A British talk to muslim scholar!!

[beenie]

Badran people like you give me hope for the future of Islam

Me too.

 

[lunakilo]

The second one makes the case that an arbitrary rule to cover up female means to keep it safe for the male and that anyone that does not cover up is "dirty" like the other candy. While a candy that has already been opened is clearly more susceptible to the bacteria on the hand, whether or not you cover your body/hair does not add any stain to a person. This view of the people around you and judging their 'cleanliness' on how they dress is unreasonable and frankly extremely superficial.

And I am wondering where the clean men are.

I want one with the wrapping still on!

 

[Photonic]

Is it true that in Islam that a woman is only worth half as much as a man?

I'm asking because i'm not sure if all Muslims believe this, or whether it's a belief that only certain societies embrace.

Unfortunately no Muslim society sees women as equal in one way or another.

 

[Badran]

Unfortunately no Muslim society sees women as equal in one way or another.

You're basing this on what exactly?

 

[Photonic]

You're basing this on what exactly?

Calm friend, it applies to many other societies too. But your own belief system necessitates a certain degree of separation of the sexes. You are absolutely free to prove me wrong but your own holy book is on my side. I'm sure there are plenty of contradictions you could point out to me to prove me wrong though. Just as in the Bible.

Are there specialized Muslim societies where women have the absolute same freedoms as men you would like to point out? I would be quite interested in learning about them.

 

[gnomon]

A British man came to muslim scholar and asked…
‘Why is it not permissible in Islam for women to shake hands with a man…?’

The Scholar replied…
‘Can you shake hands with Queen Elizabeth…?’

British man said…
‘Of course not… there are only certain people who can shake hands with Queen Elizabeth…’

Scholar said…
‘Our women are queens and queens do not shake hands with strange men…’

Then the British man asked the Scholar again…
‘Why do your girls cover up their body and hair…?’

The Scholar smiled and got two sweets…
he opened the first one and kept the other one closed…
He threw them both on the dusty floor and asked the British…
‘If I asked you to take one of the sweets which one will you choose…?’

The British replied…
‘The covered one…’

The Scholar said…
‘That’s how we treat and see our women…’

Don't be offended if that story sounds horrible.

Here's a better story:
Two monks were returning to the monastery in the evening. It had rained and there were puddles of water on the road sides. At one place a beautiful young woman was standing unable to walk accross because of a puddle of water. The elder of the two monks went up to a her lifted her in his alms and left her on the other side of the road, and continued his way to the monastery.

In the evening the younger monk came to the elder monk and said, "Sir, as monks, we cannot touch a woman ?"

The elder monk answered "yes, brother".

Then the younger monk asks again, " but then Sir, how is that you lifted that woman on the roadside ?"

The elder monk smiled at him and told him " I left her on the other side of the road, but you are still carrying her "

 

[Badran]

Calm friend, it applies to many other societies too.

I'm not angry, but i don't take kindly to such generalizations.

But your own belief system necessitates a certain degree of separation of the sexes.

What does this certain degree of separation has to do with equality? And what does your interpretation of a certain teaching in my belief system has to do with your claim? Do you propose then that all Muslims interpret the religion the same way? Or follow it the same way?

Or that even all Muslims in Muslims societies properly follow their understanding of Islam to begin with? Since you said "Unfortunately no Muslim society sees women as equal in one way or another", that means all of them without exception view women this way, according to their religion (based on what you added now in this post).

You are absolutely free to prove me wrong but your own holy book is on my side.

I'll wait for when you actually provide something in support of what you said. Which by the way doesn't include supposed meaning of verses from the Quran, since that doesn't cover your claim.

I'm sure there are plenty of contradictions you could point out to me to prove me wrong though. Just as in the Bible.

Yes yes making claims sure is easy. Feel free to make a thread about supposed contradictions in the Quran.

Are there specialized Muslim societies that women are more free than men that you would like to point out?

More free? You're kidding right?

How would that be equality?

 

[Photonic]

I'm not angry, but i don't take kindly to such generalizations.



What does this certain degree of separation has to do with equality? And what does your interpretation of a certain teaching in my belief system has to do with your claim? Do you propose then that all Muslims interpret the religion the same way? Or follow it the same way?

Or that even all Muslims in Muslims societies properly follow their understanding of Islam to begin with? Since you said "Unfortunately no Muslim society sees women as equal in one way or another", that means all of them without exception view women this way, according to their religion (based on what you added now in this post).



I'll wait for when you actually provide something in support of what you said. Which by the way doesn't include supposed meaning of verses from the Quran, since that doesn't cover your claim.



Yes yes making claims sure is easy. Feel free to make a thread about supposed contradictions in the Quran.



More free? You're kidding right?

How would that be equality?

It is late here, give me a break about the last line. I edited it to make it more like I wanted to say.

As for support, I leave you with the following;

“Say to the believing men that they cast down their glances (gazes) and guard their chastity, that is more pure for them. Indeed Allah is well aware of what they do (30) And say to the believing women to cast down their glances and guard their chastity and reveal not their adornment except that which must appear, and let them draw their veils around their garments over their chests and not reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons, their husbands’ sons, or believing women, or what their right hands possess of women, or male servants (eunuch) proven free of sexual desire, or young children who have no sense of the private parts…(31) (24:30&31)

I left in the part about men because it's important to see where the distinction lies.

"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters, as well as all believing women, that they should draw over themselves some of their outer garments: this will be more conducive to their being recognized and not annoyed.(33:59)"

I will leave the Hadith's out because I said your Holy Book.

Also note I said societies, not individuals. I refuse to accept that there are no individual Muslims that do not completely adhere to such conformity.

 

[Badran]

It is late here, give me a break about the last line. I edited it to make it more like I wanted to say.

Thats okay i understand, we all mis-state what we mean sometimes

As for support, I leave you with the following;

“Say to the believing men that they cast down their glances (gazes) and guard their chastity, that is more pure for them. Indeed Allah is well aware of what they do (30) And say to the believing women to cast down their glances and guard their chastity and reveal not their adornment except that which must appear, and let them draw their veils around their garments over their chests and not reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons, their husbands’ sons, or believing women, or what their right hands possess of women, or male servants (eunuch) proven free of sexual desire, or young children who have no sense of the private parts…(31) (24:30&31)

I left in the part about men because it's important to see where the distinction lies.

Before i address what you object to in this (if i do), i feel i need to point out again that this doesn't result in what you said to follow, for more than one reason. Like i said, for starters how do you know how that all Muslim societies interpret this in a way similar to the way you interpreted it to mean, or take from it what you took from it?

And how do you know that all Muslim societies follow all aspects of their religion properly (assuming this does result in women being inferior for the sake of the question)?

"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters, as well as all believing women, that they should draw over themselves some of their outer garments: this will be more conducive to their being recognized and not annoyed.(33:59)"

I will leave the Hadith's out because I said your Holy Book.

Okay, but i'll wait until you answer my questions first before addressing the verses.

Also note I said societies, not individuals. I refuse to accept that there are no individual Muslims that do not completely adhere to such conformity.

That certainly makes a difference. However i fail to see how you can make such broad generalization about those societies in general (in other words that in all of them, the majority can not view women as equals in anyway).

 

[Photonic]

Thats okay i understand, we all mis-state what we mean sometimes



Before i address what you object to in this (if i do), i feel i need to point out again that this doesn't result in what you said to follow, for more than one reason. Like i said, for starters how do you know how that all Muslim societies interpret this in a way similar to the way you interpreted it to mean, or take from it what you took from it (which i'm sure is actually quite different based on the fact that i find nothing object-able in the verse, or indicating that women are not equals to men or are inferior in anyway)?

And how do you know that all Muslim societies follow all aspects of their religion properly (assuming this does result in women being inferior for the sake of the question)?



Okay, but i'll wait until you answer my questions first before addressing the verses.



That certainly makes a difference. However i fail to see how you can make such broad generalization about those societies in general (in other words that in all of them, the majority can not view women as equals in anyway).

I may have over generalized, but note that I did not say they view women as inferior, just as being separated in their rights.

 

[Badran]

I may have over generalized, but note that I did not say they view women as inferior, just as being separated in their rights.

Ah, okay. I can actually understand where you're coming from now. Note though that the over generalization and the fact that you were replying to the question about women being supposedly worth half as much as men contributed to my misunderstanding.

Regarding your point, the fact that men and women have different obligations in certain parts in Islam, doesn't necessarily mean that they're not equal. They're both unique in some areas, and based on that it might be understandable if some obligations or requirements differ.

It is clarified in the Quran that they are both equal. We do not come to any conclusions (not all of us of course) based on these different requirements in certain departments that either is superior to the other in rights, and that is reaffirmed like i said by the fact that its clarified in the Quran that they're both equal.

 

[Photonic]

Ah, okay. I can actually understand where you're coming from now. Note though that the over generalization and the fact that you were replying to the question about women being supposedly worth half as much as men contributed to my misunderstanding.

Regarding your point, the fact that men and women have different obligations in certain parts in Islam, doesn't necessarily mean that they're not equal. They're both unique in some areas, and based on that it might be understandable if some obligations or requirements differ.

It is clarified in the Quran that they are both equal. We do not come to any conclusions (not all of us of course) based on these different requirements in certain departments that either is superior to the other in rights, and that is reaffirmed like i said by the fact that its clarified in the Quran that they're both equal.

Lol, sorry I can see how that may have come up now.

I'm not blind, I've read the Qu'ran, I know that women's equality is guaranteed by scripture. But it still seems to me a contradiction to ascribe a certain manner of dressing to women in that light.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Some Muslims can be so backward ...

TRENTON, N.J. -- A Manhattan artist who once won a settlement for going topless in New York City must keep her top on at the Jersey shore.

A state appeals court Wednesday ruled against Phoenix Feeley's challenge to Spring Lake's public nudity ordinance.

Feeley was fined $750 for sunbathing topless on the beach and for dropping her top after her release in 2008.

The court dismissed her argument that the town's public nudity ordinance discriminated against women because men are permitted to appear topless. The court says "restrictions on the exposure of the female breast are supported by the important governmental interest in safeguarding the public's moral sensibilities."

Feeley received a $29,000 settlement in 2007 after she was charged briefly with indecent exposure in New York City in 2005. [source]

then again ...

 

[Badran]

Lol, sorry I can see how that may have come up now.

I'm not blind, I've read the Qu'ran, I know that women's equality is guaranteed by scripture. But it still seems to me a contradiction to ascribe a certain manner of dressing to women in that light.

I can understand the possibilities as to why you may think so. If its because you think this is supposed to be enforced by people, its not. That is, this is God's requirement from women, not meaning that they shouldn't be allowed the right to not abide by it (at least in most Muslim's view).

If its because you think the requirements in general should be the exact same, i fail to see how that is possible or even why that should be the case when they are unique in some areas. Or is it because of a third reason that i haven't thought of?

 

[Photonic]

I can understand the possibilities as to why you may think so. If its because you think this is supposed to be enforced by people, its not. That is, this is God's requirement from women, not meaning that they shouldn't be allowed the right to not abide by it (at least in most Muslim's view).

If its because you think the requirements in general should be the exact same, i fail to see how that is possible or even why that should be the case when they are unique in some areas. Or is it because of a third reason that i haven't thought of?

I guess I'm just blaming society in general for restrictions on freedoms where restrictions aren't really necessary.

 

[gnostic]

I don't pay much attention to the Queen or the British royal family. However, if I remember it correctly, the media have shown her shaking hands with complete strangers in public places, like hospitals, even some among the crowd who watch her on the streets.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't pay much attention to the Queen or the British royal family. However, if I remember it correctly, the media have shown her shaking hands with complete strangers in public places, like hospitals, even some among the crowd who watch her on the streets.

I think the ironic thing with the OP is that he's trying use the Queen as a justification for putting restrictions on women, but it would be a major taboo for someone to tell the Queen that she's not allowed do something.

 

[Photonic]

I think the ironic thing with the OP is that he's trying use the Queen as a justification for putting restrictions on women, but it would be a major taboo for someone to tell the Queen that she's not allowed do something.

Yea I mean they told her to pay taxes in 1992 and look what happened!

 

[crocusj]

thinly veiled misogyny.

Clever... ish. (you know, for a......oops, in a hole, stopped digging)

 

[crocusj]

A British man came to muslim scholar and asked…
‘Why is it not permissible in Islam for women to shake hands with a man…?’

Should have stopped him right at the word "permissable".