Runt
Well-Known Member
I love how he apoligizes in caps for writing in caps...roli said:SORRY FOR THE CAPITAL LETTERS i FORGOT THE POLICY, NO OFFENSE INTENDED
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I love how he apoligizes in caps for writing in caps...roli said:SORRY FOR THE CAPITAL LETTERS i FORGOT THE POLICY, NO OFFENSE INTENDED
Even the giant sequoia[nature] are finite! And can be destroyed.Words precept, words. My bible does not include words. Words are finite, and can be destroyed. God is beyond words, concepts, and ideas. God is therefore seen more in nature, than in a book.
The reason why these verses are different are because they are supposed to be different. The operative words at the beginning of Revelation 7:9 being "After this I looked" and in the NWT: "After these things I saw". In otherwords, when the Apostle John wrote "After", he means exactly that - after - in otherwords, two seperate and different entitities. The 144,000 refered to in Revelation is much different to the "Great multitude" or "Great Crowd that no man could number" mentioned in Revelation 7:9. What are their symbolic differences and what do they represent? I'll get to the 144,000 later - but first, I'll explain what is meant by the "Great crowd".Ronald said:Here is the 144,000, 12k from the 12 tribes, sometimes called the remnant of Israel.
Clearly it is people of Israel.
Re.7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
But to follow up is this.
Re 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands
A Multitude NO MAN Can Number!!!
144,000 plus! But brilliant men can justify their every inconsistancey! (Living Bible)
are you saying the 'corners' of the earth was literal as we read it today and that the bible taught a flat earth?If Revelation 7 is to be taken literally, there would only be 144,000 Jewish male virgins taken from a square shaped earth that are now in heaven worshipping a sheep.
Around 8000 today partake of the emblems of Jesus mentioned in Matthew 26 and Mark 14 - however that figure could be much lower due to false proclaimers. Most of these people are eldery people - so they cannot go on for a few more decades at the most - therefore, nor can this system. The great tribulation and Armaggedon (Rev 16:16) will most probably come in our lifetimes. Most people dispute this, however Luke 12:40 says: "YOU also, keep ready, because at an hour that YOU do not think likely the Son of man is coming." Just like 9/11 came out of nowhere (as bad as it was), so will the end of this wicked system of things. Watch this space....carrdero said:WitnessOfJah, do you K(NOW) how many of the 144,000 are left in the physical and can you share this information with us?
No so much as in the fact that there are some people who are just trying to grasp the understanding of the 144,000 and then trying to understand why Jehovah Wittnesss believe the way they do. I am sure that this is one of the reasons why you have arrived to Religious Forums.WitnessOfJah writes: Out of pure observation, I have noticed that pretty much everybody in this thread (apart from a few) is condemning the fact that the 144,000 are the only selected ones going to heaven - but cannot explain a feasible answer why that figure exists in Revelation.
WitnessOfJah writes: the Apostle John was given this vison of Revelation in which the 144,000 had special meaning.
WitnessOfJah writes: Why would God give the Apostle John a "Revelation" (i.e. prophecies) of a physical state of Isreal that went back thousands of years before? It does'nt make sense, does it? The only realistic answer could be that it actaully refered to a symbolic state of Israel that refered to the future.
WitnessOfJah writes: I have personally have had the priviledge of meeting a few of the 144,000 - and they truly are special people!
SOGFPP said:If Revelation 7 is to be taken literally, there would only be 144,000 Jewish male virgins taken from a square shaped earth that are now in heaven worshipping a sheep. This would mean that Peter (not a virgin), the Blessed Mother (not a male), and Charles Taze Russell (not a Jew) could not be in heaven.
Reading one number literally while taking the rest of a book symbolically is not sound exegesis. Beyond this, we see in Revelation 14 that the 144,000 stand before the 24 elders from Revelation 4:4. This at least brings the grand total to 144,024 people. But, the Scriptures indicate that there are still more to come. Revelation 7:9 speaks of a countless multitude before the throne, which is in heaven (Rev. 14:2-3).
Still in the book of Revelation, we read that all those with their name in the book of life are in heaven (Rev. 21:27), while all whose names are not in the book of life are thrown into the pool of fire (Rev. 20:15). There is no third "earthly" class. Jesus reiterates this, and never speaks of two flocks. He has one bride, whose "reward is great in heaven" (Luke 6:23). Paul even exhorts the Christian community, calling them to remember, "As for us, our citizenship exists in the heavens" (Phil. 3:20).
The JWs attempt to use verses such as Psalms 37:29 as evidence that the just are to inherit the land forever, which is earth. In context, this refers to inheriting the promised land as a sign of Gods blessing in the Old Testament. But, Hebrews 11:8-16 indicates that there is a homeland better than the promised land on earth, and this is the heavenly one for those who die in faith.
The Old Testament patriarchs "publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land . . . they are earnestly seeking a place of their own. . . . But now they are reaching out for a better [place], that is, one belonging to heaven. . . . God . . . has made a city ready for them. . . .These [OT men and women] did not get the [fulfillment of the] promise . . . as God foresaw something better for us" (Heb. 11:13-16,39-40). Even the footnote of the NWT makes clear that the "city" spoken of in these verses is the heavenly Jerusalem mentioned in Hebrews 12:22 and Revelation 21:2.
But, the Watchtower still maintains that no one that lived before Christ will ever enter heaven. "The apostle Paul in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews names a long list of faithful men who died before the crucifixion of the Lord. . . . These can never be a part of the heavenly class" (Millions Now Living, p. 89).
If you knowingly spoke with a "saved in God's kingdom individual", one of 144,000 persons; then you must also know that this saved person must have had also passed through "great tribulation"[Revelation 7:14. So when next you have discourse with such a "saved individual", you may want to query him/her re what was the nature of the "Great Tribulation" through which him/her passed.I have personally have had the priviledge of meeting a few of the 144,000 - and they truly are special people! When you walk up to them and talk to them, you can sense a feeling of something "extraordinary" and "special" - they are not normal like every other human being. When you ask them about how they know that they know who they are, they say "it is like knowing whether you are a male or female" - it is that clear! They themselves do not doubt whatsoever who they are - they have been chosen by God and factually know.
If I REMEMBER CORRECTLY the apostle John was a prisoner on
Patmos around 96 C.E. where Relevations was written. I also heard that he was heavily medicated during his imprisonment.
Another possibility to consider would BE how do we K(NOW) that the apostle John was actually inspired by GOD to write the book of Revelations? You have to keep in mind that there are some people who are not devoted to faith.
This in no ranking system at all! The 144,000 have their own reward - which is going to heaven. But ones of the earthly class also have their own wonderful reward - of being in a beautiful paradise earth with everlasting life with no death, disease, violence, and a place where we can worship God and rejoice together! After all, why did Jehovah God create this perfect earth in the first place? Because he intentionally wanted us to inhabit it - like he did for Adam and Eve before they sinned. Some descriptions of what the earthly paradise will be like from the Bible:I think the problem you might encounter with this doctrine is that some people will have a problem with Jehovahs rank and file system or the fact that Jehovah chooses certain people for certain advantages. This concern may stem from when we were youths and possibly overlooked for playground activities, its disheartening to say the least. There are also many people who take their REALationship with GOD very seriously and through their particular faith cannot wait to return home to heaven and BE with GOD. The ministry of Jehovahs Witnesses can be challenging but it is important to REMEMBER that every time you approach any individual you are approaching an individual who does not have or live by the same Bible as you do.
precept said:If you knowingly spoke with a "saved in God's kingdom individual", one of 144,000 persons; then you must also know that this saved person must have had also passed through "great tribulation"[Revelation 7:14. So when next you have discourse with such a "saved individual", you may want to query him/her re what was the nature of the "Great Tribulation" through which him/her passed.
precept said:precept
Read your own quote! If, as you say, "Revelation 7:14 is not referring to the 144,000 alone" - "and never says it does".Revelation 7:14 is not referring to the 144,000 alone - and never says it does.