"1,000 Scientists Sign Up to Dissent from Darwin"

[BilliardsBall]

But the problem is you have been using creationists’ websites in which they distort not only the science with misinformation and propaganda, but they also distort the Bible which they supposedly holds dear.

Using and quoting false and biased information, would only make you look like you’re lying too.



Wow, you are more logical than any skeptic?

You are skeptic of science, bb. So if you want you claiming about skeptics being “deceived”, then you are also “deceived” by your own exercise in skepticism.

The Bible is far from being “logical”.

Genesis 1 & 2 (eg turning dust into a living adult man) are not the only chapters that defied logic and reality.

Example, talking serpent in Genesis 3 (as well as talking donkey in Numbers), defied all logic and reality. You would only find talking serpents, talking equines, dogs, cats, bears, panda, eagles, etc, in myths, fables and fairytale, and in modern fiction, like Doctor Doolittle, Harry Potter, Mister Ed, Francis the talking mule, all those Looney Tunes and Disney animations/movies, etc.

And if you read Job 38 to 41, you would see that the author have God’s answering Job with bunch of nonsensical superstitions. None of God’s ranting challenges have scientific merits. If that was truly God’s view of the natural world, then they all defied logic and reality.

In 2000, when I re-read the Bible that I have not touch in 14-15 years, my view have changed. And my revision didn’t start with Genesis creation.

No, my first doubt in 2000, started with Matthew 1:23 interpretation of Isaiah’s sign 7:14. That’s what made first doubting the veracity of the Bible’s infallibility and inerrancy.

Why didn’t I see the false claim from the gospel? My guess that that i didn’t any problem with Matthew 1’s claim of virgin birth because I was younger back then in the early to mid 1980s, less experience with reading and interpreting Bible, and back then, I was more readily to believe in anything, so I took the Bible at face value.

The gospel misinterpretation of Isaiah’s sign, made me re-examine every less than logical stories, eventually made me doubt Genesis creation and flood.

The Bible isn’t a science book, and it is mistake for creationists to use Genesis creation and flood as science. All it did, was exposed the gaping holes in the Bible.

I made the assertion that people who despise the Bible get their logic and minds warped.

Your response was not to assert or demonstrate your pure logic, but to attack the Bible, re-verifying my understanding and position!

 

[BilliardsBall]

1. Random mutations at the DNA level occur during reproduction.
2. Offspring produced are different than their parents because of these DNA level mutations.
3. These differences cause the offspring to respond in slightly different ways to pressures from the macro environment.
4. The slight differences can affect the chances of the offspring's survival.
5. Macro-environment pressures that put some DNA level mutations at risk while being advantageous to others will reduce the number of offspring that have the detrimental mutations while increasing the number of beneficial mutations.
6. As more generations come and go, the beneficial mutations will tend to spread throughout the population while the detrimental mutations will reduce in number.

Honestly, this is very basic. If you don't understand this, then you really should educate yourself before you try to have a discussion about it.

What you've described is a culling or tightening of the gene pool--yes, basic theory--yet what others described is against statistical likelihood. One skeptic claimed 1 in 10 mutations moved apes to people! That's ridiculous.

Also, your point 1 above AGREES with my statement. They are random mutations. Evolution cannot sidestep your steps 2-6 to heighten the efficiency of individual random mutations at step 2!

 

[Subduction Zone]

I already posted the math, using the numbers you gave, you had 300M total mutations yields 32M actual mutations in the species--an extraordinary, overreaching claim, ridiculous on its face.

Your trend, however, is to change your assertions after I call you out. So I see no point in further discussions on this matter. You may have the last word.

Where did you do that? I must hatve missed it. Let's see your calculations. Using the numbers I had the 300 million mutations were 300 million positive ones assuming a one in a million positive mutations rate. I will gladly go over the math again with you.

 

[gnostic]

I made the assertion that people who despise the Bible get their logic and minds warped.

I don’t despite the Bible.

What I do dislike is your interpretations of the Bible.

You are pushing meaning into the Bible that don’t belong there, like when you attempt to mix Bible and science together.

What you are doing is changing and twisting the contexts to fit with modern science, and you also trying twist science to fit the Bible...where and when it suits your agenda. That’s what I called “warping”.

You love the bible so much that you are willing to distort both bible and science.

You have perverted your own Bible, even if it meant trying to use deceptions or misinformation.

If you think there are warped mind and logic, look in the mirror

 

[Tiberius]

What you've described is a culling or tightening of the gene pool--yes, basic theory--yet what others described is against statistical likelihood. One skeptic claimed 1 in 10 mutations moved apes to people! That's ridiculous.

Also, your point 1 above AGREES with my statement. They are random mutations. Evolution cannot sidestep your steps 2-6 to heighten the efficiency of individual random mutations at step 2!

You have no idea what you are talking about.

The actual mutations may be random, but the mutations which are passed on from parent to offspring are NOT. The mutations which convey an advantage are the ones that are passed on. Different traits caused by these mutations are selected for by the natural pressures that the group of animals faces.

For example, if there is a population living in an area that has occasional cold periods, then any individuals that have slightly thicker fur will have an advantage, since they are better able to survive the cold periods. As such, they will live longer and have more offspring, since living longer means more time for mating. And their offspring will likely carry the thicker-fur trait too.

This is the essence of natural selection, the underlying mechanism by which evolution works.

Your apparent lack of knowledge about this subject seems to eliminate you from any kind of reasonable discussion about it.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I made the assertion that people who despise the Bible get their logic and minds warped.

Your response was not to assert or demonstrate your pure logic, but to attack the Bible, re-verifying my understanding and position!

So much for countenancing.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Where did you do that? I must hatve missed it. Let's see your calculations. Using the numbers I had the 300 million mutations were 300 million positive ones assuming a one in a million positive mutations rate. I will gladly go over the math again with you.

My calculations are in the thread, feel free to reference my post, but do not again dare to twist what I wrote. POST what I wrote so we can all see your false claims.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I don’t despite the Bible.

What I do dislike is your interpretations of the Bible.

You are pushing meaning into the Bible that don’t belong there, like when you attempt to mix Bible and science together.

What you are doing is changing and twisting the contexts to fit with modern science, and you also trying twist science to fit the Bible...where and when it suits your agenda. That’s what I called “warping”.

You love the bible so much that you are willing to distort both bible and science.

You have perverted your own Bible, even if it meant trying to use deceptions or misinformation.

If you think there are warped mind and logic, look in the mirror

If the Bible does not harmonize with science, you are saying that it's author is less intelligent than His creatures.

 

[Subduction Zone]

My calculations are in the thread, feel free to reference my post, but do not again dare to twist what I wrote. POST what I wrote so we can all see your false claims.

You made false claims about my calculations and I am asking you too support them. And you are a best projecting your flaws upon others. I did not twist your claims, yet you either twisted or lied about mine.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If the Bible does not harmonize with science, you are saying that it's author is less intelligent than His creatures.

Or, and I am just floating this out there, it was written by scientifically illiterate sheep herders. That would explain its poor science and bad morals.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You have no idea what you are talking about.

The actual mutations may be random, but the mutations which are passed on from parent to offspring are NOT. The mutations which convey an advantage are the ones that are passed on. Different traits caused by these mutations are selected for by the natural pressures that the group of animals faces.

For example, if there is a population living in an area that has occasional cold periods, then any individuals that have slightly thicker fur will have an advantage, since they are better able to survive the cold periods. As such, they will live longer and have more offspring, since living longer means more time for mating. And their offspring will likely carry the thicker-fur trait too.

This is the essence of natural selection, the underlying mechanism by which evolution works.

Your apparent lack of knowledge about this subject seems to eliminate you from any kind of reasonable discussion about it.

No, I agree! After all, our species and others have the ability to target mutations and mutated cells and wipe them out, as most mutations are NOT beneficial.

Natural selection can certainly help furrier animals survive cold conditions. They are not a new species quite yet! Next, explain how natural selections changes amoebas to people, showing steps taken, without hand-waving like "and then... organ systems form." Show the steps or some of the steps, so even a dolt like me can follow:

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, I agree! After all, our species and others have the ability to target mutations and mutated cells and wipe them out, as most mutations are NOT beneficial.

Natural selection can certainly help furrier animals survive cold conditions. They are not a new species quite yet! Next, explain how natural selections changes amoebas to people, showing steps taken, without hand-waving like "and then... organ systems form." Show the steps or some of the steps, so even a dolt like me can follow:

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)

here are 39 steps with more to follow. I will answer questions:

Systematic Classification of Life - YouTube

 

[gnostic]

If the Bible does not harmonize with science, you are saying that it's author is less intelligent than His creatures.

It isn’t just the Genesis creation.

Job 38, 39, 40 & 41, God’s replies, bragging about his powers, clearly demonstrated that whoever was author, didn’t understand the science behind nature. They were nothing more than superstition and ignorance.

The author, whoever he may be, clearly was telling story, not providing explanations of nature.

The author have made God, by today’s standards in science, like a petty, vicious fool, with no understanding of science. As Subduction Zone said, the author is “scientifically illiterate”.

 

[Polymath257]

If the Bible does not harmonize with science, you are saying that it's author is less intelligent than His creatures.

Or saying the Bible wasn't written by a deity, but by humans who were ignorant of the facts.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I already posted the math, using the numbers you gave, you had 300M total mutations yields 32M actual mutations in the species--an extraordinary, overreaching claim, ridiculous on its face.

Your trend, however, is to change your assertions after I call you out. So I see no point in further discussions on this matter. You may have the last word.

I do not see that his work is ridiculous. Explain how it is please.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Corrections:

There are 32 million DNA differences (assuming the skeptics' difference of "only" 1% between chimps and people) between these species.

You claimed math which I accepted, showing a likely 300 million mutations during the descent from apes to men.

That is less than 1 in 10 mutations are positive and included in the final resultant species--YOU claimed evolution uses selection and variation to ensure changes move forward in this way.

That is nonsense! NONSENSE. DO YOU CLAIM 1 in 10 random mutations are positive?!

I cannot discuss evolution with you when you go AGAINST all our current knowledge regarding mutations and positive outcomes.

Which skeptics are you saying make the claim? You're a skeptic of science. To be fair, you deny science or at least science that challenges your idea of an infallible Bible. An unnecessary burden you have placed on yourself, but I doubt revealing that means much to you.

How do you know that he goes against all our current knowledge of mutations and selection, when you have revealed that you know very little, if any, of that current knowledge?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Or saying the Bible wasn't written by a deity, but by humans who were ignorant of the facts.

That is what the evidence would support. He views the Bible as if it were dictated by God, but I cannot imagine God would produce such an inconsistent document.

 

[gnostic]

If the Bible does not harmonize with science, you are saying that it's author is less intelligent than His creatures.

Or saying the Bible wasn't written by a deity, but by humans who were ignorant of the facts.

And there lies Billiardsball’s problem.

He seriously think God wrote the Bible.

Clearly he refused to see reasons.

Like Dan said, there are too much inconsistencies, contradictions and errors for to be written by a deity.

 

[Skwim]

Like Dan said, there are too much inconsistencies, contradictions and errors for to be written by a deity.

Hey, it isn't as if god never made mistakes. In some ways god is all too human.


.

 

[gnostic]

Hey, it isn't as if god never made mistakes. In some ways god is all too human.
.

Too human, indeed.