1,000 Architects & Engineers Call for New 9/11 Investigation

[dust1n]

Or that a far majority know this claptrap for what it is.

People would've noticed that huge large amount of a highly controlled substance, high explosives, during any "remodeling" OR during construction.

This garbage is called a conspiracy theory for a reason. It's pure fantasy.

How is it possible for a hydrocarbon fire, with maximum temperatures below 1000F, and actual temperatures probably closer to 500F, manage to produce glowing hot steel (approx. 1300F) in the rubble pile weeks later?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

1.3 architects worldwide?!?! Why does any architect outside of America care outside of curious speculation?

I have no idea. You apparently questioned the claim that there are millions of architects; I gave the actual number. What does this matter to the thread? About as much as your remark that I was responding to... i.e. not much.

1.6 engineers! My god! All the computer engineers, software engineers, ocean engineers, automotive engineers, biomedical engineers.....

Heh... you can't have it both ways. Have you had a look at who makes up the list of the "1000 architects and engineers" that's the subject of this thread? Why would the qualifications of manufacturing engineers and landscape architects carry more weight when they're arguing for a conspiracy than when they're not?

 

[dust1n]

I have no idea. You apparently questioned the claim that there are millions of architects; I gave the actual number. What does this matter to the thread? About as much as your remark that I was responding to... i.e. not much.

Which was my point in response to the first time you brought up how insignificant '1,000' was, as was my point when Axis attempted to reissue the same argument.

Heh... you can't have it both ways. Have you had a look at who makes up the list of the "1000 architects and engineers" that's the subject of this thread? Why would the qualifications of manufacturing engineers and landscape architects carry more weight when they're arguing for a conspiracy than when they're not?

You are correct, but then again 1,000 probably does accurately reflect the number of American engineers who actually want a reinvestigation...

 

[AxisMundi]

How is it possible for a hydrocarbon fire, with maximum temperatures below 1000F, and actual temperatures probably closer to 500F, manage to produce glowing hot steel (approx. 1300F) in the rubble pile weeks later?

There is a tire dump in Sinclairville, NY.

In the mid-1990's, it started on fire.

I was present as a vol. fire fighter.

It was eventually covered over with soil, as such an event is not only nearly impossible to put out, but environmentally damaging as the runoff would be very toxic.

The "Hornberg Fire", as it was named later (after the owners of the illegal dump) is STILL smoldering underground to this day.

BTW, steel burns too. There is simply no mystery as to why there were still hotspots and smoldering portions in the WTC, even weeks later.

So, when you have some experience fighting fires, or learn something about fires in the first place, get back to us.

 

[AxisMundi]

BTW dust, the Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth is an INTERNATIONAL organization.

World wide numbers count for quite a lot in this discussion.

And when world wide numbers of architects and engineers are factored in, the "Birther" like attitude of the organization represents a laughably small portion of architects and engineers.

 

[dust1n]

There is a tire dump in Sinclairville, NY.

In the mid-1990's, it started on fire.

I was present as a vol. fire fighter.

It was eventually covered over with soil, as such an event is not only nearly impossible to put out, but environmentally damaging as the runoff would be very toxic.

The "Hornberg Fire", as it was named later (after the owners of the illegal dump) is STILL smoldering underground to this day.

BTW, steel burns too. There is simply no mystery as to why there were still hotspots and smoldering portions in the WTC, even weeks later.

So, when you have some experience fighting fires, or learn something about fires in the first place, get back to us.

Ok.. so why was the steel molten in the first place. That was my question, not why was it hot later?

 

[dust1n]

BTW dust, the Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth is an INTERNATIONAL organization.

World wide numbers count for quite a lot in this discussion.

And when world wide numbers of architects and engineers are factored in, the "Birther" like attitude of the organization represents a laughably small portion of architects and engineers.

Oh didn't see that.

Either way, Argumentum ad populum does not validate your argument.

 

[AxisMundi]

Ok.. so why was the steel molten in the first place. That was my question, not why was it hot later?

None of the steel was "molten".

The heat did indeed impact the structural capacity of the steel, but the steel didn't melt.

 

[dust1n]

None of the steel was "molten".

The heat did indeed impact the structural capacity of the steel, but the steel didn't melt.

Then why is there molten steel in the rubble pile, and falling off the building after the attack?

 

[AxisMundi]

Oh didn't see that.

Either way, Argumentum ad populum does not validate your argument.

No logical fallacy involved, neighbor.

Merely pointing out that any community has it's share of kooks.

You wouldn't try and claim YECers represent all Christians, would you?

Not to mention the number of members is claimed by Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth and as far as I know unconfirmed.

 

[AxisMundi]

Then why is there molten steel in the rubble pile, and falling off the building after the attack?

There certainly was pliable steel, IOW steel whose structural capacity had been all but eliminated, but there was no molten steel.

Remember, these were office buildings, with every possible type of burnable imaginable including paper, chemicals/paints, sprayed-on and other insulation, rubber, plastic, and fabrics.

There was also an obscene amount of glass that did indeed melt as well.

Also, any explosives would've had to been incorperated into the building during it's original construction. Merely ducktaping high explosives to the walls would not have come close to bringing the structures down.

Watch any film on controlled demolishion to see the amount of damage to structural members that must be accomplished before the explosives are even put in place.

But stop and think a moment.

1. Don't you think someone would've noticed explosives being incorperated into the original construction? We are litterally talking tons of high explosives.

2. What would've been the motive to include said explosive devices in the original building of the WTC nearly thirty years before the attack?

3. Explosives degrade over time. After thirty years (with no accidental misfires mind you) it would take nothing short of a miracle for them to go off as planned, in sequence, and bring the buildings down.

It simply doesn't add up.

 

[Aquitaine]

Surely it would be reasonable to want an independent investigation into 9/11?

And no, not to look for "zomg controlled demolition!" but to fully inspect how effective the Government and other branches were at attempting to stop this attack.

I honestly think it is credible to suggest that the White House knew 9/11 was gonna happen, and did nothing. Until you have a full independent investigtion with a generous budget and is aloud to interview key member under oath and on the record, along with being allowed access to sensitive government documents at the time, then it's not a true investigation.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Surely it would be reasonable to want an independent investigation into 9/11?

And no, not to look for "zomg controlled demolition!" but to fully inspect how effective the Government and other branches were at attempting to stop this attack.

Yeah, that might be useful. The problem I see, though, is that since much of the relevant information is confidential, you'd need the cooperation of the government to carry out an investigation like that, which would probably create a perception that the investigation is less than fully independent.

I honestly think it is credible to suggest that the White House knew 9/11 was gonna happen, and did nothing. Until you have a full independent investigtion with a generous budget and is aloud to interview key member under oath and on the record, along with being allowed access to sensitive government documents at the time, then it's not a true investigation.

I'm not so sure about that. I think it's entirely possible that the government posessed plenty of information that pointed toward 9-11, but they didn't put the pieces together until after the fact.

I think that the White House did know that Al-Qaeda posed a serious threat to the United States, but probably in the same sense that they knew about dozens of other groups that also posed serious threats that never came to fruition. They may have believed that Al-Qaeda warranted a higher level of attention, but I don't think they had specific knowledge of a specific threat; it's not like anyone in the White House got a message saying "On the morning of September 11, 2001, Al-Qaeda is going to hijack four airliners and crash them into buildings in New York and Washington" and just threw it in the trash saying "pffft! I don't want to do anything about that!"

Based on the information that I have that's been put out in the media, the main problem in the government that contributed to 9-11 was the closed walls between (and sometimes within) intelligence organizations. If the puzzle pieces were scattered between the FBI, the CIA, and a bunch of other agencies, nobody was going to put it together as long as they weren't talking or sharing.

 

[Gabethewiking]

Okay.. Okay, I admit it.. It was all an inside job.

George told me it wouldn't go this far, he sent me to the World Trade Center and because of his amazing intelligence and skill (George W Bush is one of the most intelligent people on the planet, and he accept the Lord, cant beat that) he told me which Bolts to unscrew, the rest happened by itself.

We told some muslims to bomb the building in the name of Allah, which they obviously did being Muslim as they wanted to end up with 72 virgins, or 74, I never remember, and then we supplied all the money they needed.

We did get some problems later on because, well, to tell you the truth, Cheney is a real sadist, he wanted to open a torture camp in Cuba so we could torture the muslims we pretended had planned and done it to us, I said Dick, it wont work, The Americna people would never accept the torturing of innocent people.. Well, as you know, I was wrong.

Well, that is pretty much it, I am sorry, I apologize to the Muslim community for the hundreds of thousands of men woman and children we murdered in the Middle East as we needed someone to blame, and I apologize to the American people for having to take time hating Muslims more then usual.

Now we can go back to hate our greatest allie through all of time and the nation that made us One Nation (Under God), the French.

 

[Aquitaine]

I'm not so sure about that. I think it's entirely possible that the government posessed plenty of information that pointed toward 9-11, but they didn't put the pieces together until after the fact.

I think that the White House did know that Al-Qaeda posed a serious threat to the United States, but probably in the same sense that they knew about dozens of other groups that also posed serious threats that never came to fruition. They may have believed that Al-Qaeda warranted a higher level of attention, but I don't think they had specific knowledge of a specific threat; it's not like anyone in the White House got a message saying "On the morning of September 11, 2001, Al-Qaeda is going to hijack four airliners and crash them into buildings in New York and Washington" and just threw it in the trash saying "pffft! I don't want to do anything about that!"

Based on the information that I have that's been put out in the media, the main problem in the government that contributed to 9-11 was the closed walls between (and sometimes within) intelligence organizations. If the puzzle pieces were scattered between the FBI, the CIA, and a bunch of other agencies, nobody was going to put it together as long as they weren't talking or sharing.

Well there are still many things that could contribute to a lack of efficiency and the walls between agencies like you said can certainly count as one of them, but surely having a proper thorough investigation would help prevent things like this form happeneing again, and it would show us areas in where we need to work on etc.

But when a government keeps pretty much all of it in the dark and Hell, doesn't even start an invesitgation until over a year after what happened, makes the Executive Director Philip Zelokow (before that, Henry Kissenger was supposed to lead it), y' know - it's hardly helping.

How can we improve on national defense and effeciency when it appears nothing is being reviewed an investigated etc.

 

[dust1n]

There certainly was pliable steel, IOW steel whose structural capacity had been all but eliminated, but there was no molten steel.

A 1341 F
B 1034 F
C 1161 F
D 963 F
E 801 F
F 1377 F
G 819 F

USGS Spectroscopy Lab - World Trade Center USGS environmental assessment


Waste Age Magazine:
"everything from molten steel beams to human remains."[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]

D-Day: NY Sanitation Workers' Challenge of a Lifetime

Government Computer News website quotes Greg Fuchek, vice president of sales for LinksPoint Inc. as stating: "In the first few weeks, sometimes when a worker would pull a steel beam from the wreckage, the end of the beam would be dripping molten steel..."

Handheld app eased recovery tasks

An article in The Newsletter of the Structural Engineers Association of Utah describing a speaking appearance by Leslie Robertson (structural engineer responsible for the design of the World Trade Center) contains this passage: "As of 21 days after the attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running."






9-11 Research: Molten Metal

 

[AxisMundi]

Well there are still many things that could contribute to a lack of efficiency and the walls between agencies like you said can certainly count as one of them, but surely having a proper thorough investigation would help prevent things like this form happeneing again, and it would show us areas in where we need to work on etc.

But when a government keeps pretty much all of it in the dark and Hell, doesn't even start an invesitgation until over a year after what happened, makes the Executive Director Philip Zelokow (before that, Henry Kissenger was supposed to lead it), y' know - it's hardly helping.

How can we improve on national defense and effeciency when it appears nothing is being reviewed an investigated etc.

Investigations occurred.

The results?

More intrusive legislation impinging upon (or effectively eliminating) Constitutional Rights.

More silly,totally ineffective hysterical over-reactions at airports.

Instead of fixing what's there, the creation of yet more inefficient, expensive bureaucracy.

The wasteful, uncessessary invasion of a country innocent of the attack.

 

[Aquitaine]

Investigations occurred.

The results?

More intrusive legislation impinging upon (or effectively eliminating) Constitutional Rights.

More silly,totally ineffective hysterical over-reactions at airports.

Instead of fixing what's there, the creation of yet more inefficient, expensive bureaucracy.

The wasteful, uncessessary invasion of a country innocent of the attack.

I personally think a lot of that happened because the people were being scared and mis-led by "zomg the terrorists!" so the process was lubricated so-to-speak.

Also, it's because of basically, a White House investigation into..... the White House. Or do you think no investigation was neccessary, or is neccessary now?

 

[AxisMundi]

A 1341 F
B 1034 F
C 1161 F
D 963 F
E 801 F
F 1377 F
G 819 F

USGS Spectroscopy Lab - World Trade Center USGS environmental assessment


Waste Age Magazine:
"everything from molten steel beams to human remains."

D-Day: NY Sanitation Workers' Challenge of a Lifetime

Government Computer News website quotes Greg Fuchek, vice president of sales for LinksPoint Inc. as stating: "In the first few weeks, sometimes when a worker would pull a steel beam from the wreckage, the end of the beam would be dripping molten steel..."

Handheld app eased recovery tasks

An article in The Newsletter of the Structural Engineers Association of Utah describing a speaking appearance by Leslie Robertson (structural engineer responsible for the design of the World Trade Center) contains this passage: "As of 21 days after the attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running."

9-11 Research: Molten Metal

The average melting point of steel is some 2,500 degrees F.

Mind pointing out on your map above any point where this tempurature is exceeded, or even met?

Aluminum melts as app 1220.5 degrees F. It is much more likely that what was WITNESSED was a metal other than steel, either aluminum from the aircraft involved or some of the tonnes of aluminum cladding of the WTC itself.

BTW, what you are probrably looking at as your "most damning testomonial" above (Robertson) is pure hearsay.

 

[dust1n]

The average melting point of steel is some 2,500 degrees F.

Mind pointing out on your map above any point where this tempurature is exceeded, or even met?

Aluminum melts as app 1220.5 degrees F. It is much more likely that what was WITNESSED was a metal other than steel, either aluminum from the aircraft involved or some of the tonnes of aluminum cladding of the WTC itself.

BTW, what you are probrably looking at as your "most damning testomonial" above (Robertson) is pure hearsay.

Ah, after looking over some info, I concede. That would explain it.