9-11 conspiracy theories.. Osama innocent?

[Chisti]

I have a question for those who believe the official version. Wasn't it the same govt. that lied about WMD and started an illegal war? Surely, they're capable of lying about 9/11 as well?

 

[ninerbuff]

And I didn't know you were an expert in NYFD jargon. Which do you think is more likely?

- the NYFD were part of a conspiracy to demolish the buildings... a conspiracy that they were willing to give up their lives for, by demolishing the building while they were still inside it.

- "pull the building" simply meant "pull out"... i.e. "evacuate all personnel."

I never said the NYFD were involved in a conspiracy. And you don't find WTC 7 freefall demolition suspicious at all?

 

[washme]

Jeepers its sad how effective the media is in controlling peoples ideolgy of t world around them. I mean that people actually think osama did it??? I don't know if anyone mentioned this in an earlier thread but do you know what it takes to bring down a sky scraper? Lots of planning and lots of bombs!!!! The buildings should have bent sideways and collapsed at the point of impact where the structural steel was possibly compromised. Below the point of impact was still 40000 tons of structural steel which would not have buckled under the weight. The fact that those two buildings collapse next to eachother, PERFECTLY, shows it was a CONTROLLED DEMOLITION. Don't know how tim osman(bin laden) got in there and planted bombs???????? 9/11 was a mass sacrifice to lucifer by the freemasonic illuminati, george bush etc and a way to start a 'war on terror' inorder to control the middle east under the pretense of 'peace' so that millions of americans will shutup and buy macdonalds and bless george bush for protecting his people. Jeepers talk about brainwashing!!!! Its hectic!

 

[washme]

Next its the 'war on aliens'. I'm guessing the 2012 london olympics will be attacked by aliens and then the u.n will HAVE to set up bases all over the world to fight of the aliens. There arnt any aliens coz space is a cooking furnace. Ufos are military spacecraft controlled by magnetism. Area 51 etc is just a front for what's really going on: pseudo-scientific PROPAGANDA!!! If on-ones seen an alien how do we know they're little slimy green men?? But if hollywood makes a movie with little slimy green men then all of a sudden everyone knows what aliens look like, let alone that they even exist. I guess if satan, the father of lies didn't exist then the world would be a saner place for me to live in :-( :-D

 

[YmirGF]

I have a question for those who believe the official version. Wasn't it the same govt. that lied about WMD and started an illegal war? Surely, they're capable of lying about 9/11 as well?

Yeah, it was also the same government that couldn't organize its way out of a paper bag after Hurricane Katrina - but that same government orchestrated the greatest "take down" of all time. Have you heard the expression, "You can't have your cake and eat it too?" This is one of those times.

 

[Chisti]

Yeah, it was also the same government that couldn't organize its way out of a paper bag after Hurricane Katrina - but that same government orchestrated the greatest "take down" of all time. Have you heard the expression, "You can't have your cake and eat it too?" This is one of those times.

That was because they didn't want to, not because they couldn't.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I never said the NYFD were involved in a conspiracy.

You didn't? Just what are you trying to imply, then?

And you don't find WTC 7 freefall demolition suspicious at all?

It's certainly suspicious in the sense that it's evidence of an attack by terrorists, but no, I don't see anything in the collapse of WTC 7 that indicates it had a different ultimate cause than the other building collapses in the area that day, i.e. the combined effects of airplane strikes and the resulting fires.

 

[Revoltingest]

Jeepers its sad how effective the media is in controlling peoples ideolgy of t world around them. I mean that people actually think osama did it???

Just as we have no personal experience with Usama's role, we also have no experience with the claimed US plot to bring the buildings down.
All theories about it are judgment calls.

I don't know if anyone mentioned this in an earlier thread but do you know what it takes to bring down a sky scraper? Lots of planning and lots of bombs!!!!

Or a big enuf airplane hitting a building with the right kind of structural vulnerability.

The buildings should have bent sideways and collapsed at the point of impact where the structural steel was possibly compromised.

And that did happen. The deflection was just too small to see in videos.
The overall deflection wasn't the source of structural failure.

Below the point of impact was still 40000 tons of structural steel which would not have buckled under the weight.

"Buckling" due to weight wasn't the apparent failure mode, but rather impact loading on the attach points between floors & columns.

The fact that those two buildings collapse next to eachother, PERFECTLY, shows it was a CONTROLLED DEMOLITION.

Did you happen to notice the 2 airplanes hitting the buildings? That's a better explanation than a explosive
demolition, the preparation for which would've been noticed over the weeks of installation by the crew.

Don't know how tim osman(bin laden) got in there and planted bombs???????? 9/11 was a mass sacrifice to lucifer by the freemasonic illuminati, george bush etc and a way to start a 'war on terror' inorder to control the middle east under the pretense of 'peace' so that millions of americans will shutup and buy macdonalds and bless george bush for protecting his people. Jeepers talk about brainwashing!!!! Its hectic!

Anything to exculpate Muslim terrorists & indulge in a little BDR, eh?

I have a question for those who believe the official version. Wasn't it the same govt. that lied about WMD and started an illegal war? Surely, they're capable of lying about 9/11 as well?

Dishonesty in government isn't evidence of conspiracy theories though.
It's just their natural way of speaking.

 

[YmirGF]

That was because they didn't want to, not because they couldn't.

Ahhh. (I didn't see that answer coming.)

 

[blackout]

Usama/Osama was never on the FBI's most wanted list for 9-11.

I'm imagining he's no longer on their 'most wanted' list for anything now,
so a link to the FBI's most wanted- will now be useless in pointing this fact out.

I think the question of his innocence/guilt
should be taken up with them.

 

[Revoltingest]

Ahhh. (I didn't see that answer coming.)

I think Chisti was behind the attacks.
The top 10 reasons:
10) He has too much fervor about blaming Bush.
9) He knows of airplanes & explosives.
8) There's no evidence it wasn't him.
7) He never denied doing it.
6) He looks like that type.
5) It's possible that he's one of the illuminati.
4) He keeps a suspiciously low profile.
3) I've never seen his home....it could be a cave
2) The long beard he might have.
1) Some guy on the internet said so!

so many reasons cannot be ignored!

 

[ninerbuff]

You didn't? Just what are you trying to imply, then?

I was implying that the NYFD couldn't have set up the demolition. When Silverstein tell the NYFD to "pull it" to the NYFD it makes it indicate the that it's the NYFD who brought the building down. But we know that's not the NYFD's expertise.

It's certainly suspicious in the sense that it's evidence of an attack by terrorists, but no, I don't see anything in the collapse of WTC 7 that indicates it had a different ultimate cause than the other building collapses in the area that day, i.e. the combined effects of airplane strikes and the resulting fires.

Then we have a difference of opinion. To have 3 buildings in the same exact area fall vertically demolition style, especially since WTC 7 was never hit, indicates that to me that this could have been a set up. Our government has done some scandalous **** to meet their agendas. To me this gave Bush the authority he needed to wage war on "the evil empire" and for Silverstein to bolster a better position for himself.
IMO, people of power and greed have no conscience of others demises as long as they get what they are shooting for.

 

[Revoltingest]

I was implying that the NYFD couldn't have set up the demolition. When Silverstein tell the NYFD to "pull it" to the NYFD it makes it indicate the that it's the NYFD who brought the building down.

To me, it meant pull out of efforts to stem the fire & rescue.
You're saying the NYFD blew it up (even if someone else placed the explosives)?
I dare you to tell that to one of those guys.
Let's suppose that your interpretation of Silverstein's comment is that the NYFD was to demolish the building.
If that was an admission, then why has he subsequently denied it?

Then we have a difference of opinion. To have 3 buildings in the same exact area fall vertically demolition style.....

It might seem that way to people unfamiliar with structural failure modes.
So tell me....how did they set up the demolitions without notice by anyone?

IMO, people of power and greed have no conscience of others demises as long as they get what they are shooting for.

The same could be said of those with an agenda of implicating Bush & exculpating Muslim terrorists.
Is this proof that you are part of that conspiracy?
Nah....I'll stick with the simple explanation that planes hit buildings which were structurally vulnerable to that failure mode.

 

[ninerbuff]

To me, it meant pull out of efforts to stem the fire & rescue.
You're saying the NYFD blew it up (even if someone else placed the explosives)?
I dare you to tell that to one of those guys.
Let's suppose that your interpretation of Silverstein's comment is that the NYFD was to demolish the building.
If that was an admission, then why has he subsequently denied it?

No, I'm saying that's what SILVERSTEIN said. I KNOW the NYFD had nothing to do with the demolition of WTC 7.
Silverstein can deny it but even a FOX NEWS correspondent has evidence that Silverstein had called the insurance company asking to do a demolition on WTC 7. Now that may not be odd, but to be able to do it on the same day as 9/11 and within a few hours, where it takes at least a few days to coordinate such a drop is just suspicious.
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.co...urnalist-silverstein-wanted-demolish-wtc7-911

It might seem that way to people unfamiliar with structural failure modes.
So tell me....how did they set up the demolitions without notice by anyone?

Who said no one noticed. Go to section 4.3
did any WTC employees notice odd behaviors before 9/11 - Google Search

The same could be said of those with an agenda of implicating Bush & exculpating Muslim terrorists.
Is this proof that you are part of that conspiracy?
Nah....I'll stick with the simple explanation that planes hit buildings which were structurally vulnerable to that failure mode.

Bush was an inept president at best. Let guess that you don't think Bush didn't have an agenda against Saddam either?
I won't try to convince people about the oddities of 9/11, the point is to at least have some people openly look at some of the evidence that seems suspicious and may have some implications of coverup.

 

[Chisti]

Dishonesty in government isn't evidence of conspiracy theories though.
It's just their natural way of speaking.

Anything other than the official version is a conspiracy theory. You seem to have too much faith in politicians.

 

[Chisti]

I think Chisti was behind the attacks.

 

[Revoltingest]

Anything other than the official version is a conspiracy theory. You seem to have too much faith in politicians.

I have faith that politicians go thru a natural selection process which favors lying to us.

And we have a new number 1 reason that Chisti is behind it all! Even his smiley is eeeeeeeeeeeevill!

 

[Revoltingest]

No, I'm saying that's what SILVERSTEIN said. I KNOW the NYFD had nothing to do with the demolition of WTC 7.
Silverstein can deny it but even a FOX NEWS correspondent has evidence that Silverstein had called the insurance company asking to do a demolition on WTC 7. Now that may not be odd, but to be able to do it on the same day as 9/11 and within a few hours, where it takes at least a few days to coordinate such a drop is just suspicious.
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.co...urnalist-silverstein-wanted-demolish-wtc7-911

Your linked article isn't even a Fox News piece. Here is what your site says about itself...
"This site was born from a desire to expose America's fraudulent monetary system and the evil of charging interest on money loaned."
The "evil of charging interest"? This is just too looney to be worth a read.
You say that Silverstein admitted blowing up the buildings, & treat it as evidence, but then you deny his rebuttals that conspiracy
theorists we're misinterpreting what he said. You give him credibility when vague statements can be interpreted towards your
agenda, but then you ignore him when he later clearly denies your claim.

I got far enuf in the article to find this......
"2. As you observed (above), WTC 7 collapsed rapidly and symmetrically -- even though fires were randomly scattered in the building. WTC 7 fell about seven hours after the Towers collapsed, even though no major persistent fires were visible. There were twenty-four huge steel support columns inside WTC 7 as well as huge trusses, arranged asymmetrically, along with approximately 57 perimeter columns. (FEMA, 2002, chapter 5.) A symmetrical collapse, as observed, evidently requires the simultaneous “pulling” of many of the support columns. The Second Law of Thermodynamics implies that the likelihood of complete and symmetrical collapse due to random fires as in the “official” theory is small, since asymmetrical failure is so much more likely."

Invoking the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics where it wouldn't seem relevant without explaining why it matters strikes me as someone
desperately trying to "sciencify" his case by mere brandishment of technical terms. He fails to consider the actual structure & competing
theories of how it failed. It casts much doubt on everything else for me. It's like reading a lengthy creationist screed about of the
improbability of evolution....not worth my time. Did you read that stuff? If so, please explain to me how the 2nd Law applies.

Who said no one noticed. Go to section 4.3s
did any WTC employees notice odd behaviors before 9/11 - Google Search

Your link is just to a list of earch results.
Have a specific article in mind?

Bush was an inept president at best. Let guess that you don't think Bush didn't have an agenda against Saddam either?

Another incorrect guess. But you think "inept" Bush could've pulled off this masterful plot to bring down the buildings? You can't have it both ways....unless you think his ineptitude was an act of Machiavellian thespianism.

Ugh....I'll skip responding to the best. BDR fueled 9/11 conspiracy theories are just tar babies.

Some unsolicited advice:
If you really want to convince someone of the conspiracy, I suggest making a cogent argument using mutually respected news
sources for info, rather than goofballs whose main purpose is to fight paying interest on borrowed money. (Since I'm a lender,
I'll never buy into that deadbeat philosophy.) Then, debunk the ordinary view of structural failure by "pancaking" floors generating
high impact induced stress to cause a cascade of collapse.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I posted this in another thread but it's relevant here ...

Bin Laden statement from October, 2004:

"Let him [Bush] tell us why we did not strike Sweden, for example. It is known that those who hate freedom do not have proud souls, like the souls of the 19 people [killed while perpetrating the 11 September 2001 attacks], may God have mercy on them. We fought you because we are free and do not accept injustice.
...
I am amazed at you. Although almost four years have passed since the [11 September] incidents, Bush is still practising distortion and confusion. He also continues to conceal from you the real reason [for the 11 September attacks]. Thus, the motives still exist for repeating what happened. I will speak to you about the reasons behind these incidents. I will honestly tell you about the minutes in which the decision was made so that you will consider. I say to you that God knows that the idea of striking the towers never occurred to us. But, after things had gone too far and we saw the injustice of the US-Israeli alliance against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, I started thinking of that.
...
While I was looking at those destroyed towers in Lebanon, it occurred to me to punish the unjust one in a similar manner by destroying towers in the United States ...
We had agreed with the chief amir [leader - of the 11 September hijackers] Mohammed Atta that he should accomplish all the operations within 20 minutes before Bush and his administration could take notice. It never occurred to us that the supreme commander of the US armed forces would leave 50,000 of his citizens in the two towers to face those great horrors alone, at a time when they needed him badly. This is because it seemed to him that being preoccupied with the little child's talk about her goat and its butting was more important than being preoccupied with the planes and their ramming into the skyscrapers. This gave with three times the period required for carrying out the operations, praise be to God."

BBC News

Bin Laden statement from May 2006:

"I begin by talking about the honorable brother Zacarias Moussaoui. The truth is that he has no connection whatsoever with the events of September 11th, and I am certain of what I say, because I was responsible for entrusting the 19 brothers – Allah have mercy upon them – with those raids, and I did not assign brother Zacarias to be with them on that mission.
...
And among the things that confirm this fact is that the participants in September 11th were two groups: pilots and support teams for each pilot in order to control the aircraft. And since Zacarias Moussaoui was learning how to fly, it follows that he wasn’t component #20 from the teams which helped to control the airplanes ...
...the brother Moussaoui was arrested two weeks before the events, and had he known anything – however little – about the September 11th group, we would have told the brother Commander Mohamed Atta and his brothers – Allah have mercy upon them – to leave America immediately before their affair was exposed."

[Emphasis added]
The Gaurdian, UK
Full transcript: MSNBC

Bin Laden video in September 2006:

A tape of Osama bin Laden and other al Qaeda members purportedly preparing for the Sept. 11 attacks aired on the Arab TV station Al Jazeera Thursday.

The tape is said to have been filmed in Afghanistan. Al Jazeera said before airing the video that it was new and that it showed bin Laden personally and directly supervising the planning of the attacks. The video shows bin Laden sitting in a mountainous area surrounded by other men, including Ramzi Bin al Shiba and Abu Hafs al Masri. Al Shiba has never before been seen in a video with bin Laden. Two men who have been identified as 9/11 hijackers, Wael al Shahri and Hamza al Ghamedi, are also shown on the video. They are shown videotaping their wills.

ABC News, 2006

Is this enough to convict Bin Laden in a court "beyond a reasonable doubt"? It would depend on how he pleaded in court. If he confessed, as he has already done several times, he would be convicted. If he denied it, there might not be enough evidence to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" he helped plan the 9/11 attacks. But there would be plenty of evidence to convict him of other attacks. Then we must remember that in many tapes he encourages attacks and threatens attacks, which are crimes in themselves in many countries.

So we already know he's a criminal and a terrorist. And there's plenty of circumstantial evidence that he was involved in planning the 9/11 attacks in particular.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I was implying that the NYFD couldn't have set up the demolition. When Silverstein tell the NYFD to "pull it" to the NYFD it makes it indicate the that it's the NYFD who brought the building down. But we know that's not the NYFD's expertise.

Let's back up: what on earth are you talking about? What point are you trying to get at?

Then we have a difference of opinion. To have 3 buildings in the same exact area fall vertically demolition style, especially since WTC 7 was never hit, indicates that to me that this could have been a set up.

"Demolition style" is also "gravity style".

Our government has done some scandalous **** to meet their agendas. To me this gave Bush the authority he needed to wage war on "the evil empire" and for Silverstein to bolster a better position for himself.
IMO, people of power and greed have no conscience of others demises as long as they get what they are shooting for.

Wait... think about what you're insinuating and put it all together in a logically coherent hypothesis, taking into account as many implications as possible:

- the government engaged in a conspiracy to murder its own people.
- despite the massive scale required to carry out this conspiracy, the government managed to maintain complete silence of all the people involved for at least a decade so far.
- despite this unheard-of level of secrecy, a New York real estate investor somehow managed to find out about the conspiracy and was able to take advantage of it for personal gain.

- the conspirators decided to demolish the buildings (BTW - which buildings? Just WTC 7, or WTC 1 & 2 as well) with controlled demolition by explosives.
- despite having decided to destroy the buildings by explosives, the conspirators decided to fly airplanes into WTC 1 & 2 as "cover" for the operation... even though a terrorist attack with a static bomb would be much easier to fake, would create much less in the way of logistic problems, and would be quite plausible (since al-Qaeda had already attempted to take down one of the towers with a van bomb in the parking garage).
- despite the fact that certain buildings (again: which ones? Just WTC 7, or all of them?) were wired with explosives, nobody noticed.

Is all that a fair assessment of what you're suggesting?

Assuming it is, I want you to answer these questions:

- what signs would we expect if such a thing happened? What evidence would be present under this scenario, but not otherwise?
- Are these signs and evidence actually present?

Here's the big thing that, in my experience, the "truthers" overlook: establishing a conspiracy isn't just a matter of casting doubt on the official explanation. If you want to legitimately argue that an alternate hypothesis is correct, then it needs to be supported on its own merits. You would need to figure out what the predictions of that hypothesis would be and then demonstrate that those predictions match the evidence.