$5 Million Fine for Classroom Discussions on Race? In Tennessee, This Is the New Reality

[Revoltingest]

Well, it may not be slavery in the technical/legal sense, but it is interesting that, in light of the recent pandemic and people getting extra unemployment benefits, businesses are complaining about labor shortages. And it's not like they're getting that much money either. That severely deflates any arguments about workers "choosing" to work, therefore it's not slavery. Pay them without having to work, and see how willing they'd be to work.

So, working in a sweatshop may not technically be slavery, but recent evidence would clearly show that if people have other choices, they won't work there. (Same argument is often used to justify employing illegal immigrants, as people who have choices won't do those kinds of jobs at such low pay.)

The "victim complex" is that which displayed by business owners who complain about alleged "labor shortages."

Not every complaint about something is a victim complex.
But employees who have all sorts of legal protections, &
can change jobs whenever they want are not slaves.

To say that they aren't only in a "technical/legal sense" is
utterly ridiculous. Slaves were bought, sold, & owned.
Owners owned their children, & could split up families.
Slaves could be beaten & killed.
Any Ameristanian employee who believes their conditions
are equivalent or even similar are simply deluded. But I
suspect that it's really just a comforting fiction they enjoy
to feel the victim.

 

[Stevicus]

Not every complaint about something is a victim complex.
But employees who have all sorts of legal protections, &
can change jobs whenever they want are not slaves.

To say that they aren't only in a "technical/legal sense" is
utterly ridiculous. Slaves were bought, sold, & owned.
Owners owned their children, & could split up families.
Slaves could be beaten & killed.
Any Ameristanian employee who believes their conditions
are equivalent or even similar are simply deluded. But I
suspect that it's really just a comforting fiction they enjoy
to feel the victim.

No one has denied the differences or that slavery was worse, but if you're trying to imply that sweatshop workers are privileged and treated like royalty, then who is the one who is deluded?

Again, the proof is in the choices that people actually do make, when they have the choice to do so. If there are labor shortages, then this is clear evidence that people will not work a job unless they have to.

And yes, the employers do have a victim complex. I posted an article a while back about a lady who owned a winery, and she was complaining that (due to Trump's crackdown on illegals) she couldn't find legal workers to do the work she needed to stay in business. It's the attitude of entitlement that so business owners seem to have which is a big giveaway.

 

[Revoltingest]

No one has denied the differences or that slavery was worse....

But I often see claims of similarity & even equivalence.
That is absurd.

but if you're trying to imply...

I don't imply.
I state.

Again, the proof is in the choices that people actually do make, when they have the choice to do so. If there are labor shortages, then this is clear evidence that people will not work a job unless they have to.

Red herring.
The fact that demand for labor waxes &
wanes is irrelevant to the claim of slavery.

And yes, the employers do have a victim complex. I posted an article a while back about a lady who owned a winery, and she was complaining that (due to Trump's crackdown on illegals) she couldn't find legal workers to do the work she needed to stay in business. It's the attitude of entitlement that so business owners seem to have which is a big giveaway.

You found one woman whom you say has a victim complex.
But she wasn't claiming to be a slave.

 

[Stevicus]

But I often see claims of similarity & even equivalence.
That is absurd.

No, I just see it as the difference between speaking figuratively and speaking literally.

I don't imply.
I state.

Well, you stated that workers have "all sorts of legal protections, &
can change jobs whenever they want." That implies a certain level of privilege that they don't really have. Sure, they can walk away from a sweatshop - and then go homeless and starve to death. That's hardly much of a choice, so who are you trying to kid?

Red herring.
The fact that demand for labor waxes &
wanes is irrelevant to the claim of slavery.

It's relevant to the claim of "choice" which you're making. You maintain that people work in sweatshops out of "choice" and that they can freely walk away at any time. That's a false choice, which isn't any choice at all. Now, we're seeing what happens when they have a real choice of walking away from a job and not facing as much of a hardship (although it still is, to some degree).

The bottom line is: People don't really want to work crappy jobs if they have other choices available. So the claim that they do so out of "free choice" is a bogus claim. It may not be slavery, but it's not exactly true freedom either.

You found one woman whom you say has a victim complex.
But she wasn't claiming to be a slave.

Well, it's not just one woman, but her example is pretty typical of the mentality I'm addressing.

Why do you think employers hired strikebreakers? Why do employers typically refuse to go along with worker demands, fighting tooth and nail against anything that might help their workers have better lives? This is their entitlement mentality at work. This is their way of thinking.

 

[Revoltingest]

No, I just see it as the difference between speaking figuratively and speaking literally.

That would be something worth making clearer.

Well, you stated that workers have "all sorts of legal protections, &
can change jobs whenever they want." That implies a certain level of privilege that they don't really have. Sure, they can walk away from a sweatshop - and then go homeless and starve to death. That's hardly much of a choice, so who are you trying to kid?

You & I must live in different countries.
I see no common ground for discussion.

 

[Stevicus]

That would be something worth making clearer.

You & I must live in different countries.
I see no common ground for discussion.

Another irrefutable argument.

 

[Revoltingest]

Another irrefutable argument.

It's not an argument at all.
Just recognition that further discussion would be unproductive.

 

[Stevicus]

It's not an argument at all.
Just recognition that further discussion would be unproductive.

No, I meant that my argument was irrefutable.

 

[Revoltingest]

No, I meant that my argument was irrefutable.

Yeah......if you mean unworthy.

 

[Stevicus]

Yeah......if you mean unworthy.

If I said 2+2=6, it would be easy to refute, so it would be unlikely that anyone would try to duck away. When people do try to duck away from a discussion, that means they can't easily refute what's being said. Either that, or the argument is flawless and irrefutable.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Not every complaint about something is a victim complex.
But employees who have all sorts of legal protections, &
can change jobs whenever they want are not slaves.

To say that they aren't only in a "technical/legal sense" is
utterly ridiculous. Slaves were bought, sold, & owned.
Owners owned their children, & could split up families.
Slaves could be beaten & killed.
Any Ameristanian employee who believes their conditions
are equivalent or even similar are simply deluded. But I
suspect that it's really just a comforting fiction they enjoy
to feel the victim.

I don't think slaves would have been ok of they all called the master a fat ***. But I've been employed where everyone did basically just that (and the turnover rate is insanely high).
Another job, worked my way high up the totem pole despite being oppositional towards my boss, who was the top dog on the field.
Absolute worst job I had I left the boss' truck at the side of the road when it ran out of gas (he didn't give us enough money for gas and refused to accept we needed more). Cussed him out when he called wondering what the hell.
And that is why employees aren't slaves.

 

[Revoltingest]

I When people do try to duck away from a discussion, that means they can't easily refute what's being said.

I can think of several other excellent reasons.
Two apply here.
But we're not going there.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't think slaves would have been ok of they all called the master a fat ***. But I've been employed where everyone did basically just that (and the turnover rate is insanely high).

I wonder what the turnover rate
was for slaves in the deep south?

Another job, worked my way high up the totem pole despite being oppositional towards my boss, who was the top dog on the field.
Absolute worst job I had I left the boss' truck at the side of the road when it ran out of gas (he didn't give us enough money for gas and refused to accept we needed more). Cussed him out when he called wondering what the hell.
And that is why employees aren't slaves.

It's empowering to know one isn't a slave, eh.

 

[We Never Know]

Many slave owners weren't wealthy.
Anyone who thinks that working a regular job is slavery
is someone who needs to study some history.
Oh, they also need to ditch the victim complex.
If'n ya ain't independently wealthy, ya gotta work.

These people aren't wealthy and don't work for anyone. Not to mention the people that live off grid living off the land.

In 2013 there were thought to be roughly 100 uncontacted tribes worldwide.

 

[Revoltingest]

These people aren't wealthy and don't work for anyone. Not to mention the people that live off grid living off the land.

In 2013 there were thought to be roughly 100 uncontacted tribes worldwide.

People who live off the land do work to survive.
Not a job....but still work.

 

[We Never Know]

People who live off the land do work to survive.
Not a job....but still work.

When they want.

They don't have a master, aka a boss, controlling when they have to show up, when they can leave, what and how much work they should do.

 

[Revoltingest]

When they want.

Owning my own businesses, I worked when I wanted.
I could stretch out those sometime 70+ hour weeks
however I pleased.

They don't have a master, aka a boss, controlling when they have to show up, when they can leave, what and how much work they should do.

If they don't work, then all they need do is pluck food from
plants,

When they want.

They don't have a master, aka a boss, controlling when they have to show up, when they can leave, what and how much work they should do.

 

[Wandering Monk]

I agree, although one area that seems deficient is in teaching the causes and effects of history.



The problem seems to be in the methods of teaching, usually making it out to be some kind of melodramatic morality play rather than a rational and objective review of the causes and effects which got us to where we are now. At a basic (non-university) level, history is often taught as a series of disconnected incidents, as if "these things just happen" out of the blue, without any known or apparent reason. Also, with our culture being very individualistic, the focus is usually on key individuals, with a deemphasis on movements, trends, and how they connect with each other. Therefore, the populist version of history is that Hitler "just happened" out of the blue, leading some people to conclude that, if it wasn't for Hitler, WW2 never would have happened.

It leads some people to believe that, if only they had cancel culture or political correctness back in Germany in the 1920s, there wouldn't have been any Nazis or Hitler. That's what seems to be implied today and justifies that point of view in many people's eyes. There's this apparent underlying belief that, if we don't censor or restrict certain kinds of rhetoric, somehow it will spread and everyone in America will turn into a Nazi. They think it's only because of words (and nothing else) which create political movements and motivate people to support them.

We certainly don't want to examine economic causes, because then people might think poorly of capitalism or big business, and we certainly can't have any of that. As a result, we can see indications of people reacting against disingenuous, cynical, and skewed versions of history, even to the point of wanting to issue fines for teaching it. Of course, it seems that the current view of history started as a reaction against the Manifest Destiny/Lost Cause version which dominated the American political culture prior to the 1960s, so that may have been even worse.

Did your school teach you about the Tulsa Massacre? I grew up in the 60's and never a word.

 

[Jose Fly]

This article about a school district in Texas epitomizes what the whole "critical race theory debate" is really about.

A Texas school district asked a Black principal to remove a photo of him kissing his white wife. Then the community branded him a critical race theory 'boogeyman.' (msn.com)

This principal, the first black one in the district's history, was asked to take down a pic of him kissing his white wife. He also sent an email to the high school listserve, where he said, "We are collectively using our voice to denounce systemic racism and the inequities that people of color face on a daily basis in our country. I encourage us all not to grow weary in the battle against systemic racism - commit to being an anti-racist."

Of course that sent the locals into a frenzy. Read the article to see what all happened.

But in general, this is mostly what I see is driving the issue. People of color are saying racism existed in the US, and still exists and affects POC today. And in response, (mostly) white conservatives get very upset and angry, and effectively tell POC "No it doesn't" and then try and shut down all subsequent discussion of racism.

Of course not talking about racism and pretending it doesn't exist is easier and more convenient for groups that have benefited from historic and current racism. For POC on the other hand....they don't have that luxury.

 

[Jose Fly]

Did your school teach you about the Tulsa Massacre? I grew up in the 60's and never a word.

I never heard about it until earlier this year. I also didn't hear about a similar event in N. Carolina (or maybe S. Carolina) until this year.

Goes to show who's writing the history textbooks.