$100,000 for the head of an old cartoonist?

[LumpHammer]

How can you be sure people are acting a certain way because of their religion? I happen to think religion doesn't so much cause people to act a certain way as it facilitates their acting in a certain way. And religions tend to facilitate people to do both good and evil. A person who wishes to do good will usually find religion can help them do good. And a person who wishes to do evil will usually find religion can help them do evil. Do you have any reason to believe otherwise? That is, to believe that religion turns people into good or evil people?

I think you are mostly right.
However certain religions do seem to facilitate more extremists than others.

 

[SoyLeche]

There is a point being made. I rarely (for the reason you laid out) use the word cult.
Also I did say 'for the most part' - which is not always!

Actually, I think that the term "cult" doesn't really get the message across very well. "Cult" implies some sort of organization, that "religion" doesn't necessarily imply. As far as I know there isn't an over-arching Muslim orgainization. There are probably local organizations, but I'm not sure how much influence even that has.

 

[Hema]

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making statements which may be inciting to fellow RF members. Thank you.​

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

Islam is not comparable to a Club. It is a belief about the very fabric of our Universe. Consider a more proper example. If ten percent of Atheists wanted a cartoonist's head, would you abandon Atheism?

Athiesm has no set in stone (Quran) core of beleifs. Athiest simply don't have a God, nothing more to it than that. However, a person who says they take the Bible or the Q'uran seriously and feel they are supposed to do, literally, the things said in those books are out and out obliged to murder apostates, athiests, people who get somebody to leave the faith (in addition to the apostate himself already mentioned), witches, idoloters, etc. etc. etc.

If I was involved with the Jaycees, or the Super Adventure Club and 10% of those folks thought that the book upon which our organization was founded on and guided by said to go out killing innocents, then you betcha, I would bail, and turn them in to authorities.

The club analogy works better than Athiesm, because both the Club and the Religion are (supposedly) voluntary organisations existing so that people of like minds can get together for a specific purpose, be that social club purposes or worship purposes. Can anything remotely similar be said of Athiests? For goodness' sakes, we don't even have buildings to meet in, much less an agreed upon set of beleifs or goals to discuss if we did ever have said meeting in a building we don't currently have.

B.

 

[jamaesi]

Athiesm has no set in stone (Quran) core of beleifs. Athiest simply don't have a God, nothing more to it than that. However, a person who says they take the Bible or the Q'uran seriously and feel they are supposed to do, literally, the things said in those books are out and out obliged to murder apostates, athiests, people who get somebody to leave the faith (in addition to the apostate himself already mentioned), witches, idoloters, etc. etc. etc.

If I was involved with the Jaycees, or the Super Adventure Club and 10% of those folks thought that the book upon which our organization was founded on and guided by said to go out killing innocents, then you betcha, I would bail, and turn them in to authorities.

The club analogy works better than Athiesm, because both the Club and the Religion are (supposedly) voluntary organisations existing so that people of like minds can get together for a specific purpose, be that social club purposes or worship purposes. Can anything remotely similar be said of Athiests? For goodness' sakes, we don't even have buildings to meet in, much less an agreed upon set of beleifs or goals to discuss if we did ever have said meeting in a building we don't currently have.

B.

You want to quote the verses that say we're supposed to kill those people?

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

I am much more familiar with Levitical laws on the matter from the Old Testament, but just off the top of my head, the verse of the sword?

I actually have a book with several pages of Q'uranic and OT quotes in those regards, but it is not where I am at the moment.

B.

 

[jamaesi]

I am much more familiar with Levitical laws on the matter from the Old Testament, but just off the top of my head, the verse of the sword?

I actually have a book with several pages of Q'uranic and OT quotes in those regards, but it is not where I am at the moment.

B.

Tsch. Try again.

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

Here we go:

Deuteronomy chapter 13 calls for the murder of false prophets.
Exxodus 22:18 says to murder witches

Amputations and slaughter of unbelievers: God is acting through the Muslims when they do this

• 8:12-13,17 Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." This because they contended against God and His Apostle: If any contend against God and His Apostle, God is strict in punishment. ... It is not ye who slew them; it was God

The importance of military fighting for Islam

• 2:216 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not.
• 2:217 They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter.
• 4:84 Then fight in God's cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers.

8:38-39 Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them). And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily God doth see all that they do.

9:5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

9:29 Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya [tribute] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Will update with more as I come across them.

 

[neves]

Here we go:

Deuteronomy chapter 13 calls for the murder of false prophets.
Exxodus 22:18 says to murder witches

Amputations and slaughter of unbelievers: God is acting through the Muslims when they do this

• 8:12-13,17 Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." This because they contended against God and His Apostle: If any contend against God and His Apostle, God is strict in punishment. ... It is not ye who slew them; it was God

The importance of military fighting for Islam

• 2:216 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not.
• 2:217 They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter.
• 4:84 Then fight in God's cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers.

8:38-39 Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them). And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily God doth see all that they do.

9:5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

9:29 Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya [tribute] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Will update with more as I come across them.

These kinds of posts frustrate me… please go get a copy of the Quran and read all those quotes in context… instead of taking out snippets and reinforcing your stereotypes…

 

[anders]

The kindest thing I can say about the "artist" Vilks is that he's an insane media whore. He has without any permission erected some heaps of junk in a protected nature reservation, claming that his "art" allows him to disregard law. One of those heaps has been removed by the authorities, and two others, often attacked by protesters, have gotten him prosecuted - which he regards as a part of the work of art. He has declared the ground of the "Nimis" as an independent state...

I think he should be brought to court for sabotaging. He must have realized what his cartoon would mean for Swedish companies. In saying this, I don't discuss or judge the reactions, just note that they were predictable.

 

[cardero]

$100,000 for the head of an old cartoonist?
To some cartoonist's, this would be considered as success.

 

[mcteethinator]

Here we go:

Deuteronomy chapter 13 calls for the murder of false prophets.
Exxodus 22:18 says to murder witches

Amputations and slaughter of unbelievers: God is acting through the Muslims when they do this

• 8:12-13,17 Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." This because they contended against God and His Apostle: If any contend against God and His Apostle, God is strict in punishment. ... It is not ye who slew them; it was God

The importance of military fighting for Islam

• 2:216 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not.
• 2:217 They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter.
• 4:84 Then fight in God's cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers.

8:38-39 Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them). And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily God doth see all that they do.

9:5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

9:29 Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya [tribute] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Will update with more as I come across them.

I made a very good post explaining the violent verses in the Qur'an a while back. Here you go

 

[Calif_Musk]

I think he should be brought to court for sabotaging. He must have realized what his cartoon would mean for Swedish companies. In saying this, I don't discuss or judge the reactions, just note that they were predictable.

so you would give in to extremists? and essentially change the law to suit their beliefs?
No matter how silly he is, he has not broken any laws.

 

[Peace4all]

Although I really don’t support the violent actions taken by some Muslims I really do believe that Vilks is an idiot and I pity him. For 1400 years drawings of the holy prophet and god- even in the most beautiful form- have been strictly forbidden. Then you have some random Viliks whatshisname-the poor fool- that decided that he would like draw the prophet as a terrorist. Unless you’re a Muslim, you wouldn’t understand the value of the holy prophet and the level of respect Muslims hold for him. I really didn’t expect anything less

 

[Calif_Musk]

Although I really don’t support the violent actions taken by some Muslims I really do believe that Vilks is an idiot and I pity him. For 1400 years drawings of the holy prophet and god- even in the most beautiful form- have been strictly forbidden. Then you have some random Viliks whatshisname-the poor fool- that decided that he would like draw the prophet as a terrorist. Unless you’re a Muslim, you wouldn’t understand the value of the holy prophet and the level of respect Muslims hold for him. I really didn’t expect anything less

Ok Vilks did not draw Muhammed as a terrorist. He drew his head on the body of a dog. This is a separate issue from the original Danish cartoons.
And although I personally think he is silly, the saddest thing is that it is at all possible to provoke such heinous actions with a drawing. Especially one so childish.
It is not Vilks that is the problem. It is those who would force their extreme views on others, and use violence, or the threat of such in order to do it.

Part of me wishes that EVERY cartoonist in EVERY country would publish similar cartoons and every newspaper and every magazine. Then we would see the 'Truth' - There is NOTHING in life which should be free from criticism. There is NOTHING which should be held sacred for those who don't believe it isn't.

I personally wouldn't do it, but from experience the only reason why people like Vilks do so is BECAUSE of the reaction they'll get.

My message to Islam is to grow up and learn to ignore it. You do that and it usually goes away.

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

These kinds of posts frustrate me… please go get a copy of the Quran and read all those quotes in context… instead of taking out snippets and reinforcing your stereotypes…

Islamic apologists are always saying that such verses are read out of context. When I quote an entire section, then I am told that since I don't read Arabic, I am still not getting it. The fact of the matter is, that the Q'uran does say these things, and there are many folks out there who whole heartedly beleive in these things and are acting on them. I guess the Islamists out there, many who do speak and read Arabic, and many who were educated in the madrassas are also mistaken?

Maybe its time somebody fessed up to the FACT that both the Bible and the Q'uran have some very violent and disturbing orders for its followers, and maybe, just maybe, it is time that we stopped living according to books that are thousands of years old? We don't perform surgery based on medical texts from thousands of years ago, nor do we operate our space program based on the science from the dark ages, so why must we be stuck with violent and disturbing edicts from ancient books?

B.

 

[Calif_Musk]

Religion is all based on weakness and laziness. It's the throwing in of the towel on the mysteries of life. It's saying, I can't make head or tail out of any of this ****, so I'll just go with what everyone is doing. If they're all getting down on their knees, eating a cookie and believing it's the body of Christ, then I will too. If they're all wrapping themselves in leather thongs, covering their heads with beanies, and rocking back and forth, that's what I'll do. If everybody else is bowing to Mecca six times a day, I guess that's what I must do, too. This is the behavior of lemmings following other lemmings off the edge of the cliff. There is absolutely no difference between praying to Jesus, praying to Jehovah, bowing to Mecca, or lighting incense to Krishna, than there is sieg heiling to Hitler, blindly following Pol Pot into the killing fields, or chopping up Tutsis with machetes. It's all called thoughtless behavior. It's part of our job as humans to think about and consider our place here on the planet and our position amongst all these other people. The second you abnegate this responsibility, you've fallen into an evil trap. As the writer Harlan Ellison has said, "We're all the same person under different skins," and that's truly a holy thought. All the religions on Earth want to point out is that we are all different, and we of our religion are better than those other unholy blasphemers. That's evil. And that is what all religion at its core is all about. Us and them. We're holy, they're infidels. A word religions seem to really like, particularly the Jews is "tradition," which is the handing down of beliefs or customs from one generation to the next. This is another form of acceptance without questioning. For several hundred years an American tradition was, "The only good Indian is a dead Indian." A good old Australian tradition was "the Abo-hunt," where they tracked down and shot the Aboriginal people for amusement. A good old European tradition was the pogrom, where, if your luck had turned sour, go kill some Jews. The Russians loved this tradition, but the French and Germans thought it was a pretty swell tradition, too. And it's always been a tradition of the Serbs to hate the Croats, the Hutus to hate the Tutsis, whites to hate blacks, Christians to hate Jews, Jews to hate the Palestinians, Hindus to hate the Muslims, and Muslims to hate everybody. Well, let's just thank God for tradition, sing songs in its praise and dance the Hora. Karl Marx said that "Religion is the opiate of the masses," and he couldn't have been more correct. Religion is a drug that encourages you to not think for yourself, and, in my very humble opinion, is much worse and far more deadly than heroin, pot, cocaine, and alcohol all put together. None of these other drugs breeds contempt for other people, but all religions do in one way or another. Religion is the insidious evil of our planet, and the sooner people start to wake up to that the sooner we can get on to bigger, more important issues like peace and goodwill toward others.

This sort of sums it up for me. sorry for the lack of breaks its the browser.

 

[mcteethinator]

Islamic apologists are always saying that such verses are read out of context. When I quote an entire section, then I am told that since I don't read Arabic, I am still not getting it. The fact of the matter is, that the Q'uran does say these things, and there are many folks out there who whole heartedly beleive in these things and are acting on them. I guess the Islamists out there, many who do speak and read Arabic, and many who were educated in the madrassas are also mistaken?

Maybe its time somebody fessed up to the FACT that both the Bible and the Q'uran have some very violent and disturbing orders for its followers, and maybe, just maybe, it is time that we stopped living according to books that are thousands of years old? We don't perform surgery based on medical texts from thousands of years ago, nor do we operate our space program based on the science from the dark ages, so why must we be stuck with violent and disturbing edicts from ancient books?

B.

I linked to this in the other post but you seemed to have coveniently missed it.