• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

10 commandments, for men only...

waitasec

Veteran Member
Of course, these commandments have sprang from an absolutely male dominate society. if you take a look at cultures that retained these traditions such as in the middle east, you will see that the woman's life is dictated by her male family members such as father, brother, husband.
there is absolutely nothing surprising about this fact.
this tradition has also existed in my middle eastern side of the family, such as deciding who gets married to whom.

i just find it interesting how a religion from the past that was so obviously male dominated can possibly be acceptable as a "religion" for today, especially in the west.
the "explanation" of the human origin says women are to be subjected to men...a commandment directly from "god". it is so obvious that religion is a human byproduct and a mirror of the times from which they come from.

but then you get those who say ..."true, religion is man made but i have a relationship with god" all while ignoring their relationship was based on these man made concepts in the first place...

what is it's purpose of religion if people are constantly explaining and reinterpreting the intent? it just goes to show how religion is approached as an entity with inalienable rights.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
i just find it interesting how a religion from the past that was so obviously male dominated can possibly be acceptable as a "religion" for today, especially in the west.
the "explanation" of the human origin says women are to be subjected to men...a commandment directly from "god". it is so obvious that religion is a human byproduct and a mirror of the times from which they come from.

but then you get those who say ..."true, religion is man made but i have a relationship with god" all while ignoring their relationship was based on these man made concepts in the first place...

what is it's purpose of religion if people are constantly explaining and reinterpreting the intent? it just goes to show how religion is approached as an entity with inalienable rights.

Im not sure what is different today. it might get a lot of people to hear it, but the world is still run by men in most places, men politicians and men religious leaders. so how much of it is different? further more, many of these men still hold these traditions.
 

Renji

Well-Known Member
Ex 20:17 You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

deut 5:21 Neither shall you covet your neighbor’s wife. Neither shall you desire your neighbor’s house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

seems to me, these commandments are directed to men?
:shrug:

in addition, are wives considered property cause it sure seems she is listed as such...
don't covet your neighbors
house (house is listed before wife in exodus)
wife
belongings
slave
ox
donkey

is it for men only?

To be honest to you, 'ms. waitasec', you need to remember that the Bible contains many figures of speech and some verses does not mean the literal thing.;)
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Ah, that's all right. I'm planning on writing my own "Mystic Manifesto" that outlines my authority and how humans ought to live in bisexual polyamorous free-for-alls. Adult consent is the law of the land, and pirates are outlawed and punishable by death.

In other words, I don't agree with the ten commandments, and therefore I don't elevate their importance in my life. Now, those patriarchal yay-hoos still in power on the other hand....that's where my direct my attention.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The 10 Commandments ain't so bad for women.
Sure you're property, but it appears you're allowed to covet whomever you want.
I'd rather not burn in Hell, but there's nothing I can do about it anyway.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Im not sure what is different today. it might get a lot of people to hear it, but the world is still run by men in most places, men politicians and men religious leaders. so how much of it is different? further more, many of these men still hold these traditions.

women are more empowered than ever before...in the west that is.
i agree with you in regards to the east
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Ah, that's all right. I'm planning on writing my own "Mystic Manifesto" that outlines my authority and how humans ought to live in bisexual polyamorous free-for-alls. Adult consent is the law of the land, and pirates are outlawed and punishable by death.

In other words, I don't agree with the ten commandments, and therefore I don't elevate their importance in my life. Now, those patriarchal yay-hoos still in power on the other hand....that's where my direct my attention.

l lerv it
:D
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
The 10 Commandments ain't so bad for women.
Sure you're property, but it appears you're allowed to covet whomever you want.
I'd rather not burn in Hell, but there's nothing I can do about it anyway.

it's not just the coveting...
i can worship other gods too
 
Last edited:

waitasec

Veteran Member
Women were possessions in Biblical times, hence the reason the Biblical authors assumed the deity was male.

imo, men created god in their image
as a jealous, vengeful and insecure.
sometimes he was nice, especially if everything was going his way.
but don't don't get him mad or you'll pay :sarcastic
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
the purpose for the oral torah was to soften the edges or blur the lines
in order to keep up with how society was evolving, which had nothing to do with god's intention...because "god" paved the way for this male dominated world-gen 3:16...

You are presuming here that God is the literal and direct author of the Torah. Most Jews today do not believe this. Many struggle with reconciling the question of authorship. The median position, which is more or less where I fall, is that God inspired prophets, who wrote the Torah, but did so using the language they were familiar with, and bearing the social preconceptions that they were raised with. But in any case, even traditional commentators, who did believe in direct Divine authorship, have always viewed the early, cosmogonical portions of Genesis as, at best, deeply oblique in mystical allusion, and at worst, not to be taken entirely literally.

There is a maxim often quoted in Rabbinic literature (and frequently quoted in reference to matters of early Genesis): dibrah Torah ki'l'shon b'nei adam, which means "The Torah speaks according to the langauge people use." By which is meant two things: first, that Torah uses idiom, metaphor, narrative compression, imagery, and all the literary devices we are familiar with in great works of literature; and also that Torah may sometimes speak in allegorical parable, which is to be understood by allusion, and not to be taken literally.

My presumption-- and I many traditional Jewish sources have said so before me-- is that the account of the creation, the Eden story, and the expulsion therefrom, is not to be taken literally. Which, even on its own, would make me think that we cannot merely blame God for creating an androcentric society.

Also, the idea behind Oral Torah is not to "blur" Written Torah to "keep up with" society, but to create a foundation for Jewish society that lives with society: that, in other words, Torah does not "keep up with" society, nor does society "keep up with" Torah-- they evolve together, inextricably linked. It is this paradigm that is encapsulated by the Rabbinic maxim Yisra'el v'Oraita ve'Kudsha Brich Hu chad hu, which means "Israel, Torah, and God are all One." Obviously this is not intended to be literal: the Jews are not God. Nor is Torah God. Nor is God a Jew. But what is meant is that by conceiving of Torah not as merely a document, but as a transgenerational, eternal, ever-evolving conversation between God and the people Israel, using Written Torah as a centerpoint around which the conversation revolves, what is produced is a covenant that is living: revelation never ceases, but is constant, in the sense that multiple meanings, alternate interpretations, reinterpretations of story, new understandings of the narrative, are all seen as inspired by God, and, at the same time, our offering to God as covenant partners.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
You are presuming here that God is the literal and direct author of the Torah. Most Jews today do not believe this. Many struggle with reconciling the question of authorship. The median position, which is more or less where I fall, is that God inspired prophets, who wrote the Torah, but did so using the language they were familiar with, and bearing the social preconceptions that they were raised with. But in any case, even traditional commentators, who did believe in direct Divine authorship, have always viewed the early, cosmogonical portions of Genesis as, at best, deeply oblique in mystical allusion, and at worst, not to be taken entirely literally.

There is a maxim often quoted in Rabbinic literature (and frequently quoted in reference to matters of early Genesis): dibrah Torah ki'l'shon b'nei adam, which means "The Torah speaks according to the langauge people use." By which is meant two things: first, that Torah uses idiom, metaphor, narrative compression, imagery, and all the literary devices we are familiar with in great works of literature; and also that Torah may sometimes speak in allegorical parable, which is to be understood by allusion, and not to be taken literally.

My presumption-- and I many traditional Jewish sources have said so before me-- is that the account of the creation, the Eden story, and the expulsion therefrom, is not to be taken literally. Which, even on its own, would make me think that we cannot merely blame God for creating an androcentric society.

Also, the idea behind Oral Torah is not to "blur" Written Torah to "keep up with" society, but to create a foundation for Jewish society that lives with society: that, in other words, Torah does not "keep up with" society, nor does society "keep up with" Torah-- they evolve together, inextricably linked. It is this paradigm that is encapsulated by the Rabbinic maxim Yisra'el v'Oraita ve'Kudsha Brich Hu chad hu, which means "Israel, Torah, and God are all One." Obviously this is not intended to be literal: the Jews are not God. Nor is Torah God. Nor is God a Jew. But what is meant is that by conceiving of Torah not as merely a document, but as a transgenerational, eternal, ever-evolving conversation between God and the people Israel, using Written Torah as a centerpoint around which the conversation revolves, what is produced is a covenant that is living: revelation never ceases, but is constant, in the sense that multiple meanings, alternate interpretations, reinterpretations of story, new understandings of the narrative, are all seen as inspired by God, and, at the same time, our offering to God as covenant partners.


i appreciate you taking your time to explain, thank you :)

you have to admit this "transgenerational, eternal, ever-evolving conversation between God and the people Israel" is very hard to understand.
because god is understood, at least from my perspective, as a constant and never changing.
as someone who does not believe in 'god' it is obvious to me that the story of creation was written by men to explain why men should rule over women. so i don't blame god for creating a male dominated society. i blame man/men whatever. it was what it was and thank goodness we are not there now. however there are some parts of the world that is still caught up in the old ways and refuse to evolve simply because the enlightenment philosophy is from the west which is against gods 'original intent'. by gods intent i mean whatever societal biases gods 'people' are inclined to.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
i appreciate you taking your time to explain, thank you :)

you have to admit this "transgenerational, eternal, ever-evolving conversation between God and the people Israel" is very hard to understand.
because god is understood, at least from my perspective, as a constant and never changing.
as someone who does not believe in 'god' it is obvious to me that the story of creation was written by men to explain why men should rule over women. so i don't blame god for creating a male dominated society. i blame man/men whatever. it was what it was and thank goodness we are not there now. however there are some parts of the world that is still caught up in the old ways and refuse to evolve simply because the enlightenment philosophy is from the west which is against gods 'original intent'. by gods intent i mean whatever societal biases gods 'people' are inclined to.

I can totally understand that. I think that one of the fundamental challenges for theologians, and those among us who are interested in religion, God, and how we interact with one another and with God, is to constantly wrestle with questions of "What is religion" versus "What is God." Or perhaps in other words, "What can be said to be true of a God who is ultimately beyond our comprehension," versus "What can we understand to be attempts of many people to understand more of God's nature." It is this latter category that is all too often mistaken for the former.

And, as always, fundamentalism is never a friend to religion. It clouds the issues, it seeks to replace the complexity of thought, the freedom of speculation, so necessary to keeping alive a tradition of revelation, with easy answers, or at least pat answers, oversimplification, and avoidance of real issues. Unfortunately, for too many people, especially in America, their experience misleads them to equate fundamentalism with religion, and thus become dismissive of religion as a whole; which is a great loss for non-fundamentalist religion, which is always in need of more people willing to wrestle with hard questions.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
I can totally understand that. I think that one of the fundamental challenges for theologians, and those among us who are interested in religion, God, and how we interact with one another and with God, is to constantly wrestle with questions of "What is religion" versus "What is God." Or perhaps in other words, "What can be said to be true of a God who is ultimately beyond our comprehension," versus "What can we understand to be attempts of many people to understand more of God's nature." It is this latter category that is all too often mistaken for the former.

And, as always, fundamentalism is never a friend to religion. It clouds the issues, it seeks to replace the complexity of thought, the freedom of speculation, so necessary to keeping alive a tradition of revelation, with easy answers, or at least pat answers, oversimplification, and avoidance of real issues. Unfortunately, for too many people, especially in America, their experience misleads them to equate fundamentalism with religion, and thus become dismissive of religion as a whole; which is a great loss for non-fundamentalist religion, which is always in need of more people willing to wrestle with hard questions.

but that is always a danger with religion.
which is why i have a big problem with it
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Ah, that's all right. I'm planning on writing my own "Mystic Manifesto" that outlines my authority and how humans ought to live in bisexual polyamorous free-for-alls.

O.K. now you done it. I just might need to submit to your authoritah manifesto and follow in lockstep with the rest of em.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
but that is always a danger with religion.
which is why i have a big problem with it

There, I am afraid, we may have to cordially agree to disagree.

I would go so far as to say that religion is like any other powerful body of knowledge: it can be abused, and, unfortunately, often is. But that doesn't change what it's meant to be, what it's for, what it may yet more consistently come to be. Fundamentalism is just an abuse of religion, the same as, say, designing horrific weapons or sophisticated instruments of torture is an abuse of science. But nobody would say that designing horrific weapons or sophisticated instruments of torture is the nature or purpose of science, or that it is what science is there for, or that because of it, science is simply too dangerous, and should be abandoned....
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
There, I am afraid, we may have to cordially agree to disagree.

I would go so far as to say that religion is like any other powerful body of knowledge: it can be abused, and, unfortunately, often is. But that doesn't change what it's meant to be, what it's for, what it may yet more consistently come to be. Fundamentalism is just an abuse of religion, the same as, say, designing horrific weapons or sophisticated instruments of torture is an abuse of science. But nobody would say that designing horrific weapons or sophisticated instruments of torture is the nature or purpose of science, or that it is what science is there for, or that because of it, science is simply too dangerous, and should be abandoned....

i'm all for spirituality, meaning using the right side of the brain more often
;)
 
Top