9 Simple Reasons for Any Rational Person to Reject Materialism

[atanu]

Atoms, in the molecules, in the cells, electrical activity...all in the organs in the groundskeeper.

All atoms in a body get replaced in short duration.

 

[Revoltingest]

All atoms in a body get replaced in short duration.

All things are temporary.

 

[atanu]

All things are temporary.

Yeah. Although, eminent scientists on board have given up defining ‘things’, I agree that all things must pass.

To be able to discern that all things pass, an unchanging knower is required,.

 

[Desert Snake]

Then please rephrase it, because in search of clarity I re-read what you'd posted and found it no help to understanding.
Do I understand you to argue that whatever you choose to believe is thereby objectively true? If so, that's so easily refuted (reduced to meaninglessness) as not to be worth worrying about.

By that I mean that at least my understanding of 'truth' offers an objective verification.

I hope I've misunderstood you and await your clarification.

There is no 'objective truth'. That phrase makes no sense. We have subjective truths, and of course if I've determined something to be true, it is 'truth', to me. You're understanding of truth offers no more objective evidence in the example I gave, than the example. That's why I used that example as opposed to a completely non comparitive perception of truth. You have blurred the lines between speculation and objective truth, and instead of realizing that what you really are talking about is personal perception, or personal truth, you think that your personal truth must be disproved, as an objective truth, an impossibility; and not how we argue things.

 

[blü 2]

There is no 'objective truth'. That phrase makes no sense.

The statement "It is not raining here at the moment" is either true or false. We can check which by seeing whether at that moment it's raining or not. That is, we can get objective verification of the truth or falsity of the statement.

(Whereas the statement "1 + 1 = 2" is a statement about abstractions, concepts without a real counterpart, and in such a case 'true' has the different meaning 'correct according to the rules of the system'.)

We have subjective truths, and of course if I've determined something to be true, it is 'truth', to me.

If you think it's raining, and I show you it's not, how do you proceed?

Given 1 + 1 = 2 according to standard decimal arithmetic, if I assert that 1 + 1 = 3 in that system, how do you correct me?

 

[Desert Snake]

The statement "It is not raining here at the moment" is either true or false. We can check which by seeing whether at that moment it's raining or not. That is, we can get objective verification of the truth or falsity of the statement.

(Whereas the statement "1 + 1 = 2" is a statement about abstractions, concepts without a real counterpart, and in such a case 'true' has the different meaning 'correct according to the rules of the system'.)
If you think it's raining, and I show you it's not, how do you proceed?

Given 1 + 1 = 2 according to standard decimal arithmetic, if I assert that 1 + 1 = 3 in that system, how do you correct me?

Whether it is raining out, or not, isn't the same thing as asserting materialism.

 

[blü 2]

Whether it is raining out, or not, isn't the same thing as asserting materialism.

The test for truth is however the same. So how do you test for truth the statement 'It's raining here at the moment'? And how do you test the correctness of the statement 'In arithmetic base 10, 1 + 1 = 3'?

Talk me through your truth- and correctness-testing methods ─ I confess that I don't understand what you've said so far, which has largely been about what your methods are not.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

This does not explain the Prosperity Gospel..

Since the so-called ' Prosperity Gospel ' is Not a scriptural teaching then I find it is a false teaching.
Jesus forewarned us at Matthew chapter 7 that MANY would come ' in his name ' but prove false to him.
Rather, Jesus taught to disown oneself, and as his NEW commandment at John 13:34-25 indicates we should have the same self-sacrificing live for others as he has.

Jesus taught to endure to the end at Matthew 24:13. Meaning the end of one's life, or end of wickedness on Earth when Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among person's of goodwill. That is the coming time when Jesus establishes world-wide peace, and that is the beginning of his 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth. Then, according to Revelation 22:2 there will be ' healing ' for earth's nations. Not just for those of us still alive on Earth at that time, but a happy-and-healthy resurrection back to live life on Earth for billions who never have the opportunity to learn about Jesus.

 

[paarsurrey]

Simple Reasons for Any Rational Person to Reject Materialism

Materialism is not a Revealed Religion , it is a man-made religion. To err is human, and if one person can make an error, many persons that make a world view can make errors as many times, please. Right, please?
Regards

 

[tayla]

What is materialism? It is known as other things like material reductionism and physicalism among others. It is the view that only one substance exists – matter – and that all reduces to matter. This is a faith-based position that is spreading wildly through the West as a reaction to oppressive Western religions. It is philosophically unsound and has no supporting evidence.

Yes, this is a very well articulated summary of the topic.

 

[tayla]

The “evidence” for materialism is that doing something to the brain effects how consciousness comes through.

Yes, I think this is merely an assumption of materialism; that if there is correlation between the brain and consciousness, therefore, consciousness *is* material.

 

[tayla]

The Law of Identity is the most basic and foundational law of logic and states that things with different properties cannot be identical – “A is A and not Non-A”.

I doubt that logic and reason can prove things in the spiritual realm. For example, using logical arguments to prove the existence of God is not helpful; such arguments can't prove such a thing.

I agree that materialists don't mention the subjective experiential aspect of consciousness. They don't seem to think it is needed; all you have to do is call it an illusion or an emergent property, and the question is magically answered. But placing something in a mental category explains nothing.

 

[tayla]

Our own conscious experience is the one thing we know directly, and everything else we know of depends on us being conscious beings. This includes matter. So to reduce consciousness to matter reduces the one thing we know with certainty to something that we know through it. This is unreasonable.

Yes, a key argument. The scientific method requires the scientist, and their mental powers of observation and analysis.

 

[tayla]

Things like cognitive science prove the mind can override the brain.

I'm sure materialists can argue against this kind of evidence. I think, however, that the evidence is valid.

But a more important question: If the subjective consciousness affects matter, what is the mechanism? No one has explained this satisfactorily yet.

 

[tayla]

The mind is actually capable of manipulating nature, even changing it to suit its will.

Yes. I've been wondering about the interaction of information with consciousness and with the universe. Seems some views of quantum mechanics and entropy emphasize the role of information. The ink on paper encodes information, and DNA encodes information. What is the mechanism of this and the role of non-material consciousness?

 

[tayla]

Movies or music are another good example as they exist as ideas before they even become “reality”.

Apparently, the brain state changes a moment *before* we become conscious of something, or before we *choose* to do something. It's as if the non-conscious mind chooses and then, after the fact, informs the consciousness, which then adds it to its subjective experience. Maybe the conscious experience even falsely believes it *chose* when, in fact, the underlying mental processes actually did the choosing.

 

[tayla]

Materialism also relies on the faith in future discovery. “Maybe one day we will find the mechanism that makes consciousness.” “Maybe one day we will explain how the subjective arises from the objective”. And maybe not. This is blind faith and nothing more.

I wouldn't mind if materialists thought this if they had the humility to admit that, maybe, just maybe, materialism was false in certain domains. But they always assume it's true no matter what. Sounds like religious faith in which every fact always proves it, if you can just find a way to explain it properly.

 

[tayla]

For example it pretends to be a skeptical position but relies on the senses and puts what we know aside for what we know through it. This is the exact opposite of skepticism, and skepticism and materialism are mutually exclusive.

Yes, it seems materialists haven't considered philosophy much. They don't seem to realize that the scientific method arises from philosophy, *not* from science. Such questions as truth and how it can be known, and what it is that experiences the knowing.

 

[tayla]

Further, belief that individuals are deterministic machines with no control over their lives would make any kind of mental/behavioral healthwork impossible.

I think this objection can be resolved via the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics. Determinism is invalidated by quantum mechanics, and I think many scientists would agree. Maybe they would say there is no conscious will dictating the future, but the randomness from the wave function collapse would be unpredictable.

 

[Koldo]

Yeah. Although, eminent scientists on board have given up defining ‘things’, I agree that all things must pass.

To be able to discern that all things pass, an unchanging knower is required,.

Not really. Not even in principle.
A changing knower along with something that keeps track of the changes could do it just fine.