2 school shootings today

[Iti oj]

indeed i agree with that .

the problem that USA and other Western and Kings of oil countries gave the guns to rebels in Syria and Libya and Iraq . all we seeing the result

anyway seems that also some people in USA should not have guns too , it's duty of police to protect the civilians.

good point about where the guns are coming from, but what if the people had the means to defend them selves?
Haha that's funny cops protecting people.. Cops shouldn't have guns.... And it's the people duty to protect their rights.

 

[Iti oj]

Gun ownership should be considered a basic human right. No one should have the power to oppress the people.


Funny how those against guns have nothing but rhetoric to back up there claims.

 

[Quintessence]

Haha that's funny cops protecting people.. Cops shouldn't have guns.... And it's the people duty to protect their rights.

"Funny" is also an strange choice of words to use to describe the idea of paid professionals whose job it is to protect and serve. I don't know about you, but I rather like the fact that in my former place of residence, I was able to call someone and say "hey, there's this couple arguing really loudly and I'm afraid they might hurt each other," then have people roll out to ensure it didn't turn into another extremely ugly case of domestic violence. I sure wasn't going to knock on their door myself to try and diffuse that situation!

Why shouldn't law enforcement officers have firearms? In the United States, is it reasonable to expect them to be able to do their jobs without them given the current presence of firearms in the civilian population?

Why is it our duty to protect our rights? What are these rights, and how are they determined?

 

[Iti oj]

"Funny" is also an strange choice of words to use to describe the idea of paid professionals whose job it is to protect and serve. I don't know about you, but I rather like the fact that in my former place of residence, I was able to call someone and say "hey, there's this couple arguing really loudly and I'm afraid they might hurt each other," then have people roll out to ensure it didn't turn into another extremely ugly case of domestic violence. I sure wasn't going to knock on their door myself to try and diffuse that situation!

Why shouldn't law enforcement officers have firearms? In the United States, is it reasonable to expect them to be able to do their jobs without them given the current presence of firearms in the civilian population?

Why is it our duty to protect our rights? What are these rights, and how are they determined?

the swiss have guns and their cops are unarmed.

As per your questions about rights your just being a troll.

 

[Quintessence]

the swiss have guns and their cops are unarmed.

As per your questions about rights your just being a troll.

Oh, you caught me! I'm trolling! Obviously, any attempt to better understand where you're coming from by asking questions to clarify your point of view is massive, massive trolling. How dare I attempt to engage in conversation in the spirit of respect and understanding!

 

[Godobeyer]

good point about where the guns are coming from, but what if the people had the means to defend them selves?
Haha that's funny cops protecting people.. Cops shouldn't have guns.... And it's the people duty to protect their rights.

do you mean ,right to have guns todefending by from other people whom have guns ?

is the gun is the only defend options (tool) , there is many other tools ,

disagree brother ,
the cops the only services whom should have guns to end this mass of crimes .

 

[Iti oj]

Oh, you caught me! I'm trolling! Obviously, any attempt to better understand where you're coming from by asking questions to clarify your point of view is massive, massive trolling.

Were both Americans our rights are clearly defined your question was disingenuous.
We could also look at the UN.

 

[Iti oj]

do you mean ,right to have guns todefending by from other people whom have guns ?

is the gun is the only defend options (tool) , there is many other tools ,

disagree brother ,
the cops the only services whom should have guns to end this mass of crimes .

No gun. Ownership is about the preservation of liberty and rights. The terrorist rampant in your area destroy those liberties. The people have a right to defend them selves.

 

[Iti oj]

As to why it's our duty to defend rights and liberties, because no one had the right and no one should have the power to oppress the people.

 

[suncowiam]

Gun ownership should be considered a basic human right. No one should have the power to oppress the people.


Funny how those against guns have nothing but rhetoric to back up there claims.

Well, since you asked for it:

A Land Without Guns: How Japan Has Virtually Eliminated Shooting Deaths - The Atlantic

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Overview of gun laws by nation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Look at Japan, Hong Kong, and South Korea. There seems to be a correlation with death related to guns and control of guns.

Is this conclusive? I won't assert that to you, but you throwing numbers at me is the same as me throwing numbers at you. You didn't go looking for the opposite because you would have found it easily.

So I guess we're back at rhetoric?

We don't let some people drive (alcoholics)? We don't let some people go near computers (hackers)?

What is so innate about guns to humans that you feel it is oppression to actually prevent some from owning guns?

The point is there is a destructive notion of guns that actually cannot be undone. So many gun advocates simply ignore this. The kill rate of this tool (imo: weapon) per cost per usage per availability is so efficient and optimal for killing.

 

[Quintessence]

Were both Americans our rights are clearly defined your question was disingenuous.

I'm sorry that you chose to interpret what I said that way. It was an honest question, but if you believe I was being "disingenuous," nothing I say is going to change that. The topic of rights is complicated, as are people's understanding of that topic. I don't think it is at all out of line to ask for clarification on how people understand that subject, especially since you are throwing out so much passionate rhetoric about it. You seem almost fanatical to me about this topic, and while I'd like to try and understand, you don't seem open to engaging in a dialogue with me. Pardon for the failed attempt, and I shall not bother you further in this thread.

 

[Iti oj]

Well, since you asked for it:

A Land Without Guns: How Japan Has Virtually Eliminated Shooting Deaths - The Atlantic

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Overview of gun laws by nation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Look at Japan, Hong Kong, and South Korea. There seems to be a correlation with death related to guns and control of guns.

Is this conclusive? I won't assert that to you, but you throwing numbers at me is the same as me throwing numbers at you. You didn't go looking for the opposite because you would have found it easily.

So I guess we're back at rhetoric?

We don't let some people drive (alcoholics)? We don't let some people go near computers (hackers)?

What is so innate about guns to humans that you feel it is oppression to actually prevent some from owning guns?

The point is there is a destructive notion of guns that actually cannot be undone. So many gun advocates simply ignore this. The kill rate of this tool (imo: weapon) per cost per usage per availability is so efficient and optimal for killing.

Thanks for the links. Interesting...

As per your question see my above post.

 

[methylatedghosts]

We would die before giving them up.

Probably afterwards too...

 

[suncowiam]

Thanks for the links. Interesting...

As per your question see my above post.

I for one will still be very happy and free without ever holding a gun in my hand.

Each their own.

But my point is not abolishment. It's about control. Some people do not deserve the rights to own gun. Felonies do not deserve to own guns. Mentally ill that shows destructive behavior do not deserve to own guns. It is not innate to all humans. I'm sure other categories can be asserted here. And only those that have passed sufficient training and testing should be allowed. Not an 11 year old on vacation. Seriously?!?!?!

I understand how rooted this is in America, but I think we need to try harder than simply stop at all humans have the right to own a gun.

If you read the point on South Korea, everyone goes through military training so everyone has training with guns even though it is tightly controled.

 

[Godobeyer]

No gun. Ownership is about the preservation of liberty and rights. The terrorist rampant in your area destroy those liberties. The people have a right to defend them selves.

yes you right about terrorists .

because i am from this area , we had a little liberities of have gun (personal gun), until the terrorists period begin .

during terrorists attacks period (1991-until now ) , the ban of guns is become very high .

illegale possession of a gun cost many years in jail here .

 

[suncowiam]

do you mean ,right to have guns todefending by from other people whom have guns ?

is the gun is the only defend options (tool) , there is many other tools ,

disagree brother ,
the cops the only services whom should have guns to end this mass of crimes .

I've been thinking about this for a long time. Although there are other options, the only way I believe to defend against a gun is with a gun. You simply need to have the same or more force when dealing with people who's intent is to harm you. There's just no other option.

A gun gives you so much tactical advantage in most settings, it's just not fair. If you don't have cover, you're pretty much dead. And if you have cover, you better have an exit path that will outrun a bullet because your cover will be breached without return fire. Not to mention if you are outnumbered then you have to deal with supression and flanking. Plus, the attacker has initiation on you meaning he's probably armored, better prepared and already in tactical position.

This is probably not true in most criminal settings but if the criminals have past military experience, you're pretty screwed. And to say that this can be done with other things like knives. Sure, but we're talking about the kill rate which is in split seconds versus several seconds or even minutes concerning other methods. And you do not have the same distinct tactical advantages with other methods. There is more risk to the attacker with these other methods.

 

[Godobeyer]

I've been thinking about this for a long time. Although there are other options, the only way I believe to defend against a gun is with a gun. You simply need to have the same or more force when dealing with people who's intent is to harm you. There's just no other option.

A gun gives you so much tactical advantage in most settings, it's just not fair. If you don't have cover, you're pretty much dead. And if you have cover, you better have an exit path that will outrun a bullet because your cover will be breached without return fire. Not to mention if you are outnumbered then you have to deal with supression and flanking. Plus, the attacker has initiation on you meaning he's probably armored, better prepared and already in tactical position.

Yes that's my point , the problem is everybody could had gun.

This is probably not true in most criminal settings but if the criminals have past military experience, you're pretty screwed. And to say that this can be done with other things like knives. Sure, but we're talking about the kill rate which is in split seconds versus several seconds or even minutes concerning other methods. And you do not have the same distinct tactical advantages with other methods. There is more risk to the attacker with these other methods.

If he got angry with him , or become as suspect to him , you are lucky to be alive .

accuatly i did not experience that a civil had gun , IF
my neighbor had a gun , in this case i will not feel security until i had gun too , this is like a recycle .