more like Him.

You can read more about this concept here; I hope the medical analogy I used made sense!

Do you believe someone can know they are saved in the present or must they wait to find out after they die?

We can know that we have been saved at baptism, we can know that we are being saved at the present moment, but knowing how we will exactly be judged is another matter, and I believe that only a special few will be able to say with any certainty how they will be judged.

I will try to respond to this at my next opportunity.

Please do; I would be very interested to hear what you've experienced and concluded

What do you mean when you say you don’t agree with the “sin debt business”?

Namely, I reject penal substitution as being a new view and not one held by early Christians (as well as being IMHO an un-Biblical view) and I'm still wary of the satisfaction theory (though I think I can agree with the way that the Catholics have interpreted the latter, as they view it as more of a legal-sounding version of the Recapitulation theory)

 

[InChrist]

InChrist - Just bumping these questions to the top for you.

I'm waiting for an answer to those questions. I would appreciate a human answer, one that focuses on your own feelings - rather than one that focuses on what you perceive that Bible verses are telling you to feel. There is a difference..

Actually, concerning the biblical gospel of salvation in Christ alone, I didn’t feel very good about it especially since I am also one who was condemned apart from Christ. But I came to the point of realization that the words of the Bible were personally true concerning my sinful, self-centered state. I realized that I was so often opposed to God in my thoughts and actions and was in bondage to Satan. My own efforts to be good and spiritual were not making a permanent change on the inside. I realized I did need a Savior as the scriptures say. So in spite of my feelings I chose to believe God’s assessment of human nature and my reality and trusted Jesus Christ to forgive me, save me, and give me eternal life. The feelings of lasting peace and real joy have followed as I lined my thoughts up in agreement with God’s Word.

One of the points I am attempting to make in this thread related to mysticism is that human feelings, as important as they are, are not a completely reliable authority concerning truth. Human feelings can be self-centered, deceitful and manipulated in the spiritual realm by malevolent beings more powerful than humans. I believe the Bible is the objective standard given by God by which to test our feelings and spiritual experiences, as opposed to mysticism which is subjective and may be based on deceptive feelings and experiences. I believe this very strongly from seeing the accuracy of biblical evaluation of my own history of sinful behaviors, the deceptions I believed, and then the awesome way in which God delivered me from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of His beloved Son.

Do you also believe that if a baby dies in infancy his/her mother will not know him/her in heaven? If you do – how deeply sad that is. And how about Granny’s departed husband? How could she ever truly be at peace in heaven if her husband and child were not with her simply because they were not “born again”??? Do you honestly believe that lovers for life would be separated in eternity if one were not “born again”????

I believe that all infants and young children who die go directly to the Presence of God in heaven. So anyone who desires to spend eternity with Jesus Christ and is saved by Him will again see their lost child. If someone’s adult loved one does not place their faith in the Savior Jesus Christ and therefore do not end up with God forever then I think it is very sad indeed. But I see no reason to alter the truth of the gospel because doing so would not improve the situation for anyone. God has promised to wipe away all tears in the eternal state.

And while you're answering those questions, it would be wonderful if you would also address the personal story of Windwalker.

Your perception of the "plain words" on the pages of the Bible leads to a theology like Windwalker spoke of above. How do you FEEL about a theology that would condemn those YOU love to the eternal torment of hell, simply because they are not "born again".

I really am interested in your own personal feelings about this - not what you feel the Bible is telling you to say - but what you feel yourself.

My feelings concerning the story you posted and that of Windwalker is that when it comes to something as important as one’s eternal destiny...truth is more important than feelings. Love does not speak lies just to make someone feel good or give false hope. I don’t know how the person in the story or Windwalker actually spoke to their family members, whether harshly or in self-righteousness, but the truth can and needs to be spoken with an attitude of love and humility.


This thread is about what is called “Christian’ mysticism. I did not respond earlier to your questions and the story you posted because it seems as if you were purposely throwing out a red herring and trying to divert the subject from mysticism to the subject of regeneration or being born-again. Besides, changing the subject you seem to want use someone’s personal, emotionally charged story as a way to discredit the biblical teaching of salvation in Jesus Christ. I have limited time right now, so I had to just skip your deviation from the topic. But since you have brought it up again I am responding and answering your questions. Although I won’t continue to discuss being born-again or salvation outside of Christ. If you want to debate that issue you may start a thread about it. For me it is a foundational truth of the Christian faith and of my life. I’m not interested in debating it at this time. I do wonder though why you use “Christian” in your title when you deny the Christian message which has been passed on since the apostles that Jesus Christ is the Savior. Wouldn't just "Mysticism" be more accurate?

 

[InChrist]

I believe, and AFAIK this is the teaching of the Orthodox Church as well, that salvation is given to us as a free gift of God; not because we do anything to deserve it (and such a thing is indeed impossible), but because He loves us and wills all mankind to be saved. We cannot earn our salvation, nor do we save ourselves; without God's grace, we cannot be saved.

I also believe that we must cooperate with God's grace to be saved, and accept His gift of salvation, and not reject it. God is the Healer and Physician of our souls, and the birth, life, death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, with the grace of the Father and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, are the medicines which heal our souls of the disease of sin. There are different ways that God has deemed fit to administer these medicines, primarily through the Sacraments, the studying of Scripture and the rest of the Apostolic Tradition, and the righteous life to which He calls us.

We are given these medicines freely as a gift, but we ourselves must obey the treatment regiments that God gives; these regiments consist of repentance of our sins and turning towards God, and taking the medicine which He has given us, in whatever way He has deemed fit to give it to us. If we don't take the medicine and go through the rehab that God prescribed for us, we will not be healed. But if we cooperate with God our Physician and Savior, then we will make progress in healing, until we have finally been made whole, becoming ever more like Him.

You can read more about this concept here; I hope the medical analogy I used made sense!

Thank you for your thoughts, the medical analogy and the link.

We can know that we have been saved at baptism, we can know that we are being saved at the present moment, but knowing how we will exactly be judged is another matter, and I believe that only a special few will be able to say with any certainty how they will be judged.

I was not saved at baptism, but I was saved later and now know I have eternal life (John 10:29; 1 John 5:13). I will stand before the judgment seat of Christ for the things I have done in this life to receive rewards or not, but I have no fear concerning whether I have salvation and eternal life, nor will I stand at the Great White Throne judgment of unbelievers.

Please do; I would be very interested to hear what you've experienced and concluded

I was baptized into the Catholic Church as an infant. From then on I was taken to mass each week and on all holy days. I attended catechism classes, confession, and made my first Holy Communion and later my Confirmation. Through all my years in the Catholic Church I can honestly say I was never encouraged to read the Bible at all and I never heard the true gospel of salvation in Christ alone. The focus was always on the Church as the true means of being made right with God, not Jesus as the only mediator. I knew about Christ, but I did not know Him. I also know that all during this time I was not saved because I was clearly delivered from the kingdom of darkness, forgiven and saved by Jesus Christ at a later specific time of my life,

With no foundation in Christ or the scriptures it was easy to be tossed about and accept various winds of doctrine and false teachings that “sound good”, which I was. Whether it was new age, metaphysical, Eastern or other religious/spiritual paths they were all ways which made me feel like I was doing something good and spiritual, but which denied and/or made additions to the sufficiency of Christ alone to reach God. I believe this is the case with all religious practices which include anything other than Christ alone as the means to be reconciled and connect with God. This is the same danger I see with mysticism.

Namely, I reject penal substitution as being a new view and not one held by early Christians (as well as being IMHO an un-Biblical view) and I'm still wary of the satisfaction theory (though I think I can agree with the way that the Catholics have interpreted the latter, as they view it as more of a legal-sounding version of the Recapitulation theory)

[/quote]

So in your view, what is the significance of the cross? Why did Jesus come to earth and die paying for the sins of the world as the scriptures teach?

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28

...who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed. 1 Peter 2:24

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit 1 Peter 3:18

For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures...1 Corinthians 15:3-4

...who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, Galatians 1:4

 

[Shiranui117]

Thank you for your thoughts, the medical analogy and the link.

I was not saved at baptism, but I was saved later and now know I have eternal life (John 10:29; 1 John 5:13). I will stand before the judgment seat of Christ for the things I have done in this life to receive rewards or not, but I have no fear concerning whether I have salvation and eternal life, nor will I stand at the Great White Throne judgment of unbelievers.

I was baptized into the Catholic Church as an infant. From then on I was taken to mass each week and on all holy days. I attended catechism classes, confession, and made my first Holy Communion and later my Confirmation. Through all my years in the Catholic Church I can honestly say I was never encouraged to read the Bible at all and I never heard the true gospel of salvation in Christ alone. The focus was always on the Church as the true means of being made right with God, not Jesus as the only mediator. I knew about Christ, but I did not know Him. I also know that all during this time I was not saved because I was clearly delivered from the kingdom of darkness, forgiven and saved by Jesus Christ at a later specific time of my life,

I will say that the Catholic Church seems to have been in a bad way ever since Vatican II, spiritually-speaking. I can sympathize with what you've said in that sense.

With no foundation in Christ or the scriptures it was easy to be tossed about and accept various winds of doctrine and false teachings that “sound good”, which I was. Whether it was new age, metaphysical, Eastern or other religious/spiritual paths they were all ways which made me feel like I was doing something good and spiritual, but which denied and/or made additions to the sufficiency of Christ alone to reach God. I believe this is the case with all religious practices which include anything other than Christ alone as the means to be reconciled and connect with God. This is the same danger I see with mysticism.

Yes, without a clear focus within Christian mysticism, it is easy to fall into delusion, and lose sight of "Not I, but the grace of God in me. Not I, but Christ within me. Not I, but the Holy Spirit within my heart."

So in your view, what is the significance of the cross? Why did Jesus come to earth and die paying for the sins of the world as the scriptures teach?

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28

...who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed. 1 Peter 2:24

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit 1 Peter 3:18

For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures...1 Corinthians 15:3-4

...who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, Galatians 1:4

Jesus died on the Cross to fully share in our human experience--to experience the burden of our sins, to experience being abandoned, mocked, scorned, hated, hurt and betrayed. He experienced one of the most horrifically painful deaths imaginable. He, being God the Son Himself, experienced separation from God--and ultimately death.

Through all this, he accepted it all willingly, out of love for us. He forgave everyone their sins against Him, and prayed that the Father may do likewise. In doing so, He redeemed that suffering through His love, and reconciled it to His Divinity. Having become all that we are as humans, and experienced all that we do as fallen creatures separated from God Who is the Source of all life and love, He reconciled our broken humanity to His perfect and whole divinity. Having taken on the burden of all our sins, and burning up that burden like how a coal burns up sawdust that falls onto it, so Jesus did away with sin on the Cross, while experiencing the fullness of its weight on us--this is what is meant when the Scripture says that Christ became sin for us. He up a bridge between Heaven and earth, between God and man--with the Cross as that bridge. By dying, Jesus destroyed the bonds of sin and death--for how can death hold He Who is the Life of the world? How can corruption take prisoner He Who is Incorrupt? When He destroyed the bonds of sin and death, He loosened their grip over all of us. Now, just as Jesus shared in our death, we could share in His Resurrection--in doing so, just as He shared in our human life and became one of us, so now we can share in Christ's Divine Life and become ever more like Him--the end goal of theosis.

His death on the Cross is a demonstration of supreme love, it is our reconciliation to God, the cleansing of our sins, the union of our humanity with Christ's Divinity, and it is our death being conquered by Christ's Life.

 

[Renji]

Contemplative/Mystic Christianity is making a huge impact in the Christian church today. It is said that Christians need to rediscover the practices of the saints and so-called Christian or Catholic mystics from the past to gain a deeper knowledge and experience of God. The Desert Fathers are often pointed to as examples of those who achieved this deeper connection with God through their lives of solitude and various spiritual practices, including self-affliction. Christians and others are being encouraged to look to them for wisdom. But is this truly the wisdom of God?

What happens when we turn from the revealed word of God in the scriptures and seek other ways and means in an attempt to get closer to God? Does the real Creator God accept such practices? Many of the practices of the Desert Fathers were nothing new, but the same practices and techniques that have long been used by shamans, witchdoctors, medicine men, and other practitioners of magic and occultism to connect with the spirit world. These practices may have been Christianized and sanitized, but they are nonetheless the same techniques which are forbidden by the God of the Bible.

I am not interested in a debate; therefore, this is not in the debate section. What I am interested in is pointing out the dangers of Christians learning from and promoting ideas and practices of those who have departed from the biblical faith. I am also interested to know if there are any other believers in Christ who see this movement today as detrimental to the church and the lives of those who become involved with such practices. Is anyone else concerned about this?



“It should be apparent that mantra meditation or sacred word prayer qualifies as “vain repetition” and clearly fits an accurate description of the point Jesus was making. Yet in spite of this, trusted evangelical Christians have often pronounced that Christian mysticism is different from other forms of mysticism (such as Eastern or occult) because it is focused on Jesus Christ.

This logic may sound credible on the surface, but Christians must ask themselves a very simple and fundamental question: What really makes a practice Christian? The answer is obvious–does the New Testament sanction it? Hasn’t Christ taught us, through His Word, to pray in faith in His name and according to His will? Did He leave something out? Would Jesus hold out on His true followers? Never!

Understanding this truth, God has declared in His Word that He does not leave it up to earnest, yet sinful people, to reinvent their own Christianity. When Christians ignore God’s instructions in following Him they end up learning the way of the heathen. Israel did this countless times. It is just human nature.”

Excerpt:
From the Lighthouse Blog

I'm not really a Christian (or a Catholic) mystic in any sense so I think I'm not the type who can really answer this, but I can't just clench my booty here, since I think this is interesting topic to talk to. First, the difference of Christian mysticism to other forms of mysticism is the 'method'. The 'method' of Christian mysticism is the use of physical (say, through 'mouting' out prayers, singing or focusing oneself for example on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus,silent contemplation,etc) faculties, in contrary to other practices of mysticism where one 'voids' the self and put the physical faculties to 'sleep' ( emptying one's mind, like those we see in Eastern types of meditation). Another is prayer. Christian 'mystics' pray so diligently/eagerly in order to form deeper union with God, hence, they arrive to highly 'spiritual' life, in contrary to other forms of mysticism where the person meditates (for example) to transcend to higher form of consciousness (I don't know how that works or what's this 'consciousness' they're talking about since I'm not a practitioner myself). Also, some mystics practices mysticism in order to have some sort of (occult) 'power' (or to strengthen it), unlike in Christian mysticism where the focus is strengthening relationship with God, and not acquiring such power/knowledge. Then again, such information would vary depending on who you're asking to.

 

[Me Myself]

Meditation makes people more christlike.

Jesus said we ought to be more christlike.

Jesus said that we should judge by the fruits, and the fruits of meditation are good, hence, there should be no doubt that meditation is good.

 

[Renji]

Meditation makes people more christlike.

Jesus said we ought to be more christlike.

Jesus said that we should judge by the fruits, and the fruits of meditation are good, hence, there should be no doubt that meditation is good.

Depends on what type of 'meditation' we're talking about in here. that's it, no more no less.

And yeah, can't we be more Christlike by loving God above all things and loving our neighbor as we love ourselves? Can't see anything that can make us more (and real) Christlike by doing that.

 

[Me Myself]

Depends on what type of 'meditation' we're talking about in here. that's it, no more no less.

And yeah, can't we be more Christlike by loving God above all things and loving our neighbor as we love ourselves? Can't see anything that can make us more (and real) Christlike by doing that.

Any form of meditation that helps you become more compassionate, peaceful and happy.

Including focusing on the breath for 15 minutes.

 

[Renji]

Any form of meditation that helps you become more compassionate, peaceful and happy.

Including focusing on the breath for 15 minutes.

Question is, is that scriptural or is even found in any 'traditions' of any Christian Churches? We're talking about Christian mysticism in here right?

 

[Me Myself]

Question is, is that scriptural or is even found in any 'traditions' of any Christian Churches? We're talking about Christian mysticism in here right?

It is scriptural than anything that gives good fruits is good.

So yes, it is scriptural that such meditation is christian.

 

[Renji]

It is scriptural than anything that gives good fruits is good.

So yes, it is scriptural that such meditation is christian.

Where? So what kind of 'meditation' are we talking about in here?

But then, I will not push any further since I know that your beliefs are....... I'll stop right there *seals fingers, prevents from keyboard typing*