• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

4th Generation Warfare: Whole Societies

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
"...The fourth generation battlefield is likely to include the whole of the enemy's society."

"...
a goal of collapsing the enemy internally rather than physically destroying him. Targets will include such things as the population's support for the war and the enemy's culture."

..."Psychological operations may become the dominant operational and strategic weapon in the form of media/information intervention. Logic bombs and computer viruses, including latent viruses, may be used to disrupt civilian as well as military operations. Fourth generation adversaries will be adept at manipulating the media to alter domestic and world opinion to the point where skillful use of psychological operations will sometimes preclude the commitment of combat forces. A major target will be the enemy population's support of its government and the war. Television news may become a more powerful operational weapon than armored divisions."

-------------------------------

Our survival as a free people may depend not just on diplomatic and peacekeeping efforts, but on an entirely different worldview, including the acceptance and understanding of a new kind of war.

The article excerpted is from the U.S. Marine Corps Gazette.

"The Changing Face of War: Into the Fourth Generation
William S. Lind, Colonel Keith Nightengale (USA),
Captain John F. Schmitt (USMC), Colonel Joseph W. Sutton (USA),
and Lieutenant Colonel Gary I. Wilson (USMCR)"​


..."Elements That Carry Over​

Earlier generational shifts, especially the shift from the second to the third generation, were marked by growing emphasis on several central ideas. Four of these seem likely to carry over into the fourth generation, and indeed to expand their influence.

The first is mission orders. Each generational change has been marked by greater dispersion on the battlefield. The fourth generation battlefield is likely to include the whole of the enemy's society. Such dispersion, coupled with what seems likely to be increased importance for actions by very small groups of combatants, will require even the lowest level to operate flexibly on the basis of the commander's intent.

Second is decreasing dependence on centralized logistics. Dispersion, coupled with increased value placed on tempo, will require a high degree of ability to live off the land and the enemy.

Third is more emphasis on maneuver. Mass, of men or fire power, will no longer be an overwhelming factor. In fact, mass may become a disadvantage as it will be easy to target. Small, highly maneuverable, agile forces will tend to dominate.

Fourth is a goal of collapsing the enemy internally rather than physically destroying him. Targets will include such things as the population's support for the war and the enemy's culture. Correct identification of enemy strategic centers of gravity will be highly important.

In broad terms, fourth generation warfare seems likely to be widely dispersed and largely undefined; the distinction between war and peace will be blurred to the vanishing point. It will be nonlinear, possibly to the point of having no definable battlefields or fronts. The distinction between "civilian" and "military" may disappear. Actions will occur concurrently throughout all participants' depth, including their society as a cultural, not just a physical, entity. Major military facilities, such as airfields, fixed communications sites, and large headquarters will become rarities because of their vulnerability; the same may be true of civilian equivalents, such as seats of government, power plants, and industrial sites (including knowledge as well as manufacturing industries).

Success will depend heavily on effectiveness in joint operations as lines between responsibility and mission become very blurred. Again, all these elements are present in third generation warfare; fourth generation will merely accentuate them.
"



Potential Technology-Driven Fourth Generation -- more

EMP's, robots, artificial intelligence.. great reading.
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
"Even in equipment, terrorism may point toward signs of a change in generations. Typically, an older generation requires much greater resources to achieve a given end than does its successor. Today, the United States is spending $500 million apiece for stealth bombers. A terrorist stealth bomber is a car with a bomb in the trunk—a car that looks like every other car.


Terrorism, Technology, and Beyond​

Again, we are not suggesting terrorism is the fourth generation. It is not a new phenomenon, and so far it has proven largely ineffective.


However, what do we see if we combine terrorism with some of the new technology we have discussed? For example, what effectiveness might the terrorist have if his car bomb were a product of genetic engineering rather than high explosives? To draw our potential fourth generation out still further, what if we combined terrorism, high technology, and the following additional elements?


A non-national or transnational base, such as an ideology or religion." More
 
This kind of war has already been implemented by the guerillas in the middle east and the viet cong. The theory of capturing the hearts and minds of the enemy before you actually kill their leader has been around for a very long time. In vietnam we used superior forces, fought a traditional war, and we lost.

General Westmoreland actually said that "we will capture the hearts and the minds of the people of vietnam by a show of force."

The western ideas of warfare are as backwards as the British during the revolutionary war. We expect these people to line up and fight in a line againist superior offensives. We underestimate what the enemy can do.

The campaigns during the Vietnam war in the western media caused by celebrities going to visit the Viet Cong generals and the allowance of documentation and viewing of the horrors of war by the American people were all effective means of the mass movement to stop the war. The Viet Cong used every propaganda they could for internal and external use as are the guerillas in the middle east. Further more for a government to be effective in war time it should use platos republic a book heavily relied on for the western Democratic Republics. In his words "the people should be keep as ignorant as possible." We seem to be able to do that with in every other facet of our government.

I could rant for ever about the republic, sun tzu's art of war, machiavelli's art of war and the prince, but i won't. maybe i'll start another thread :)
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
This kind of war has already been implemented by the guerillas in the middle east and the viet cong. The theory of capturing the hearts and minds of the enemy before you actually kill their leader has been around for a very long time. In vietnam we used superior forces, fought a traditional war, and we lost.
This is true, but only one aspect of the whole presentation. The tactical considerations are fascinating as well as the technology on the horizon.

But yes it seems our nation as a whole has no, zero, zip, nada understanding of the population's (that's us as in all Americans) role in such wars. We are grossly underestimating the power of "personal opinion" (translation: propaganda) as it relates to sedition, treason or playing into the hands of manipulators.

And there's no one on the bully pulpit with the charisma, intelligence or courage to counter it.
 

almifkhar

Active Member
the fact of the matter is this. the war on terror was desgined to last and last and last, just like the war on drugs.

problem-reaction-soultion all staged so fat cats can have their little heaven on earth while us who remain can be the slaves. nothings new
 
problem-reaction-soultion all staged so fat cats can have their little heaven on earth while us who remain can be the slaves. nothings new

who is profiting off this war besides arms manufacturers?
the u.s. is losing money in both wars and they are both pointless.

ever since world war two weve taken on a save the world mentality that has ****** us over.
 

Smoke

Done here.
ALifetimeToWaitFor.... said:
who is profiting off this war besides arms manufacturers?
the u.s. is losing money in both wars and they are both pointless.
Those making decisions for the U.S. don't seem to worry about whether the U.S. is losing money, as long as they and their friends make money.
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
ALifetimeToWaitFor.... said:
who is profiting off this war besides arms manufacturers?
the u.s. is losing money in both wars and they are both pointless.

ever since world war two weve taken on a save the world mentality that has ****** us over.

Are you including Afghanistan insofar as the WoT goes, after 9/11? Sorry I'd have to take issue there.

Otherwise yeah would have to agree. And most people I know feel the same.
 

almifkhar

Active Member
war is business my friend!

lets take panama as the example. i remember sitting at my grandmothers dinner table with the abc news on every day. well one day peter jenings says how our lease is up with the cannal and they did this historical background of the cannal and how we were the ones who built it and now the time has come to stick the the agreement and hand control of the cannal over to panama.

a week or so goes by and then peter jenings for what seemed like forever was saying how noregia was a drug dealer bad guy. not long after we invaded panama killed some people and put noregia in prison on drug charges. guess who still controls the cannal? WE DO!!!! that's right, we renigged on the deal, why because our government didn't want to let go of such a money maker.

i could go on and on about the u.s. and conflicts and how we sell arms to all sides of the conflict. i could go on and on about how we rigged election after election to instill our puppet (saddam is a fine example here)

america, save the world? are you serious? we have been creating conflicts for the past 50 years and haven't saved not one country, except israel.

what do you think funds war? why none other than drug trafficing. why do you think right now in afghanistan poppy production is higher than it has ever been? because we dictate it. arms trafficing is another one. heck i just saw an article that said the u.s. is selling $4.6 billion in arms to arab nations. this is going on NOW!!

want to find out how sick and twisted our government is with money and power all to hold on to it's foregin business interests, one country comes to mind. the democratic republic of the congo. cross refferece this with the c.i.a. and i promise you will see a whole different side of america and the "save the world mentality"
 
well yes afghanistan although it was a defensive act applying to our "religious" campaign to spread captilism and the idea of the republic, we are basically trying to save the world from there "backwards" ways and have ended up screwing things up more. The idea of captilism and the republic have become a religion.

religion |riˈlijən| noun the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods : ideas about the relationship between science and religion. • details of belief as taught or discussed : when the school first opened they taught only religion, Italian, and mathematics. • a particular system of faith and worship : the world's great religions. • a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance : consumerism is the new religion.

just so theres no confusion
 
i believe what you are saying man, but regardless this is all theory. No matter how much you find evidence backing your view point I can find evidence backing the other side. The only real way is to not take a polar view point, but a moderate one.

Secondly I know war is a business and it helps the economy in most cases, but these wars have actually down nothing for it. It's still going up at the same rate. The U.S. gov't does have an greed problem although like what you sited in panama.
 

almifkhar

Active Member
i am going to be blunt and honest with you.

afghistan was never ment to become a democratic prospering capitolistic country. the taliban was and still is control by us. nothing has changed.

here is what i mean and we will use iraq as the example
before we invaded the first time around, iraqi lived better than us in a lot of respects. it was secular, and most everyone had a job, good schools, hospitals. things were so good infact, obesty was the biggest health problem facing children. between both invasions and the inhumaine sanctions, our government reduced a once thriving country into mozambque. iraq WILL NEVER, EVER, NEVER be what it once was. iraqis will forever live in poverty and it was planed that way. this civil war going on there, all a scheme to steel her resources.

this is the reality of amreican forigen policy. we go no where unless there is something in it for us pure and simple. don't be fooled my friend.
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
ALifetimeToWaitFor.... said:
who is profiting off this war besides arms manufacturers?

Nobody except maybe Geraldo Rivera, Christiane Amanpour, CNN et al.... gotta have fuel for the round the clock cable news. :yes:
 

almifkhar

Active Member
of course you can find info to counter my info, but then again it comes down to propaganda and why there is a need for propaganda right? i will let henry kissenger say it for me
"the situation is much too important for the chilean people to decide."
translation: we will rig the election so we will benifit
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
Lifetime: Surely you recall September 11, 2001. Our entry into Afghanistan immediately afterwards had nothing to do with somebody's religion. We went there trying to find OBL, no need to make it any more or less than what it was.
 
trust me i'm not fooled the us has multiple objectives in any campaign. they do spread progaganda just like the their enemies do. Truthfully I think all systems of government should just burn to the ground and be started over just to take out all the ******** that we can't even seen. its all speculation to me however. I can't fuel a fire in my self until I see the paperwork and hear the conversations which will never happen. All I can do is try to make the world a little bit better by showing some compassion whereever I can. I guess I just can't get into politics because of all the vaguitys inside of it. I was really just posting in this thread under a military pretense then somehow put foward some ideas. I guess I have a semi-romaticised view instilled in of our country because of my republican background that I fight every day because i knows it all ****.
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
almifkhar said:
of course you can find info to counter my info, but then again it comes down to propaganda and why there is a need for propaganda right? i will let henry kissenger say it for me
"the situation is much too important for the chilean people to decide."
translation: we will rig the election so we will benifit
Well you can choose to relate to every event through the dark lenses of paranoia, but it won't make for a happy life or contribute anything of value here, people will just tune you out I'm afraid.

I'm going to have to ask that we get back to the point. What I said on another thread might help.

...After reading and re-reading the OP article:

I have no doubt we are actually fighting the war on terror right here on this forum.

You and I are active participants and as such, should hold one another accountable for every post.

Just something to think about.
 
Top