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"1,000 Scientists Sign Up to Dissent from Darwin"

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Sorry, but I haven't the slightest idea of what you're talking about.

.

You are upset that 1,000 scientists said they believe in evolution but differently than other scientists. You then claim all 1,000 are dishonest. Where science is in flux, i.e., string theory, I recognize that scientists have differing opinions, which doesn't make them dishonest.

Because you are constantly attacking Christians, you are accusing Ken Ham of being dishonest. Now, you are accusing 1,000 allied scientists of being dishonest. It is more likely that not all 1,000 scientists are dishonest and highly likely that you biased, blinded, rude.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Nobody believes evolution.

The creationist does not believe it, by giving priority to ancient books written by goat herders. Or some other ancient so called sacred book.

The others do not beileve it, either. They know it is true.

Ciao

- viole

How do YOU know it's true? For example, since science is utterly unable, despite a century of effort, to demonstrate abiogenesis, you must be taking it on FAITH.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Being an engineer does not make one wrong perse, it is simply an absurd and irrelevant pretense when used as an appeal to authority as relates to Darwinian Evolution. The same can be said of degrees in Physics, Medicine, Dentistry, Psychology, and most of the other credentials on THE LIST. Then there are the losers who can dredge up nothing more impressive of being a "Fellow" of an organization that has no more requirements that paying one's dues of claiming a position of "Adjunct" faculty. I suspect that a real combing of THE LIST would leave maybe one or two dozen who might reasonably claim expertise on the basis of their credentials. Another intriguing artifact of THE LIST are the affiliations. Please note that the affiliations listed do not reflect the individuals' affiliation at the time of signing but rather reflect the compilers' cherry picking of the affiliation that they adjudge being the most reputable. An example of this is Robert W Bass, who is listed as a PhD in Mathematics (also Rhodes Scholar; Post-Doc at Princeton) with an affiliation with Johns Hopkins University. The fact is that he was a Professor of Physics and Astronomy at Brigham Young University, having earned a PhD from Johns Hopkins. Being affiliated with Johns Hopkins is far more prestigious than BYU, especially when you consider that Bass was a Cold Fusion wacko and a supporter of the Worlds in Collision wack-a-doodle Velikovsky. It was the latter affiliation that ultimately resulted in his being “dismissed for cause” from BYU. Please note that I knew nothing of Bass before tonight and I selected him from the list for further scrutiny because I have great respect for the Rhodes Scholar program.
But being only an engineer doesn't make someone a scientist, does it?
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
How do YOU know it's true? For example, since science is utterly unable, despite a century of effort, to demonstrate abiogenesis, you must be taking it on FAITH.

The Miller-Urey experiment demonstrated that organic molecules could have been formed from some of the inorganic components and natural energy sources thought to have existed on primordial Earth.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
How do YOU know it's true? For example, since science is utterly unable, despite a century of effort, to demonstrate abiogenesis, you must be taking it on FAITH.

Ach. Abiogenesis has nothing to do with evolution.

Why do you guys make always the same mistake? Evolution explains life complexity, UNDER THE ASSUMPTION OF A SIMPLE BEGINNING, which is unexplained.

It is like studying stars evolution without caring of where the gallactic gas comes from.

Should not be so difficult to understand. Especially to guys who believe to be in the image (intellectual, not apelike) of God.

Ciao

- viole
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Every mutation by definition increases "information". And your demand of making something "more complex" is unfounded. You can't even define the terms that you use, no answer will satisfy you.
So...you can provide no empirical evidence to support common-descent evolution. Ñot even Lenski's E. coli LTEE (30 years, 60,000+ generations), under lab conditions, i.e., forced adaptation, could generate any multi-cellularity, or other obvious evolution. (Turning on a pre-existing gene to enable consumption of citrate, is only adapting to controlled, ie., artificial environmental changes, nothing else.)
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Surely you can provide us with an example of a genetic mutation or evolutionary process which has been observed to increase information in the genome, leading to a more complex organism.
Before anyone can answer that, you need to first define "genetic information" and provide a means to measure it. My guess is you won't and will just disappear as you so often do.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
So...you can provide no empirical evidence to support common-descent evolution.
I forget now who originally posted these on this forum, but I keep it in my archives because it offers a nice 'linear' progression of testing a methodology and then applying it - I have posted this more than a dozen times for creationists who claim that there is no evidence for evolution:

The tested methodology:


Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.



We can ASSUME that the results of an application of those methods have merit.


Application of the tested methodology:


Implications of natural selection in shaping 99.4% nonsynonymous DNA identity between humans and chimpanzees: Enlarging genus Homo

"Here we compare ≈90 kb of coding DNA nucleotide sequence from 97 human genes to their sequenced chimpanzee counterparts and to available sequenced gorilla, orangutan, and Old World monkey counterparts, and, on a more limited basis, to mouse. The nonsynonymous changes (functionally important), like synonymous changes (functionally much less important), show chimpanzees and humans to be most closely related, sharing 99.4% identity at nonsynonymous sites and 98.4% at synonymous sites. "



Mitochondrial Insertions into Primate Nuclear Genomes Suggest the Use of numts as a Tool for Phylogeny

"Moreover, numts identified in gorilla Supercontigs were used to test the human–chimp–gorilla trichotomy, yielding a high level of support for the sister relationship of human and chimpanzee."



A Molecular Phylogeny of Living Primates

"Once contentiously debated, the closest human relative of chimpanzee (Pan) within subfamily Homininae (Gorilla, Pan, Homo) is now generally undisputed. The branch forming the Homo andPanlineage apart from Gorilla is relatively short (node 73, 27 steps MP, 0 indels) compared with that of thePan genus (node 72, 91 steps MP, 2 indels) and suggests rapid speciation into the 3 genera occurred early in Homininae evolution. Based on 54 gene regions, Homo-Pan genetic distance range from 6.92 to 7.90×10−3 substitutions/site (P. paniscus and P. troglodytes, respectively), which is less than previous estimates based on large scale sequencing of specific regions such as chromosome 7[50]. "




Catarrhine phylogeny: noncoding DNA evidence for a diphyletic origin of the mangabeys and for a human-chimpanzee clade.

"The Superfamily Hominoidea for apes and humans is reduced to family Hominidae within Superfamily Cercopithecoidea, with all living hominids placed in subfamily Homininae; and (4) chimpanzees and humans are members of a single genus, Homo, with common and bonobo chimpanzees placed in subgenus H. (Pan) and humans placed in subgenus H. (Homo). It may be noted that humans and chimpanzees are more than 98.3% identical in their typical nuclear noncoding DNA and probably more than 99.5% identical in the active coding nucleotide sequences of their functional nuclear genes (Goodman et al., 1989, 1990). In mammals such high genetic correspondence is commonly found between sibling species below the generic level but not between species in different genera."
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
But being only an engineer doesn't make someone a scientist, does it?
It depends. Does that person follow the scientific method? If he does he could be said to be a scientist. Creationists on the other hand that work at various creationist sites have to swear not to use the scientific method.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You are upset that 1,000 scientists said they believe in evolution but differently than other scientists. You then claim all 1,000 are dishonest. Where science is in flux, i.e., string theory, I recognize that scientists have differing opinions, which doesn't make them dishonest.

Because you are constantly attacking Christians, you are accusing Ken Ham of being dishonest. Now, you are accusing 1,000 allied scientists of being dishonest. It is more likely that not all 1,000 scientists are dishonest and highly likely that you biased, blinded, rude.
Did he say all? It is easy to show that most are dishonest.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
How do YOU know it's true? For example, since science is utterly unable, despite a century of effort, to demonstrate abiogenesis, you must be taking it on FAITH.
Abiogenesis is nothing to do with evolution BUT it is the best explanation for how life began.
If you asked me to bet my mortgage on it being true, I wouldn't take the bet.
However, if you asked me for a better explanation, I don't have one, so until a better explanation comes along, it is abiogenesis for me.

(BTW, if you asked me to bet my mortgage on evolution being true, I would do)
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
You are upset that 1,000 scientists said they believe in evolution but differently than other scientists. You then claim all 1,000 are dishonest. Where science is in flux, i.e., string theory, I recognize that scientists have differing opinions, which doesn't make them dishonest.

Because you are constantly attacking Christians, you are accusing Ken Ham of being dishonest. Now, you are accusing 1,000 allied scientists of being dishonest. It is more likely that not all 1,000 scientists are dishonest and highly likely that you biased, blinded, rude.

Billiards.

1000 scientists are 3 scientists every 10,000 ones.

Are yoy guys so desperate to see that as a possible change of consensus? What shouil we say then about the major disagreements you have within your doctrine? Young earth, old earth. Eternal torment, separation from god. New trib, old trib, whatever that means. Etc. etc.

If you believe science is doubting evolution, then I would say we are entitled to believe that Christianity is in complete chaotic disarray, if we compare the %.

Let makes a bet. Jesus will come back before science and reason will abandon evolution.

Deal?

Ciao

- viole
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
So...you can provide no empirical evidence to support common-descent evolution. Ñot even Lenski's E. coli LTEE (30 years, 60,000+ generations), under lab conditions, i.e., forced adaptation, could generate any multi-cellularity, or other obvious evolution. (Turning on a pre-existing gene to enable consumption of citrate, is only adapting to controlled, ie., artificial environmental changes, nothing else.)
What!? How do you draw that rather inane conclusion?

Lenski's experiment was not set up to cause multicellularity to appear. This is a red herring. That trait has been observed in other experiments. And you do not even appear to understand what empirical evidence is. Let's discuss that first. There is no point covering more basic ideas when you do not understand the basics.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Before anyone can answer that, you need to first define "genetic information" and provide a means to measure it.
Formation of new endogenous genes, i.e., non-hgt, enabling growth of new function or anatomical feature.

My guess is you won't and will just disappear as you so often do.
Trying to goad me?
Lol.
As I've explained to you in the past, I don't respond to obvious nonsense, or to questions that require me to repeat myself, that I've already answered in the thread.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
You are upset that 1,000 scientists said they believe in evolution but differently than other scientists. You then claim all 1,000 are dishonest. Where science is in flux, i.e., string theory, I recognize that scientists have differing opinions, which doesn't make them dishonest.

Because you are constantly attacking Christians, you are accusing Ken Ham of being dishonest. Now, you are accusing 1,000 allied scientists of being dishonest. It is more likely that not all 1,000 scientists are dishonest and highly likely that you biased, blinded, rude.
Your reading comprehension leaves a bit to be desired, and I'm not about to bother bringing you up to speed.

Have a good day. :thumbsup:

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