16 Step Program

[Geoff-Allen]

The 16-step empowerment model is a wholistic approach to overcoming addiction that views people in their wholeness– mind, body and spirit. A fundamental basis of this model is flexibility and an openness which leads to continually ask: What works? Who does it work for? and How can we help it work better? It encourages people to be continually open to new information and not to become trapped in dogmatic teachings. At its core, this model is based on love not fear; internal control not external authoritarianism; affirmation not deflation; and trust in the ability of people to find their own healing path when given education, support, hope and choices.

Here's the full 16-steps -

http://charlottekasl.com/16-step-program/

Enjoy!

 

[Kapalika]

The 16-step empowerment model is a wholistic approach to overcoming addiction that views people in their wholeness– mind, body and spirit. A fundamental basis of this model is flexibility and an openness which leads to continually ask: What works? Who does it work for? and How can we help it work better? It encourages people to be continually open to new information and not to become trapped in dogmatic teachings. At its core, this model is based on love not fear; internal control not external authoritarianism; affirmation not deflation; and trust in the ability of people to find their own healing path when given education, support, hope and choices.

Here's the full 16-steps -

http://charlottekasl.com/16-step-program/

Enjoy!

I realized at one point in my life I couldn't hold my liquor and was drinking a little too often so I had a 3 step program.

1. Remove the people in my life who were drinking way too much all the time.

2. Abstain for as long as possible, spot excuses and remove myself if people were talking about drinking.

3. After abstaining long enough and establishing total self control, create new limits, and remind myself of my past shanagins if I get tempted to go past them.

It's worked out for me. My motivations were multifacted but the silver bullet was drinking wouldn't play nice with hormone replacement therapy and I valued my health much more.

From that link, when it says stuff like:

We come to believe that God/Goddess/Universe/Great Spirit/Higher Power awakens the healing wisdom

I just can't get behind that :s Honestly most of these 16 steps have more to do with religion than quiting a bad habit or something that's becoming a psychological addiction. It's one thing, in my opinion, to incorporate your religion into why you quit (hell it's one of the reasons I did). It's another to lay out a guide for others to quit that make it about religion let alone your take.

 

[PureX]

So far, Alcoholics Anonymous has the best track record helping people to overcome their addiction to alcohol. And the 12-step program they devised has been used by addicts of all kinds, with some success, throughout the near 100 years since AA's inception. If anyone here is experiencing difficulties with alcohol, I suggest exploring AA as a solution. It's free, it's everywhere, and it works.

However, there are other methods, and if one of them works for you, that's really all that matters. There are religious recovery groups, non-religious recovery groups, (AA is not affiliated with any religion, and there are atheist/agniostic AA groups for those who cannot abide even the inference of a "higher power"). There are personal moderation methods, there are drugs one can tale that make one ill if they drink alcohol, and so on.

Alcoholism is a serious and potentially deadly illness, so whatever works for those who are afflicted is welcomed by those who know how serious and debilitating this addiction, is.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

1. We affirm we have the power to take charge of our lives

I already like it better than AA. It's pretty much basic psychology 101 that the best way to get someone on track to making improvements is tell them they can, not tell them they are powerless to do so. That mentality tends to lead to things such as learned helplessness.
The only one I really don't care for is number 2, because those who are non-theist and do not believe in such things should not be expected to start believing as a prerequisite for treatment. If anything, religious/spiritual aspects should be omitted as official steps as they are unnecessary and not equally applicable to all. It implies your efforts will be futile if you don't believe. Such a mentality, IMO, can only manifest itself in a society where most people believe atheists are inherently immoral and unworthy of trust. Religion does play an important role in the lives of many. But not everyone. And the assumptions that the many who feel they need it should not be projected onto those who do just fine without.

So far, Alcoholics Anonymous has the best track record helping people to overcome their addiction to alcohol.

It's actually not really all that great, and tends to work for those who are most dedicated and involved with it. There program is filled with "steps" that have no scientific backing or validity, and just unnecessary, such as having to admit to a higher power and abstinence for life. About 2/3 of those enrolled drop out after a few months, and those most involved with the organization and attracted to its spiritual aspects are the ones who are helped by AA. "AA and other programs based on the traditional disease model are far from successful in treating vast numbers of alcoholics." (Lilienfeld, Lynn, Ruscio & Beyerstein, 2010.)

 

[PureX]

It's actually not really all that great, and tends to work for those who are most dedicated and involved with it. There program is filled with "steps" that have no scientific backing or validity, and just unnecessary, such as having to admit to a higher power and abstinence for life. About 2/3 of those enrolled drop out after a few months, and those most involved with the organization and attracted to its spiritual aspects are the ones who are helped by AA. "AA and other programs based on the traditional disease model are far from successful in treating vast numbers of alcoholics." (Lilienfeld, Lynn, Ruscio & Beyerstein, 2010.)

The 12 steps of AA were created by alcoholics, through trial and error, according to what worked the best, for most of them. It's not a scientific program, trying to solve a scientific problem. It's a group of humans trying to solve a human problem, through their collective efforts and experience.

The stats on recovery from alcoholism are dismal because alcoholism is a difficult disease to recover from. Nevertheless, AA still has the best track record. And it's free to anyone who wants it. So all I'm saying is that if you think you have a problem with alcoholism, be aware that AA has the best and longest standing track record. Unless, perhaps, you only want to pretend that you want to get sober. Then try one of those 'do-it-yourself' programs, that allow you to drink while you try to "cut down". Of course, if you could really do that, you wouldn't be an alcoholic in the first place.

 

[Kapalika]

So far, Alcoholics Anonymous has the best track record helping people to overcome their addiction to alcohol. And the 12-step program they devised has been used by addicts of all kinds, with some success, throughout the near 100 years since AA's inception. If anyone here is experiencing difficulties with alcohol, I suggest exploring AA as a solution. It's free, it's everywhere, and it works.

However, there are other methods, and if one of them works for you, that's really all that matters. There are religious recovery groups, non-religious recovery groups, (AA is not affiliated with any religion, and there are atheist/agniostic AA groups for those who cannot abide even the inference of a "higher power"). There are personal moderation methods, there are drugs one can tale that make one ill if they drink alcohol, and so on.

Alcoholism is a serious and potentially deadly illness, so whatever works for those who are afflicted is welcomed by those who know how serious and debilitating this addiction, is.

That's just another religion one, but at least this 16 step one empowers the person instead of making them dependent on AA.

AA is why I don't think that religion and treatment should overlap. It becomes exploitative. I worked with two ladies in AA once and all they did was talk about AA and their past addictions despite being clean for a good while. It was like a cult.

 

[Altfish]

The 16-step empowerment model is a wholistic approach to overcoming addiction that views people in their wholeness– mind, body and spirit. A fundamental basis of this model is flexibility and an openness which leads to continually ask: What works? Who does it work for? and How can we help it work better? It encourages people to be continually open to new information and not to become trapped in dogmatic teachings. At its core, this model is based on love not fear; internal control not external authoritarianism; affirmation not deflation; and trust in the ability of people to find their own healing path when given education, support, hope and choices.

Here's the full 16-steps -

http://charlottekasl.com/16-step-program/

Enjoy!

I got as far as point 2 and gave up.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The 12 steps of AA were created by alcoholics, through trial and error, according to what worked the best, for most of them. It's not a scientific program, trying to solve a scientific problem. It's a group of humans trying to solve a human problem, through their collective efforts and experience.

From the start, telling people they are helpless is a way to condition them that they are. Most drop out of the program. God is not required, but they say he is. Polio was a human problem, but the science of medicine has eradicated it for those who are vaccinated, allowing multiple generations now to not grow up knowing polio, it's crippling effects, and iron lungs.

The stats on recovery from alcoholism are dismal because alcoholism is a difficult disease to recover from. Nevertheless, AA still has the best track record.

Science does not support that claim. It doesn't support the idea they are helpless (but warns of the counter-productive potential of creating such a mentality), it doesn't support the idea they have to turn to a "higher power," it doesn't support the idea of mandated life-long abstinence, and it doesn't support the claims that AA is widely successful. From a treatment perspective, the "disease model" isn't that effective. And it's also hard to study anything other than AA/similar 12 step programs, because there aren't many other options because people have bought into their ideas of what must be done hook, line, and sinker, for a very long time now, and it's been adopted by so many institutions as the default.

AA is why I don't think that religion and treatment should overlap. It becomes exploitative. I worked with two ladies in AA once and all they did was talk about AA and their past addictions despite being clean for a good while. It was like a cult.

Science does support the idea that those who are most involved with the program and attracted to the spiritual aspects are those it works best for. Everybody else--presumable the 2/3 who drop out shortly after beginning and probably aren't counted towards their overall success/failure rate (survivor bias, and all that)--it just doesn't seem to be working.

 

[PureX]

That's just another religion one, but at least this 16 step one empowers the person instead of making them dependent on AA.

I got sober through the help of AA and have stayed sober for 25 years. And I am not "dependent on AA". I have not been to an AA meeting in many years. I would go back if I felt like drinking, again, but I don't, so I haven't.

The "dependency" you're referring to is really just asking for and accepting the help of others, who know how, when we can't get or stay sober on our own. I don't see the problem with that.

AA is why I don't think that religion and treatment should overlap. It becomes exploitative

AA has nothing to do with religion. It advises people to seek a "higher power" or "a power greater than ourselves", which can easily be interpreted to mean the group: i.e., those who have already learned how to get and stayed sober. As they have managed to do what the incoming alcoholic has not been able to do on his/her own. The "higher power" doesn't have to be "god". Though for most people on Earth, calling it "god" is not a problem. Especially when they are facing the living hell of an alcohol or drug addiction.

I worked with two ladies in AA once and all they did was talk about AA and their past addictions despite being clean for a good while. It was like a cult.

Well, if you were diagnosed with terminal cancer, and were facing a long, painful, lonely and humiliating death, and then you were given a way of circumventing that fate, I think you'd probably be pretty 'taken by it', too. Don't you? Maybe you should try to understand the horror show of a life those women were experiencing, and facing as active alcoholics, before you condemn them for being so pleased and grateful to have found a way out.

 

[PureX]

From the start, telling people they are helpless is a way to condition them that they are.

Dude, no one has to tell the alcoholic walking into an AA meeting that they are helpless. Please believe me when I tell you that they already know it, or they wouldn't be there. No one chooses AA first. We try everything under the sun to moderate our drinking, first, to no avail. Then we try to quit on our own, and fail miserably at that, too. And finally we realize that drinking is destroying our lives, and taking from us everything we ever loved and cared about, yet we STILL CAN'T STOP! And we don't know why. Unless ... we really are an alcoholic. That's when we finally go to an AA meeting.

No one has ever had to preach helplessness and hopelessness to an alcoholic. Believe me, it's built right into the word "addiction".

Most drop out of the program. God is not required, but they say he is.

Most people drop out of the program because they are alcoholics, and they still want to drink even though they know it's destroying their lives. That's how addictions work in the human brain. And that's why people can't just stop of their own volition. AA can't "fix" an alcoholic's brain. The alcoholic has to be willing to ignore his own brain and do whatever it takes to get and stay sober. Not everyone can do that. Not everyone will do that. And so they will die in their disease.

Only 2 out of every 32 alcoholics ever even ask for help. The rest will die in their disease. And only half of those who seek AA's help will manage to stay sober past the first year. I am one of those few, and I am keenly aware that 31 other alcoholics like myself will suffer and die as alcoholics. (And will cause those who love them no end of pain and frustration.)

Polio was a human problem, but the science of medicine has eradicated it for those who are vaccinated, allowing multiple generations now to not grow up knowing polio, it's crippling effects, and iron lungs.

Well, science has no cure for alcohol and drug addiction, so far. And until it finds one, most addicts and alcoholics are going to die in and from their addictions. However, some, like me, will get a reprieve, if they are willing to let those who have found a way out, before them, help them to find a way out, too. Are you actually going to object to this? Just because they talk about their "higher power" as god, and follow a "program" you don't understand?

Science does not support that claim. It doesn't support the idea they are helpless (but warns of the counter-productive potential of creating such a mentality), it doesn't support the idea they have to turn to a "higher power," it doesn't support the idea of mandated life-long abstinence, and it doesn't support the claims that AA is widely successful.

Science doesn't have anything to say about it. It has discovered no cause, and it has discovered no cure. And until it does, I see no reason to pay it much mind.

And it's also hard to study anything other than AA/similar 12 step programs, because there aren't many other options because people have bought into their ideas of what must be done hook, line, and sinker, for a very long time now, and it's been adopted by so many institutions as the default.

There have been a great many other proposed methods of dealing with alcoholism and drug addictions, but none of them have worked very well. New wonder drugs are touted to be the solution every ten years or so, and then they vanish into obscurity because they don't work, either.

Addictions are a very tough nut to track because they're genetically predisposed, but not exclusively. They're 'taught', but also not entirely, or exclusively. They're a habitualized structural phenomena in the brain, but that we can't map, or change, except by deliberate "reprogramming". My own recovery required persistent effort on the part of three different entities over several years. And it was probably about 5 years before my mind actually worked "normally" and reasonably. Science, alone, is not going to solve the problem of addiction because it's not exclusively a physical problem. It's also a behavioral problem, and a 'thinking problem'.

 

[Kapalika]

I got sober through the help of AA and have stayed sober for 25 years. And I am not "dependent on AA". I have not been to an AA meeting in many years. I would go back if I felt like drinking, again, but I don't, so I haven't.

The "dependency" you're referring to is really just asking for and accepting the help of others, who know how, when we can't get or stay sober on our own. I don't see the problem with that.
AA has nothing to do with religion. It advises people to seek a "higher power" or "a power greater than ourselves", which can easily be interpreted to mean the group: i.e., those who have already learned how to get and stayed sober. As they have managed to do what the incoming alcoholic has not been able to do on his/her own. The "higher power" doesn't have to be "god". Though for most people on Earth, calling it "god" is not a problem. Especially when they are facing the living hell of an alcohol or drug addiction.
Well, if you were diagnosed with terminal cancer, and were facing a long, painful, lonely and humiliating death, and then you were given a way of circumventing that fate, I think you'd probably be pretty 'taken by it', too. Don't you? Maybe you should try to understand the horror show of a life those women were experiencing, and facing as active alcoholics, before you condemn them for being so pleased and grateful to have found a way out.

I grew up with someone who drank a 24 pack a day. He also later got liver cancer. Also a deceased family member actually worked with AA as she worked in the psychiatric field and was a recovered alcoholic herself and she told me about how it worked and I had also done research on it myself at one point in addition to conversations with people in the program. I'm not just talking completely out of my butt lol

I have a problem with, the higher power and powerlessness thing. I mean replace "higher power" with Jesus and see that "powerlessness" is basically "sinful, can't help it due to sin nature" and then trusting in that higher power is "salvation". That's why I have a problem with it. To me it seems just like that if not code for that. And so it seems like a religion to me.

You are right though, in my opinion, that having a support system is good. I just don't see why someone can't do that without all the baggage. That's all really my point is. I'm not wanting to debate, I just kind of feel strongly about the subject. My apologies if it seemed that way.

 

[PureX]

I grew up with someone who drank a 24 pack a day. He also later got liver cancer. Also a deceased family member actually worked with AA as she worked in the psychiatric field and was a recovered alcoholic herself and she told me about how it worked and I had also done research on it myself at one point in addition to conversations with people in the program. I'm not just talking completely out of my butt lol

I have a problem with, the higher power and powerlessness thing. I mean replace "higher power" with Jesus and see that "powerlessness" is basically "sinful, can't help it due to sin nature" and then trusting in that higher power is "salvation". That's why I have a problem with it. To me it seems just like that if not code for that. And so it seems like a religion to me.

You are right though, in my opinion, that having a support system is good. I just don't see why someone can't do that without all the baggage. That's all really my point is. I'm not wanting to debate, I just kind of feel strongly about the subject. My apologies if it seemed that way.

I find it amazingly arrogant that you would apply "your problem" with the idea of god to a program that has the singular intent of helping alcoholics recover from alcoholism, and thereby save their lives, and in many cases mitigate the suffering of all those who love them, too. Especially when there are no other more effective programs available to them.

Keep in mind that most alcoholics, like most people, generally, believe in a god of some sort. And in fact, many active alcoholics use their idea of god, fate, luck, etc., and the specter of a malicious and deliberate tormentor, as an ever-present excuse to drink. So it makes complete sense that an alcoholic recovery program would have to address this issue, and use it to help the alcoholic recover from alcoholism, if possible. Whether that aligns with your personal animosity toward theism, and helplessness, or not, is irrelevant. AA has one function and one function, only: that is to help the alcoholic get and stay sober. And the ideas and practices the program uses to do that have been determined by 100 years of experience at doing exactly that. AA is not trying to "promote helplessness", nor is it trying to "promote god-dependence". It's trying to help alcoholics stop drinking and recover their what sanity they can before their obsession with alcohol kills them, and harms everyone around them as it does so.

The truth is that by definition, we are powerless to control our addictions. If we were not powerless to control them, we would not call them an addiction. They would simply be a bad habit that's difficult to break. But addictions are not "bad habits". They are an irrational and uncontrollable obsession that will, and in the vast majority of instances, do, kill us.

I understand your confusion. It's impossible for someone who has not faced the insanity of an addiction to understand how it's not just a bad habit that one could control if they were encouraged and willing to do so. But please believe me when I tell you that this is NOT THE CASE. It's an insane and inexplicable obsession that we can't stop engaging in even as we see it destroying us, and destroying everything and everyone we love. It's helplessness x 100! It's helplessness to a nightmarish degree. And if that's not horrible enough, the disease twists up the mind's ability to perceive reality so severely that a lot of addicts and alcoholics can't even see how horrible their situation is. So they blame it on the very people and things they love the most, and then never even ask for help. Then they die, instead.

No offense, but your personal peccadilloes regarding god and helplessness really aren't significant in relation to the horrible reality of this deadly disease.

 

[Kapalika]

I find it amazingly arrogant that you would apply "your problem" with the idea of god to a program that has the singular intent of helping alcoholics

I don't believe that's it's "singular intent". I'm not here to debate though.

Keep in mind that most alcoholics, like most people, generally, believe in a god of some sort.

So where do the atheist or non religious alcoholics go? Since by the way the program is designed to need that belief.

Actually, this is the bigger problem to me since some courts rule people need to go to AA if they get in trouble with the law in relation to their drinking.

The truth is that by definition, we are powerless to control our addictions.

I don't believe that, and I'm not here to debate. I simply see it as if one can change at all they must have some power to change. They might of given the credit to the higher power but in my view of such things gods are not things totally separate from us. I'm not an atheist though, so don't mistake me for that.

but your personal peccadilloes regarding god and helplessness really aren't significant in relation to the horrible reality of this deadly disease.

I don't agree it's a disease and I'm not alone in that. You are free to disagree but I'm not convinced. Also a disease AFAIK is a pathological cause and is distinct from something like a disorder or illness. I'd think that alcoholism would be a disorder or illness, not a disease.

Disease theory of alcoholism - Wikipedia

Some physicians, scientists and others have rejected the disease theory of alcoholism on logical, empirical and other grounds.[48][49][50][51][52][53] Indeed, some addiction experts such as Stanton Peele are outspoken in their rejection of the disease model, and other prominent alcohol researchers such as Nick Heather have authored books intending to disprove the disease model.[54]

 

[Kapalika]

I understand your confusion. It's impossible for someone who has not faced the insanity of an addiction

I'm going to need to ask you to take this back and apologize.

Alcoholism destroyed my family and a lot in my family have had it, didn't you see what I said in my previous post? You know nothing about my life or what I've seen/faced and I'd say your making assumptions but I already told you in no uncertain terms otherwise. What I shared previously isn't the full extent of addiction's impact on my family or me and it's as much as I was willing to share.

No offense,

It's too late for that. Unless you want to apologize for the above in which case I'll believe you.

 

[PureX]

I don't believe that's it's "singular intent". I'm not here to debate though.

I can, and do, assure you that helping alcoholics recover from alcoholism is AA's only purpose. But if you're going to make up a different reality in your own head about it, then I can't stop you.

So where do the atheist or non religious alcoholics go? Since by the way the program is designed to need that belief.

They simply view the already recovered alcoholics in the program as their "higher power". Also, anyone can start an AA meeting. In larger cities like Chicago (where I got sober) there are "quad-A" meetings (Atheists and Agnostics Alcoholics Anonymous). Where they simply change the wording of the standard AA literature to eliminate any reference too anything they might consider to mean "god". But for most atheists, it's very easy to just define the "higher power" in a way that does not imply a deity.

Ultimately, that "power greater than ourselves" is the power of a sober life, and a sober mind, anyway.

Actually, this is the bigger problem to me since some courts rule people need to go to AA if they get in trouble with the law in relation to their drinking.

AA has no control over what the courts do, and some AA meetings will not cooperate with such court mandates. Keep in mind that AA is not organized from the "top, down", but from the "bottom, up". Every AA meeting is autonomous. Every group determines their own format. If a group of devout Christians create their own AA meeting so they can share their religious beliefs openly along with their recovery, that's up to them. If I don't like that I can simply go to a different group, or I can start my own group. However, there are a set of "traditions" written out by the people who have comprised AA over the decades that set guidelines for how meetings should be conducted, and why those guidelines exist, based on past experience, and on the singular goal of helping alcoholics get and stay sober.

This preamble is read out loud at the beginning of every AA meeting everywhere in the world:

"Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism."

"The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for A.A. membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."​

I don't believe that, and I'm not here to debate. I simply see it as if one can change at all they must have some power to change. They might of given the credit to the higher power but in my view of such things gods are not things totally separate from us. I'm not an atheist though, so don't mistake me for that.

It's difficult for someone who has not experienced the 'powerlessness' of an addiction to understand it. But at least try to comprehend that the very definition of addiction is that we have lost the ability to control our own thoughts and behavior regarding it. If we could control it, we would not by definition be "addicted".

I don't agree it's a disease and I'm not alone in that. You are free to disagree but I'm not convinced. Also a disease AFAIK is a pathological cause and is distinct from something like a disorder or illness. I'd think that alcoholism would be a disorder or illness, not a disease.

I honestly don't see how any of this matters. It's an affliction that kills millions upon millions of human beings every year, and that destroys the lives of many more millions of people in the process. Bickering over what to call it, and who's to blame, and using "god" to help people recover from it just seems absurdly petty, to me. When the only real issue is how to resolve the problem.

Right now, if you are an alcoholic, your best hope for a recovery is Alcoholics Anonymous. Though sadly, you will most likely never seek help, and you will die a drunk.

 

[PureX]

I'm going to need to ask you to take this back and apologize.

Alcoholism destroyed my family and a lot in my family have had it, didn't you see what I said in my previous post? You know nothing about my life or what I've seen/faced and I'd say your making assumptions but I already told you in no uncertain terms otherwise. What I shared previously isn't the full extent of addiction's impact on my family or me and it's as much as I was willing to share.

It's too late for that. Unless you want to apologize for the above in which case I'll believe you.

Being the loved on of an alcoholic does not mean that you understand the true powerlessness of an addiction. In fact, you're likely to have suffered great harm from the inability to understand it. Because it's an inexplicable condition to witness. It does not "compute" in the mind of a normal human being that one would deliberately destroy themselves and their families just to get drunk, or high. And yet they do it over and over and over, again, even as they hate themselves for it. And then they very often blame everyone around them, even those they love the most, for their having done so. It's 'insane', which is why it doesn't 'compute' in the minds of sane people.

 

[Kapalika]

...

You don't get it, do you? You're still making assumptions about what I've seen and/or done and making personal comments about me and my life when you have no way to know.

Actually I take that back, you should know. I even said as much in post #2. It took me about a year after I first decided I had a problem and needed to quit before I more or less stopped entirely.

That's just stuff I said on the forum, by the way. I had done some really crazy stuff IRL when drunk that I am too embarrassed to ever share that online. I wasn't ever chemically dependent but I had a very real psychological addiction to the escape it gave despite all the damage it did to my social life or pissing off my family with my shanagins. I also had a very self-destructive psychological addiction throughout all my teens.

I know how irresistible addiction is, and how it seems like one is powerless. But I didn't give into that belief and was able to stop both before it got much worse. I don't think I would of done that if I had believed I was powerless particularly since I had no support system to rely on.

So you need stop and I'd still appreciate and apology.

 

[PureX]

You don't get it, do you? You're still making assumptions about what I've seen and/or done and making personal comments about me and my life when you have no way to know.

Actually I take that back, you should know. I even said as much in post #2. It took me about a year after I first decided I had a problem and needed to quit before I more or less stopped entirely.

That's just stuff I said on the forum, by the way. I had done some really crazy stuff IRL when drunk that I am too embarrassed to ever share that online. I wasn't ever chemically dependent but I had a very real psychological addiction to the escape it gave despite all the damage it did to my social life or pissing off my family with my shanagins. I also had a very self-destructive psychological addiction throughout all my teens.

I know how irresistible addiction is, and how it seems like one is powerless. But I didn't give into that belief and was able to stop both before it got much worse. I don't think I would of done that if I had believed I was powerless particularly since I had no support system to rely on.

So you need stop and I'd still appreciate and apology.

I really don't care what you think, or how you characterize your 'addiction', or even how you got free of it. All that matters to me is that you DID GET FREE of it! And that's all that should matter to you regarding other alcoholics and their struggle with their addiction. Who cares if they rely on God? Who cares if they "turn themselves over to a higher power" (a sponsor and a group of fellow recovering alcoholics)? Who cares if they decide to go to the meeting for the rest of their lives? The alternative is a life of insanity, calamity, and eventually a painful death.