61% of Americans Say Students Should Be Required to Say the Pledge of Allegiance

[Vidensia]

No we could just exclude you and your views.

Sure. From what though?

 

[Srivijaya]

Strange in war nationalism is what keeps a country free.

It's generally nationalism which starts wars in the first place.

 

[Darkforbid]

It's generally nationalism which starts wars in the first place.

*expansionism

 

[Jollybear]

Try forcing me to say the pledge, & one would
discover a whole lotta disunity & commotion.
I'd be loath to say even the pre-"God" pledge.

Whaddaya think of the pledge I wrote?

I dunno what the point would be in forcing anyone to pledge to something they did not believe in there heart anyway.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's generally nationalism which starts wars in the first place.

I don't blame nationalism for a violent attitude.
Instead, I blame the violent attitude, shortsightedness, & intolerance.

 

[Revoltingest]

I dunno what the point would be in forcing anyone to pledge to something they did not believe in there heart anyway.

My pledge is entirely voluntary.
And I'd be perfectly happy if no one volunteered to say it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

They should be taught American and Western values, not made to memorize rote words pledging loyalty to a piece of cloth. If you want pro-community and patriotic kids, teach them the significance of "E Pluribus Unum" and teach them to take care of each other and respect the rights of each other.

 

[Jollybear]

They should be taught American and Western values, not made to memorize rote words pledging loyalty to a piece of cloth. If you want pro-community and patriotic kids, teach them the significance of "E Pluribus Unum" and teach them to take care of each other and respect the rights of each other.

That means we need to teach them to not grow up voting away my or others liberty away.

Like, seat belts and helmets for moterbikes.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Strange in war nationalism is what keeps a country free.

Didn't work for Germany.

It's generally nationalism which starts wars in the first place.

Probably not that many overall. America raised a couple generations to be very patriotic and nationalistic, and yet lots of us still don't want and protested war. More often, we find resources, territory, conquest, religion, and other factors that historically have given rise to war. I'm not aware of many who had a "strict nationalist diet" and went to war just because of that. I wager it's probably more often an excuse to justify the means, ends, and purposes of going to war rather the the reason itself. Vietnam, for example, wasn't so much about French and American nationalism as it was French and American corporate interests. The policy of Containment was the "frosting excuse" to hide what was actually going on.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That means we need to teach them to not grow up voting away my or others liberty away.

Like, seat belts and helmets for moterbikes.

Those things are public safety issues, and the tax payer has an interest in enforcing those policies. But, in general, when it comes to our private lives I agree.

 

[Darkforbid]

Didn't work for Germany.

Probably not that many overall. America raised a couple generations to be very patriotic and nationalistic, and yet lots of us still don't want and protested war. More often, we find resources, territory, conquest, religion, and other factors that historically have given rise to war. I'm not aware of many who had a "strict nationalist diet" and went to war just because of that. I wager it's probably more often an excuse to justify the means, ends, and purposes of going to war rather the the reason itself. Vietnam, for example, wasn't so much about French and American nationalism as it was French and American corporate interests. The policy of Containment was the "frosting excuse" to hide what was actually going on.

How is Germany not free

 

[sun rise]

It would probably be better if every child got their own copy of the Constitution of the United States, rather than having to say the pledge of allegiance every morning. That might help the process.

The Constitution has too many specific details. Add the Declaration of Independence, the Great Seal of the US and other documents and what various people such as George Washington and Abraham Lincoln said and it would be a great foundation. The Pledge is not necessary but that education is.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

How is Germany not free

The Nazis were fiercely Nationalist. It didn't keep Germany free.
Fascist Italy was fiercely Nationalist. It didn't keep Italy free.

 

[Revoltingest]

Didn't work for Germany.

Probably not that many overall. America raised a couple generations to be very patriotic and nationalistic, and yet lots of us still don't want and protested war. More often, we find resources, territory, conquest, religion, and other factors that historically have given rise to war. I'm not aware of many who had a "strict nationalist diet" and went to war just because of that. I wager it's probably more often an excuse to justify the means, ends, and purposes of going to war rather the the reason itself. Vietnam, for example, wasn't so much about French and American nationalism as it was French and American corporate interests. The policy of Containment was the "frosting excuse" to hide what was actually going on.

What were the "corporate interests" in the Vietnam war?
I remember widespread fear of atheist commies as driving
public demand to wage war.

 

[Srivijaya]

*expansionism

Sure, that and a load of other stuff. But nationalism is the pretty packaging in which its sold to the masses.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What were the "corporate interests" in the Vietnam war?
I remember widespread fear of atheist commies as driving
public demand to wage war.

It was mostly French, who were fighting to maintain colonial control over the French Indo-China. When Ho Chi Mihn declared independence, the church and Western businesses weren't welcomed.

 

[Jollybear]

Those things are public safety issues, and the tax payer has an interest in enforcing those policies. But, in general, when it comes to our private lives I agree.

Its not a public safety issue, its a individual freedom issue, that may or may not be a safety issue.

Seat belts may not save lives, in some cases. But, hey, if someone chooses to be unsafe, they should have the liberty to do so, whether it be no helmet or no seatbelt. It dont mean they are gonna crash just because there not wearing a belt or helmet. But if they do, they should get to have that individual liberty. If other individuals want to wear a seat belt or wear a helmet, well they have that liberty too.

Whats wrong with this?

Democrasy is evil, republic, individual liberty is best.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Its not a public safety issue, its a individual freedom issue, that may or may not be a safety issue.

Not having such laws requires more public resources than if we do. It's cheaper and more efficient for the tax payer. It could be said leaded paint is an individual freedom issue, but, again, such a thing causes a strain on tax payer interests.

But, hey, if someone chooses to be unsafe, they should have the liberty to do so, whether it be no helmet or no seatbelt.

Not if it's requiring those responding (police, firefighters, medical) to spend longer time and use more resources. Not if it's to the point that it's detrimental to society at large. And do remember: driving is a privilege, NOT a right.

 

[Revoltingest]

It was mostly French, who were fighting to maintain colonial control over the French Indo-China. When Ho Chi Mihn declared independence, the church and Western businesses weren't welcomed.

So we entered the war to help Froggy business interests?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So we entered the war to help Froggy business interests?

More or less, they did drag America into it.