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7 players stand out of gay pride game

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Haven't you considered that there are Christians who believe homosexual acts are wrong and do not want to be seen to be promoting that.
Maybe it is hatred and bigotry to be calling those people hateful and bigoted.
Those players are just following their conscience and you do not know their personal feelings about homosexuals.
How do they know what "acts" gay people are doing? And why do you care? Do people not realize they are the same "acts" that straight people are doing?

We are not talking about people who have said that gay people are an abomination to the God. You seem to want to put words in their mouth and my mouth and I think in the mouth of God also.
God does not consider homosexuals an abomination, He considers homosexual acts an abomination.
Oh okay. So it's the actions they carry out as an extension of part of who they are as a person that you take issue with. Totally different. :rolleyes:
The very same actions that heterosexual people commonly carry out, but they aren't viewed in the same light as gay people, now are they? I mean, I don't see a lot of people calling out heterosexuals here.

Maybe the people of the Westboro Baptist Church are bigots.
There is a big problem in Christian Churches at the moment and it threatens to divide many denominations. Some leaders want to bless gay marriages and others see it as going against God's message in the Bible.
It has nothing to do with bigotry but with an attitude to the Bible.
But of course some who don't want to bless gay marriages are bigoted and some who want to bless gay marriages are probably so liberal about the Bible that they aren't Christians any more.
It is certainly an emotive topic and produces polarisation/division and a lack of willingness to hear the other side of the debate. This is what happens in the Christians Church and it can be 10 times worse when the discussion is between Christians and atheists.
Bigotry derived from Biblical texts is still bigotry.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I'm saying that the more overtly bigoted and hateful message is the same one as the "hate the sin, love the sinner" : "You're not good enough, you are defective, you offend a good god, and if you continue, you are fit for eternal torture - but God loves you, and so do I." You don't need to agree or disagree that that is what that message means, because it doesn't matter to the church's future what its adherents say is the actual message and how it is to be understood. What matters is the opinions of the culture at large. Can you not see that this is an offensive message to many and a bad look for the church?

Remember, I make a distinction between hot bigotry and cold bigotry, with only the former being accompanied by overt hatred. Just because one feels no hatred does not mean that he is not the vector for the hatred of others. Both groups are equally sincere. I consider you sincere and hate-free, but you are also a vector for Christian homophobia.

I understand that it's a bad look for the church but who knows, society might settle down in time with the name calling etc and come to see the reality of what the Bible teaches.
Really it is everyone that is called to Jesus and repentance and certainly being born with inclinations in a certain direction which God says is not His way (as we all have) is a challenge for everyone and not just gays.
I suppose the thing about the Biblical message about sexual issues is that it can be harder to see how these things can have a bad effect on society, so why bother sticking to them.

Yes, it's a homophobic belief. I wish it were silenced, which is why I am an antitheist. I would like to help discredit organized, politicized Christianity to diminish its cultural hegemony. I see it as a net societal harm. I realize that you and most believers (and probably most unbelievers) see the church as a positive social force, but many others see it like I do.

Yes and the minority does manage to rule over the majority even in democracies, and that would be because Christians do vote in favour of changes to decrease Christians imposing their values.
Then unfortunately it seems that, because of the hateful Christians, that the fight has been against Christians and Christianity even when it is Christianity that managed to get things over line. (eg Gay marriage etc).

That's not possible. You're talking about a huge number of people delivering that message and a huge number listening to it.

The Biblical message is nothing more than that homosexual acts are not approved of by God.
No doubt that is homophobic to some but that is a wrong understanding of homophobia.
The Biblical message also is that we are all sinners in many ways and God does not want any sin and God can lead us away from it if we turn to Him.
It is hypocrisy for Christians to condemn gays really, but not to preach the gospel message.

It's a problem for the church. I don't see it solving it. I expect it to continue shooting itself in the foot, as it has with the abortion issue. It has to for as long as it can. What are they going to do to rein in the homophobia problem, or the misogyny problem? Nothing. What can they do but be more silent, and I'm pretty sure that Christian culture, which teaches spreading the gospel wherever and whenever possible, won't permit that.

The individual adherent must choose what he wishes to express to others in the face of a culture that would reject him for that behavior like he rejects gays. He will be seen as morally deficient and likely chastised for expressing such religious views. And why not? Every other religious demographic faces the same judgment, and since all of the others are too weak to affect law or policy, they keep their religious opinions to themselves. Think of the Muslims. I practiced medicine in a rural area with about a dozen Muslim docs and a few dozen Christian ones. We only heard from the Christians, because they felt empowered expressing themselves. I had to keep silent as an atheist. The Muslims were silent as well.

But now that atheists are taking a more prominent position in society and are increasingly less marginalized and demonized by the church, they have become emboldened and vocal themselves - what many like to call militant atheism - and its the increasingly put church on the defensive, as in this thread. In another few decades, the Christians in America may have the same status as the other religions, and be pressured into keeping their religion private and confined to the lives of believers and those who want to hear them, just like the Sikhs and Druids, as it should be in a diverse, tolerant, secular society.

I look forward to a day when nobody has any better idea of how Jesus feels about gays than how Brigid, a Celtic goddess, feels. What would Brigid do? I don't know. Who?

The gospel is not gay centred of course and is not abortion centred even if some people want to make Christianity gay and abortion centred and some Christians keep wanting to promote that view, a Christianity that is full of rules against certain things, but the real Christianity is full of love for people and a Christian's life is something that God is in charge of changing if and when He sees appropriate.
Meet Brigid, the Irish Goddess Who Became a Saint, a Lesbian Icon, and a Voodoo Loa
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
It looks bad because it's hypocrisy. That whole minding the beam in your own eye before tending to the splinter in your neighbors eye.

Brig would probably write a poem about how bad it is to tolerate the Den of Sin, as those Christians would say, but get worked up over the sin their priest told them to especially single out and hate, with the end goal of portraying the inferiority of the Christians through their loose morality and beliefs, despite being wrote down, when compared the oral traditions of the Celts.
And with Jesus we can say it is very likely he didn't discriminate against gays and welcomed them just as much as anyone else when he healed the "special friend" of the Roman Centaur (who himself, regardless of who his lover may have been, was Jesus and the Jews oppressor, so it reveals a great deal of how un-Christlike swarms of Christians are).

You are probably right
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
How do they know what "acts" gay people are doing? And why do you care? Do people not realize they are the same "acts" that straight people are doing?

Seriously, you have no idea what I might be referring to?
But it is not me who cares it is between a Christian and God.

Oh okay. So it's the actions they carry out as an extension of part of who they are as a person that you take issue with. Totally different. :rolleyes:
The very same actions that heterosexual people commonly carry out, but they aren't viewed in the same light as gay people, now are they? I mean, I don't see a lot of people calling out heterosexuals here.

People can always say "That's who I am" with anything they do, and then claim that a God has no right to say what I feel like doing is wrong. It is God after all who made me as I am."
All Christians can have a version of that in their own lives also even if they are not homosexual.

Bigotry derived from Biblical texts is still bigotry.

Westboro church bigotry is really a denial of the Biblical teaching imo.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Westboro church bigotry is really a denial of the Biblical teaching imo.
Then what of a business owner who bans homosexuals for religious beliefs?
What if this same business doesn't even think about those who have married more than once? What if this business owner welcomes a fornicator while wearing mixed threads and while working during the Sabbath?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Then what of a business owner who bans homosexuals for religious beliefs?
What if this same business doesn't even think about those who have married more than once? What if this business owner welcomes a fornicator while wearing mixed threads and while working during the Sabbath?

I don't know what wearing mixed threads and the Sabbath have to do with it (unless there is Judaism involved in it) but the others sound like hypocrisy and bigotry and against Biblical principles.
Sometimes there are fine lines to be drawn however on the rights of the customers versus the rights of the business owner.
Has a cake maker the right to refuse to make a cake for a gay wedding?
Should an airline ban to sell a ticket to someone who has made known their negative opinion on gay marriage in public? (The airline CEO is gay.)
These are the sort of interesting things that the law has to deal with. I don't know how they decide whose rights to preserve in any given situation. All I can do is offer an opinion.
Cancel culture generally is not a good thing imo or we should say that the Taliban destroying ancient religious sites is a good thing.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Sometimes there are fine lines to be drawn however on the rights of the customers versus the rights of the business owner.
That's just it. They scream, cry, wail and gnash their teeth over gays but don't give a single damn about other sins like being married more than once. That's the point. They don't give a damn about what their religion teaches and are only puking up the garbage their preacher has been filling them with.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
You don't see the difference between basic respect and "acclaim"? Interesting.
It seems you are suggesting wearing someone's flag of pride is equatable with "basic respect", is that accurate?

Or, to the point, do you believe you can see something as wrong, improper, or impure, or something that should not be promoted and still offer "basic respect" to the people who are associated with that thing? Or is endorsement a necessary part of respect.
 

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
That's just it. They scream, cry, wail and gnash their teeth over gays but don't give a single damn about other sins like being married more than once. That's the point. They don't give a damn about what their religion teaches and are only puking up the garbage their preacher has been filling them with.

Or, their religion/ spirituality is intertwined with their culture, and it grows and evolves through them… and they simply do not wish to welcome and embrace woke leftist propaganda and lifestyles into their own spiritual/ religious/ cultural circles and Weltanschauung.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Or, their religion/ spirituality is intertwined with their culture, and it grows and evolves through them… and they simply do not wish to welcome and embrace woke leftist propaganda and lifestyles into their own spiritual/ religious/ cultural circles and Weltanschauung.
Yeah, that's why Nietzsche proclaim god is dead. We're so far removed from Christianity that today we have shell that is an utter farcical reconstructed religion that itself is a reconstruction of a reconstruction. It hasn't been about what Jehovah or Jesus taught since the establishment of the Vatican and the Catholic Church. That was basically the attack that began a terminal series of being gutted and turned into a skin suit. And history does indeed show the the Church is very much prone to being caught up in the time of the World even though their Messiah told them not to be caught up in the world.
 

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
Yeah, that's why Nietzsche proclaim god is dead. We're so far removed from Christianity that today we have shell that is an utter farcical reconstructed religion that itself is a reconstruction of a reconstruction. It hasn't been about what Jehovah or Jesus taught since the establishment of the Vatican and the Catholic Church. That was basically the attack that began a terminal series of being gutted and turned into a skin suit. And history does indeed show the the Church is very much prone to being caught up in the time of the World even though their Messiah told them not to be caught up in the world.

So you do not understand that spiritual-religious systems evolve from culture to culture and from person to person. You do not understand that people today may find great lessons in holy books of the past- and embrace them how they Will- to find meaning in their lives, enhance their culture and Weltanschauung, here and now, and still find ways to connect with their God(s)… whether it is on an ancient road with strong ties to the past and tradition, an emerging path more inclined towards change and exploration, or some combination of these things.

Humanity’s connection to God(s) remains strong. You may not approve of our methods… but your approval is not something we require.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
So you do not understand that spiritual-religious systems evolve from culture to culture and from person to person. You do not understand that people today may find great lessons in holy books of the past- and embrace them how they Will- to find meaning in their lives, enhance their culture and Weltanschauung, here and now, and still find ways to connect with their God(s)… whether it is on an ancient road with strong ties to the past and tradition, an emerging path more inclined towards change and exploration, or some combination of these things.

Humanity’s connection to God(s) remains strong. You may not approve of our methods… but your approval is not something we require.
I'm laughing them because they are judging others and being poor Christians.
And I know of very few who do the things he said to do.
 
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