doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
All this while I thought that atheists had better things to do with their time.
Nah. Since life is a meaningless void full of desperation and despair ending in nothing, why bother?
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All this while I thought that atheists had better things to do with their time.
doppelgänger;819767 said:Nah. Since life is a meaningless void full of desperation and despair ending in nothing, why bother?
All this while I thought that atheists had better things to do with their time.
Yeah... We should really be more productive. I know! Let's all start harrassing theists!
“If God does not exist, then everything is permitted.”
Can pigs come up with the idea of a God or immortality?
Who is to say all life is meaningless and ultimately absurd. I and most Atheists never claim this. Life is full of wonder and enjoyment.1. "If all of life is meaningless, and ultimately absurd , why bother to march straight forward, why stand in the queue as though life as a whole makes sense?" Francis Schaeffer, The God Who Is There
Merely because life is finite does not make it meaningless. Consider a book. We read and enjoy books, yet they ultimately come to an end. Are we to say that all books (that would include the Bible, Qur'an, etc.) are meaningless? It is about the journey and experience; so is life.2. If everyone completely passes out of existence when they die, what ultimate meaning has life? Even if a man's life is important because of his influence on others or by his effect on the course of history, of what ultimate significance is that if there is no immortality and all other lives, events, and even history itself is ultimately meaningless?
It is an ultimate difference of existence and non-existence.3. Suppose the universe had never existed. Apart form God, what ultimate difference would that make?
We are different because we walk upright, think on a higher level, and have a higher capacity for emotion.4. In a universe without God or immortality, how is mankind ultimately different from a swarm of mosquitoes or a barnyard of pigs?
The majority of us want lives where we can live life in peace and evolve as people. When someone disrupts this shared goal, we deal with him.5. What viable basis exists for justice or law if man is nothing but a sophisticated, programmed machine?
Read my response to Question 2.6. Why does research, discovery, diplomacy, art, music, sacrifice, compassion, feelings of love, or affectionate and caring relationships mean anything if it all ultimately comes to naught anyway?
Billy Graham is kind and loves people whereas Saddam Hussein hates many people.7.Without absolute morals, what ultimate difference is there between Saddam Hussein and Billy Graham?
"Are you telling me, that the only reason you don't steal and rape... and murder, is that you're frightened of God?" -- Richard Dawkins8. If there is no immortality, why shouldn't all things be permitted?(Dostoyevsky)
Who is to say morality is a relative social construct. Morality is a personal manifestation of the will. My will and many peoples wills want to see people live happy lives. We will fight those who are malevolent.9. If morality is only a relative social construct, on what basis could or should anyone ever move to interfere with cultures that practice apartheid, female circumcision, cannibalism, or ethnic cleansing?
Who is to say life is fair? Why does it have to be? Merely because I do not believe everything is peaches and cream (perfect) does not make my belief system any less valid. You wish the Universe is perfect and choose to believe it is.10. If there is no God, on what basis is there any meaning or hope for fairness, comfort, or better times?
I have accepted that we exist without a predefined purpose. That is why we make our own purpose. We love, we laugh, we enjoy ourselves. What is meaningless about that?11. Without a personal Creator-God, how are you anything other than the coincidental, purposeless miscarriage of nature, spinning round and round on a lonely planet in the blackness of space for just a little while before you and all memory of your futile, pointless, meaningless life finally blinks out forever in the endless darkness?
I like Zeno's answers too.1. "If all of life is meaningless, and ultimately absurd , why bother to march straight forward, why stand in the queue as though life as a whole makes sense?" —Francis Schaeffer, The God Who Is There
Well for starters life is not meaningless. Our consciousness prevents it from being meaningless. Humans find meaning, it is just what we do. The natural beauty of a sunset can leave you in awe regardless of your belief in some intelligence behind it. Just because something occurs due to a natural process does not render it meaningless. Take a hurricane for instance, its origins may be natural and "meaningless" but would you call it's effects meaningless? Meaning is defined by those who experience it. As for marching forward, I'm not sure what this means really. But in any case I feel progression makes everyone's life that much more enjoyable. Many cultures "march forward" in many different ways.
2. If everyone completely passes out of existence when they die, what ultimate meaning has life? Even if a man's life is important because of his influence on others or by his effect on the course of history, of what ultimate significance is that if there is no immortality and all other lives, events, and even history itself is ultimately meaningless?
Again with the meaninglessness? Well I don't really see how not being immortal makes all historical events meaningless. I will propose an answer nonetheless. Regardless of our origin, even atheists recognize that the human capacity for cognition, emotion, and the finding of meaning is special. The meaning of life is the meaning you find in life. I believe this gives the meaning that much more significance because you yourself searched it out and reconciled it. You affect those around you and should take meaning in the people you care about and the goals you wish to accomplish. Atheism ≠ Nihilism.
3. Suppose the universe had never existed. Apart form God, what ultimate difference would that make?
Besides all the art, beauty, and meaning humans have derived? Nothing.
4. In a universe without God or immortality, how is mankind ultimately different from a swarm of mosquitoes or a barnyard of pigs?
Can pigs write music? Paint a painting? Can pigs travel into outer space? Can pigs come up with the idea of a God or immortality?
Anyway, I think there are plenty of things that make us special.
5. What viable basis exists for justice or law if man is nothing but a sophisticated, programmed machine?
Well logic is in the "programmed machine" (for some of us ). So is altruism - it aides our survival. Am I to derive from this that the only reason theists don't rampantly break the law and forgo justice is because big brother is up there keeping tabs? Wouldn't that be like saying the only reason not to commit rape, murder, or theft is because you're going to go to jail?
6. Why does research, discovery, diplomacy, art, music, sacrifice, compassion, feelings of love, or affectionate and caring relationships mean anything if it all ultimately comes to naught anyway?
Isn't all the research, discovery, diplomacy, art, and music going to come to naught when the worthy are raptured into heaven? If this world is just a testing ground, then all of our research and discovery is meaningless when compared to the divine understanding gained after we pass from this world into the next.
As for sacrifice, compassion, feelings of love, and caring relationships - how are these meaningless? They all hold deep meaning to me and just about every non-theist I've encountered. The meaning is what you derive from all of this - it is the reason you do those things. Sacrifices which are done on someone's own accord and not as a ticket to heaven are more meaningful to me.
7.Without absolute morals, what ultimate difference is there between Saddam Hussein and Billy Graham?
Some Gods say it is immoral to eat lobster. Some say that moral justice is to remove a thief's hand. Some say it's immoral to worship other, more tempting deities. Some say jealousy is immoral.
People who I would consider "good" come from many different moral backgrounds. As for the common denominators among the major Gods, I think those are derived through logic, reason, and humanity's altruistic nature.
The difference between Saddam Hussein and Billy Graham is their impact on humanity and the lesson's learned from them.
8. If there is no immortality, why shouldn't all things be permitted?(Dostoyevsky)
Technically, all things are permitted....you just might end up getting punished for some of them. Wouldn't this be better stated as "why should some things be punished?"
Anyway logic and reason can whisk this question away. I can find plenty of reasons why murder shouldn't be permitted that have absolutely nothing to do with immortality.
9. If morality is only a relative social construct, on what basis could or should anyone ever move to interfere with cultures that practice apartheid, female circumcision, cannibalism, or ethnic cleansing?
This question is kind of shooting itself in the foot.
Most of these horrific examples are carried out for religious reasons. In fact they show why we shouldn't derive our morality from religion. Morality should be derived from our ability to reason and the knowledge we have obtained.
10. If there is no God, on what basis is there any meaning or hope for fairness, comfort, or better times?
I'm a lot happier I'm alive now and not in the 1300's. Society will progress regardless of God's existence. Even with God standing in the way (gay marriage) society will still progress towards fairness, equality, and better times.
11. Without a personal Creator-God, how are you anything other than the coincidental, purposeless miscarriage of nature, spinning round and round on a lonely planet in the blackness of space for just a little while before you and all memory of your futile, pointless, meaningless life finally blinks out forever in the endless darkness?
All those excessive adjectives make my life all the more special. All the more reason to appreciate it.