“Christianized” mysticism

[Me Myself]

I believe it is better to trust the revealed truths of God's word and test the spirits (Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.1 John 4;1) by God's standards, rather than depend on one's subjective, experiential feelings and be deceived by doctrines of demons ( Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons...1 Timothy 4:1)

Jesus gave clear ways of judging : by the fruits.

Meditation in silence, or focus in breathing makes most people more compassionate, happy and peacefull.

Thus, according to Jesus and the fruits test, we know that meditation is good.

 

[Windwalker]

Jesus gave clear ways of judging : by the fruits.

Meditation in silence, or focus in breathing makes most people more compassionate, happy and peacefull.

Thus, according to Jesus and the fruits test, we know that meditation is good.

So succinct. So perfect. Yes. Agree.

 

[Shiranui117]

It may be that you as an individual agree feelings and experiences should be tested by the scriptures, but I think there are many who believe their own personal experiences take priority.

And who would these "many" be? What sorts of people are they? Are they people who practice Christian mysticism and spirituality, or some other kind of people? Or a mix? How would you describe these people? I just want to have a better sense of who you're talking about here.

 

[InChrist]

Jesus gave clear ways of judging : by the fruits.

Meditation in silence, or focus in breathing makes most people more compassionate, happy and peacefull.

Thus, according to Jesus and the fruits test, we know that meditation is good.

Thank you for your thoughts. I believe it is Jesus Christ alone, not the practice of meditation or silence, which produces the fruit Jesus was referring to and here are the lists of the fruits, bad and good, by which to test:

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. Galatians 5;19-23



Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. Ephesians 1:1-10

 

[Me Myself]

Thank you for your thoughts. I believe it is Jesus Christ alone, not the practice of meditation or silence, which produces the fruit Jesus was referring to and here are the lists of the fruits, bad and good, by which to test:

Meditation helps us be more compassionnate in general, more generous and less prone to anger, and more meek. Most of the things mentioned there as goods of the spirit come in bunches after meditation, and this has been measured objectively already in various test groups.

This are good fruits Jesus spoke for. Hence, we know meditation gives good fruits.

Hence we know meditation help us be more christlike.

 

[SageTree]

It may be that you as an individual agree feelings and experiences should be tested by the scriptures, but I think there are many who believe their own personal experiences take priority.

And who would these "many" be? What sorts of people are they? Are they people who practice Christian mysticism and spirituality, or some other kind of people? Or a mix? How would you describe these people? I just want to have a better sense of who you're talking about here.

I too am interested in hearing this reply.



I'll agree, InChrist.

There are these people you speak of out there in all faith traditions.

My concern here is to not banter about straw-people who do/not practice in the way you speak of.

The common root of the issue which you speak is called ego.
No one has the corner on that market in the world.
How ego screws up things is a topic for another discussion perhaps.

Can we just talk about our self and not 'them' out there....?

I'm enjoying the conversation very much everyone.

Thank you all.

:namaste
SageTree

 

[InChrist]

And who would these "many" be? What sorts of people are they? Are they people who practice Christian mysticism and spirituality, or some other kind of people? Or a mix? How would you describe these people? I just want to have a better sense of who you're talking about here.

Some examples from the past:

Lighthouse Trails Research Project - Exposing Contemplative Spirituality


Some more recent examples:

Dallas Willard
Rob Bell
Tony Compolo
Brian McLaren
Sue Monk Kidd
Richard Foster
Dan Kimball
Henri Nouwen

 

[InChrist]

"I believe that Scripture alone determines the valid means of coming to God. The Scripture reveals one obvious restriction: “Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me’” (John 14:6). The Bible not only reveals the only way to salvation, but it also provides the means of grace for living the Christian life. God does not leave this up to man’s ingenuity. He has not left us to sift through the religious practices of the cultures of the world in order to choose which ones to “Christianize.” Those who do are modern day Jeroboams who will not grant to God the right to tell them how God will be worshipped."

excerpt from:
Critical Issues Commentary: Contemporary Christian Divination

 

[Shiranui117]

Some examples from the past:

Lighthouse Trails Research Project - Exposing Contemplative Spirituality

What about these leads you to say that their own personal experiences take precedence over Scripture? Do you know of any of their sayings or visions that go against the message of Scripture?

Some more recent examples:

Dallas Willard
Rob Bell
Tony Compolo
Brian McLaren
Sue Monk Kidd
Richard Foster
Dan Kimball
Henri Nouwen

Out of the whole lot of these, I've only briefly heard mention of Rob Bell, and even then I don't know what he teaches. I don't know if any of these people represent authentically Christian mysticism; they certainly have no impact on Catholic or Orthodox mysticism.

 

[Shiranui117]

"I believe that Scripture alone determines the valid means of coming to God. The Scripture reveals one obvious restriction: “Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me’” (John 14:6). The Bible not only reveals the only way to salvation, but it also provides the means of grace for living the Christian life. God does not leave this up to man’s ingenuity. He has not left us to sift through the religious practices of the cultures of the world in order to choose which ones to “Christianize.” Those who do are modern day Jeroboams who will not grant to God the right to tell them how God will be worshipped."

excerpt from:
Critical Issues Commentary: Contemporary Christian Divination

What evidence do you have that certain Christian practices were adapted from Pagan or non-Christian sources, rather than having evolved of their own accord, independently of its non-Christian counterparts?

How do you know that these various practices (i.e. hesychasm, repeated prayers) leads to the rejection of certain Scriptural truths?

Also, I'm going to note that Morton Kelsey (who talks about hesychasm and the Jesus Prayer) is NOT Orthodox and has NO right or authority to be teaching others the spiritual practices of our Church. The same goes for Agnes Sanford.

 

[InChrist]

I too am interested in hearing this reply.



I'll agree, InChrist.

There are these people you speak of out there in all faith traditions.

My concern here is to not banter about straw-people who do/not practice in the way you speak of.

The common root of the issue which you speak is called ego.
No one has the corner on that market in the world.
How ego screws up things is a topic for another discussion perhaps.

Can we just talk about our self and not 'them' out there....?

I'm enjoying the conversation very much everyone.

Thank you all.

:namaste
SageTree

Hello SageTree

I'm not sure what you mean when you speak of ego. You may have to explain your perspective to me, if you care to. Maybe you mean something similar to what the Bible means when it speaks of 'self', but I/m not sure if that's what you mean. I will share my perspective and speak of myself and not them out there. In the biblical scriptures I am informed that I am a sinful being in need of a Savior. It took me awhile to believe and agree with this, but eventually through various life circumstances I came to see that this was a valid assessment of me. I would have been dishonest with myself to continue and deny this reality. I was sinful and I did need a Savior. At that point I asked Jesus to save me and He did. Not only did He save me during a particular 24-hour period, but He has been my life ever since. The scriptures indicate that when one places their faith in Christ. the sinful self dies. I was crucified with Christ and risen to new life. This is how God deals with sin...it is put to death and Christ now lives in me and I live in Christ.

The scriptures say that sinful beings cannot come into the presence of a holy God except through the Savior.This became a reality of my life. I believe the practice of various techniques as a means to connect with God are counterfeit ways which distract from the real mediator between God and humans...Jesus Christ who is all sufficient.

 

[InChrist]

Hello Shiranui117

Thank you for your last two posts and your thoughts and questions. I'm sorry I can't respond immediately. I have other commitments and my time on the computer is limited and sporadic, but I will try to get back at my next opportunity.

Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13

God bless,
In Christ

 

[Shiranui117]

Hello Shiranui117

Thank you for your last two posts and your thoughts and questions. I'm sorry I can't respond immediately. I have other commitments and my time on the computer is limited and sporadic, but I will try to get back at my next opportunity.

Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13

God bless,
In Christ

Ahh, forgive me for throwing more on your plate! As usual, put this post lower on your priority list; the earlier ones can come first.

Thank you for your prayers, and may God bless you even more so!

Hello SageTree

I'm not sure what you mean when you speak of ego. You may have to explain your perspective to me, if you care to. Maybe you mean something similar to what the Bible means when it speaks of 'self', but I/m not sure if that's what you mean. I will share my perspective and speak of myself and not them out there. In the biblical scriptures I am informed that I am a sinful being in need of a Savior. It took me awhile to believe and agree with this, but eventually through various life circumstances I came to see that this was a valid assessment of me. I would have been dishonest with myself to continue and deny this reality. I was sinful and I did need a Savior. At that point I asked Jesus to save me and He did. Not only did He save me during a particular 24-hour period, but He has been my life ever since.

Glory to God! May God grant you many years, peace, health and salvation!

The scriptures indicate that when one places their faith in Christ. the sinful self dies. I was crucified with Christ and risen to new life. This is how God deals with sin...it is put to death and Christ now lives in me and I live in Christ.

Well said, fully agreed here.

The scriptures say that sinful beings cannot come into the presence of a holy God except through the Savior.This became a reality of my life. I believe the practice of various techniques as a means to connect with God are counterfeit ways which distract from the real mediator between God and humans...Jesus Christ who is all sufficient.

The practices in Christian mysticism are, on the contrary, practices which are meant to help us draw nearer to Christ. These practices help us to cast aside all our earthly cares and focus deeply on praying to our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, and to His heavenly Father and to the all-holy, gracious and life-giving Spirit with all our hearts, minds and bodies.

 

[Me Myself]

"I believe that Scripture alone determines the valid means of coming to God. The Scripture reveals one obvious restriction: “Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me’” (John 14:6). The Bible not only reveals the only way to salvation, but it also provides the means of grace for living the Christian life. God does not leave this up to man’s ingenuity. He has not left us to sift through the religious practices of the cultures of the world in order to choose which ones to “Christianize.” Those who do are modern day Jeroboams who will not grant to God the right to tell them how God will be worshipped."

excerpt from:
Critical Issues Commentary: Contemporary Christian Divination

He also said "that which you do to my brother you did to me" . Meditation helps us be more loving, generous, meek, patient, have more gratitude be more humble and be much slower to anger.

All of this benefit you and all the people you meet with in your daily life, which in turn benefits your family greatly and thus benefit others greatly and so on and so forth.

So, given this fruits, we can see that silent meditation is a great tool to get closer to God, and is very likely what Jesus did in the desert in between prayers on his 40 days of fasting.

 

[Shiranui117]

He also said "that which you do to my brother you did to me" . Meditation helps us be more loving, generous, meek, patient, have more gratitude be more humble and be much slower to anger.

All of this benefit you and all the people you meet with in your daily life, which in turn benefits your family greatly and thus benefit others greatly and so on and so forth.

So, given this fruits, we can see that silent meditation is a great tool to get closer to God, and is very likely what Jesus did in the desert in between prayers on his 40 days of fasting.

You're assuming that Jesus stopped praying?

 

[Me Myself]

You're assuming that Jesus stopped praying?

I assume he prayed a lot, but also listened a lot.

:angel2:

 

[Shiranui117]

I assume he prayed a lot, but also listened a lot.

:angel2:

The two aren't mutually exclusive. Praying is a conversation with God, and conversations are two-way...

 

[Me Myself]

The two aren't mutually exclusive. Praying is a conversation with God, and conversations are two-way...

Well, there are kinds if prayers.

I assume he prayed the "holly father" , did a lot of silent listenings to be inspired on Gods wisdom and did some "free" talkings.

I mean, most saints did just that. We have seen him do as other saints do on all other things, like praying for strength.

So sure, they are not exclusive in the way you cant do both or that mor of one necessitares less of the other, but there are different ways of focus. You. Can focus on the words to see if some inspiration of Gods wisdom come from there, but you can also focus in the silence and wait for Gods inspiration to strike you.

Waiting in silence is also a form of seeking. As Jesus said, before you pray, God already knows what you want. So instead of praying for understanding, he may have prayed, but also given great importance to the simple waiting and paying attention, as he knew God knew what he wanted.

 

[Open_Minded]

InChrist - You came back and replied where you could still cling to your Bible verses. But .. you missed the human questions I asked of you.

Specifically:

The above is just ONE paragraph where he is describing a very important spiritual growing. He found himself telling his dear grandmother that she would be separated from her beloved husband and first-born child for eternity because they weren’t “born again”. Seriously – how do you feel about this????

Do you also believe that if a baby dies in infancy his/her mother will not know him/her in heaven? If you do – how deeply sad that is. And how about Granny’s departed husband? How could she ever truly be at peace in heaven if her husband and child were not with her simply because they were not “born again”??? Do you honestly believe that lovers for life would be separated in eternity if one were not “born again”????

I'm waiting for an answer to those questions. I would appreciate a human answer, one that focuses on your own feelings - rather than one that focuses on what you perceive that Bible verses are telling you to feel. There is a difference..

And while you're answering those questions, it would be wonderful if you would also address the personal story of Windwalker.

Back when I was a Bible school student in my youth on my way into the ministry, as I earnestly sat taking in everything I could from my instructors about God, desiring with all my heart to know and please God by being true to Him through his Word, a war was waged within me that ripped me apart. It was the war of the Spirit within me, and the words spewed from the pulpits that had everyone in the world but this small group of so-called "Born again" Christians being sent to hell because they didn't read the "plain meaning of the Bible" as they did.

I had not yet learned to trust that Spirit in my heart which gently but persistently told me this was not right, and so I blocked it, since they would also preach that we cannot "trust" the subjective, that you have to rely on what is written on the pages of the Bible - which seems so clear to me - at least in how they so simply framed it (that was an illusion, to say the least!!). So, like that man in OM story, I too sold my soul to this "Truth!!!" they proclaimed holding the Bible high in their hands as they damned everyone, and had to tell my parents that they were going to go to hell.

To this day... so very many years later, I feel grief I could ever have said that to them, even though they are living saints and forgave me back then, knowing I was just an eager youth and sincerely believed it. It hurt them, not for what I said to them, but because they could see the ANGUISH! it created for me. That anguish was ugly. It was not a truth of God. It ripped my heart apart, but not just because of how it made me see not only my own parents, but every other beautiful soul on the planet, but mainly because of how it made me see God! This is not what that Spirit in my soul told me. This was not the God of infinite Grace and compassion that I knew in every fiber of my being.

That man's story, is my story. A shame that was glossed over and not dealt with in this discussion.

Your perception of the "plain words" on the pages of the Bible leads to a theology like Windwalker spoke of above. How do you FEEL about a theology that would condemn those YOU love to the eternal torment of hell, simply because they are not "born again".

I really am interested in your own personal feelings about this - not what you feel the Bible is telling you to say - but what you feel yourself.

 

[SageTree]

Dallas Willard
Rob Bell
Tony Compolo
Brian McLaren
Sue Monk Kidd
Richard Foster
Dan Kimball
Henri Nouwen

I don't know if any of these people.

I know none of them either.

Morton Kelsey, Agnes Sanford.

I don't know either of these blokes either.

There are these people you speak of out there in all faith traditions.

My concern here is to not banter about straw-people who do/not practice in the way you speak of.

The common root of the issue which you speak is called ego.
No one has the corner on that market in the world.
How ego screws up things is a topic for another discussion perhaps.

Can we just talk about our self and not 'them' out there....?

Hello SageTree

I'm not sure what you mean when you speak of ego. You may have to explain your perspective to me, if you care to. Maybe you mean something similar to what the Bible means when it speaks of 'self', but I/m not sure if that's what you mean.

Bang on, you got it. Ego... Self... Many words. Same idea.

In this case you could think of it as the Ego-Driven Self....
or a Self-righteous Individual.

I maintain the use of Self though as I do believe that we have a Self or Personhood, which is our own uniqueness, through which the Spirit flows and changes us.

Just like the 'persons' of the Trinity... each unique in it's role and relationship to the God-Head.
So, having a God-Driven Self would of course be a good way to say it in my mind,
as I do think the Self is able to be used positively, specifically and linguistically.

I will share my perspective and speak of myself and not them out there. In the biblical scriptures I am informed that I am a sinful being in need of a Savior. It took me awhile to believe and agree with this, but eventually through various life circumstances I came to see that this was a valid assessment of me. I would have been dishonest with myself to continue and deny this reality. I was sinful and I did need a Savior. At that point I asked Jesus to save me and He did. Not only did He save me during a particular 24-hour period, but He has been my life ever since. The scriptures indicate that when one places their faith in Christ. the sinful self dies. I was crucified with Christ and risen to new life. This is how God deals with sin...it is put to death and Christ now lives in me and I live in Christ.

Thanks for telling me some of your story. That was beautiful.

That 'death to Self' is indeed the same 'Death of Ego' that I speak of.

So inasmuch we're on the same page there.

Continued blessings to you.

The scriptures say that sinful beings cannot come into the presence of a holy God except through the Savior.This became a reality of my life. I believe the practice of various techniques as a means to connect with God are counterfeit ways which distract from the real mediator between God and humans...Jesus Christ who is all sufficient.

I think the following says it so well.

The practices in Christian mysticism are, on the contrary, practices which are meant to help us draw nearer to Christ. These practices help us to cast aside all our earthly cares and focus deeply on praying to our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, and to His heavenly Father and to the all-holy, gracious and life-giving Spirit with all our hearts, minds and bodies.

What the monastics were 'fleeing' from, in desert literature, were these distractions between our Soul and God,
which have more to do with us, as God is always present and available.

However the 'fleeing' doesn't have to be literal, nor does our 'cell' to which we go to.
The setting aside distractions, 'fleeing', can happen in the 'cell' of our fallible body....

And our fallible body are windows into our Self, where we can see, with the Light,
the Ego-driven-Self , which separates our Soul from more Perfectly Loving God.

In Christ, Thank you for you talks here.
It's not my intention to prove you wrong, which is never my intention here.
I only wish to discuss and learn how others experience God and their life.

:namaste

The two aren't mutually exclusive. Praying is a conversation with God, and conversations are two-way...

I like this thought.


:namaste

Thanks to Everyone.
And thanks for God.

SageTree