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A Bunch of Reasons Why I Question Noah's Flood Story:

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
- The geological record simply does not support the idea of a "world wide flood".
- The fossil record does not support the idea of a "world wide flood".
- There should be a layer of massive death of modern animals and that evidence should be found worldwide; which of course, we don't see.
- The Ark was too large to be seaworthy. (SEE Wyoming (schooner) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). The rough seas would have twisted the Ark apart.
- The altitude to Mt. Everest places temperatures at a range of -15 to -30 Degrees Fahrenheit. Noah and his animal companions would have frozen to death.
- The altitude of Mt. Everest places an oxygen level insufficient for sustaining life. Noah and his animal companions would have asphyxiated, provided the cold didn't get them first.
- It would have taken years, possibly decades, for these animals to reach the Ark, passing through environments for which they would be ill suited. Their survivability at taking such a journey ranges from impossible to highly unlikely.
- Land plants would have been under water for a full year, causing their death and extinction. Thus, exiting the Ark, the herbivores would have been bereft of all food, causing their extinction as well.
- Coming off the Ark, the hungry predators would have done what predators do; hunt for food; in which case most prey would have immediately gone extinct.
- 2 of each kind exiting the ark causes insufficient genetic diversity. The inbreeding would have caused severe genetic defects.
- Repopulating the earth with their species could have only been accomplished with highly accelerated and unnatural reproduction rates.
- Conservative estimates for species on board the ark would have been: 17,400 birds; 12,000 reptiles; 9,000 mammals; 5,000 amphibians; 2,000,000 insects: 8 zookeepers are expected to care for such a large number of animals is beyond the realm of believability.
- Placing such large numbers in this confined area would have left no room for food and supplies. A pair of elephants, alone, would require 365,000# of food; and we haven't even gotten to the water yet!
- Even with the sheer bulk of the foodstuffs put aside, what are further problems of highly specialized diets of some species and the problem of food rotting without the benefit of modern methods of preservation.
- We would expect to find remains of animals where those animals do not belong in their movements across the world. We do not find Penguin remains or Kangaroo remains in Europe.
- In making the crossing, many of the animals would have needed a land bridge to cross large bodies of water. No such land bridges exist, nor is there any evidence of such land bridges ever existing.
- Changes in water temperature, pressure, sunlight filtration, salinity and ph balance. The flood would have devastated most aquatic life.
- The RMS Titanic has the dimensions of: 175' H, 882' L, 92' W and steel construction; yet it's capacity was 3,547 people and enough provisions for 2-3 weeks. The Ark's dimensions are supposedly 45' X 450' X 75' of wood construction; yet was expected to house over 50,000 animals, millions of insects, 7 people, a 600 year old man and enough provisions for a year ....
- The Rainbow itself is another mystery; the Rainbow is an optical illusion caused by the refraction of light; in other words, Physics. Thus, we are expected to believe that the physics of light behaved differently before the flood than they do now.
- Many parasitic organisms cause disease (Mosquitos, Tapeworms), which would have further severe implications on the survivability of such a voyage..
- Then, we have the problem of deciding where that incredible mass of water came from.
- Then, we have the problem of deciding where that massive mass of water went.
- Science has discovered many genetic bottlenecks among many species, including the Cheetah, the Human Being (Homo Saipien), Elephant Seals, American Bison, European Bison and many others. If such an event were to have occurred, we would have seen genetic bottlenecks of all species (which we don't see) happening at approximately the same time (which we don't see) being about 10,000 years ago (which we don't see).

And that is far from all of the problems in accepting a literal interpretation of Noah's Ark ....

So if you can believe ... or even question ... whether or not there was really a world wide flood from 6 to 10 thousand years ago, then you have not questioned the tale or are unwilling to do so.
Wow, this is quite a Gish!

You started this thread back in May?
Grief! I just found it last night.

Almost Every piece of evidence you posted, would be valid and irrefutable, if we were discussing a catastrophe that was caused by natural mechanisms.

But is that what the Genesis account says? The waters deluged the Earth, by natural means only? No.

So, by trying to show how the Noachian Flood contradicts what we have learned about natural evidence, you’re taking God’s role completely out of the picture! But it’s an integral part. Even for an allegorical understanding.

Somebody responded above, somewhat sarcastically, saying “Goddidit”.

Well, didn’t He?

In fact, I think every Flood story says that. (Or, at least, their god - or a god - was the cause.)

There’s quite a few.
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Wow, this is quite a Gish!

You started this thread back in May?
Grief! I just found it last night.

Almost Every piece of evidence you posted, would be valid and irrefutable, if we were discussing a catastrophe that was caused by natural mechanisms.

But is that what the Genesis account says? The waters deluged the Earth, by natural means only? No.

So, by trying to show how the Noachian Flood contradicts what we have learned about natural evidence, you’re taking God’s role completely out of the picture! But it’s an integral part. Even for an allegorical understanding.

Somebody responded above, somewhat sarcastically, saying “Goddidit”.

Well, didn’t He?

In fact, I think every Flood story says that. (Or, at least, their god - or a god - was the cause.)

There’s quite a few.
So ... God magic did it?
Isn't that a convenient way to not have to actually explain anything.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Wow, this is quite a Gish!

You started this thread back in May?
Grief! I just found it last night.

Almost Every piece of evidence you posted, would be valid and irrefutable, if we were discussing a catastrophe that was caused by natural mechanisms.

But is that what the Genesis account says? The waters deluged the Earth, by natural means only? No.

So, by trying to show how the Noachian Flood contradicts what we have learned about natural evidence, you’re taking God’s role completely out of the picture! But it’s an integral part. Even for an allegorical understanding.

Somebody responded above, somewhat sarcastically, saying “Goddidit”.

Well, didn’t He?

In fact, I think every Flood story says that. (Or, at least, their god - or a god - was the cause.)

There’s quite a few.

The origin of Genesis Noah and the Flood, ultimately derived from the Sumerian sources, where the flood hero was named Ziusudra (eg Eridu Genesis, the Death of Bilgames), via from Old Babylonian period (eg Epic of Atrahasis, Epic of Gilgamesh), to the Middle Babylonian period (eg Epic of Gilgamesh), and to the Neo-Assyrian and Neo-Babylonian (eg, again Epic of Gilgamesh), which were contemporary to the kingdoms of Israel and Judah.

The Jews wrote their own version, during their captivity in Babylonia, adapting the Assyrian-Babylonian story of Utnapishtim (from the Epic of Gilgamesh) when they started Noah’s story for Hebrew readers or audience.

Before the Babylonian Exile period, there are no Hebrew story of Noah, and definitely not in the Middle Babylonian period (the 2nd Babylonian dynasty, or the Kassite dynasty of Babylon, 1595 - 1160 BCE), which was when the story of Gilgamesh and Utnapishtim,
  • spread east (eg fragments of Epic of Gilgamesh were found in Susa, Elam),
  • and west (eg Megiddo in Canaan, Ugarit in northwest Syria, Hattusa in the Hittite kingdom, Amarna in Egypt).
So the Late Bronze Age Canaanites would have known about Babylonian story of Utnapishtim and the Flood, since damaged clay tablets were found in the Bronze Age archives of palace in Megiddo.

There are hundreds of other tablets, along with the Epic of Gilgamesh, dated between 15th and 14th centuries BCE. There are no contemporary Hebrew Genesis or the Exodus in this period, a supposed time of when the Israelites have already settled in Canaan, according to the books of Joshua and Judges.

This tell me, no exodus from Egypt (eg Exodus), and no invasion of Canaan, nor the Battle of Jericho (eg Joshua)...which mean there are no Hebrew writings existing in the Late Bronze Age (1550 - 1050 BCE), hence no Moses and no Joshua.

As to the historicity of the Genesis Flood.

There are not only no geological evidence for global flood pointing to single date, where there should be every continents in the world, there are no consistent archaeological evidence that destruction of cities by flood water pointing to the single date of the alleged flood.

For instances, the cities of Uruk (Erich in Genesis 10), Ur, and Kish, Nineveh, Assur, etc, in Mesopotamia, Susa in Elam, Memphis, Abydos, Nekhen in Egypt, Harappa in Pakistan (one of the most important sites of the Indus Valley Civilization) - they all predated 2340 BCE (the proposed date of Genesis Flood), and none of showed flood evidence pointing a single date (eg 2340 BCE).

If the global flood did happen, then these Bronze Age cities would have evidence of flood.

The crazy creationists think floods remove all trace of evidence, which are the exact opposite in science: destruction from floods actually create evidence, especially in cities.

For instance, in the Sumerian city of Shuruppak, they found evidence that flood occurred in Shuruppak, because of flood deposits, which dated to 2900 BCE. Euphrates flooded the city, that was more devastating than previous flooding that occurred almost annually.

Flooding on the Euphrates and Tigris occurred annually, which Sumerians knew how to take advantages of, because it provide water that irrigated their farmlands, and erosions from the rainfalls among the Anatolian and Armenian highlands, brought fertile loams (soils for farming) into the Mesopotamia. But the flood around 2900 BCE was more destructive than usual.

What occurred in Shuruppak, became the source of the legend of Ziusudra. Ziusudra would become Atrahasis and Utnapishtim in the next millennium. The Old Babylonian Epic of Atrahasis, narrated a river flood, not a global flood. But by the time, of Genesis composition in the 6th century BCE, the river flood became global flood, and the 7 days of rainfalls became 40 days. Genesis Flood is a perfect example of embellishing previous legends into massive mythological distortion.
 
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rational experiences

Veteran Member
Science human taught human theories human storyteller first.

As natural life natural family nature lived balanced.

Science didn't exist.
Designer of science innocent spiritual natural man. Agreed in group brothers as men. All human thesis.

Builds design of man pretending he is a creator. He owns all science status statements. Has to apply calculus to claim measuring of all things.

Wants to change earth by gases...heavens.
Wants to change earth by mass into gases into energy gain.

Products of man's science.

We live after the ice age. History on earth huge massive mass reactions destruction. In earths past.

Pretty basic liar man's preceding psyche advice about life on earth. Very dangerous the advice.

Ice melts ice re freezes. Ice said man is science earth gods saviour.

As snap freeze of instant form was holding instant form. As earth had been heated mass attacked. Thesis cooling of the mass hence kept its presence.

Ice is the gods saviour. Taught. Ignored.

Saviour thesis.

I live as ice supports my life.

Hears old mans pyramid sciences. Recorded Ai. Designer caused by men of old. Destroyed all life burnt it to death in combustion. Back to ash.

Study new thesis told man of old was a satanist. Meaning a scientist.

Decides to rebuild the technology anyway.

Rationally were you science man being rational by theist advice?

Not at all.

So raining by flood we all know is because huge water ground mass gets taken up into the heavens. It rains as gases are unnaturally burning.

The flame above our head. Water baptised us in safety.

It cools the spirit. So we don't get burnt to death. Pretty basic science advice.

Hence ice was an earth body notated saviour.
Flooding was taught to be a life saviour also.

Relativity it evaporates rains floods as a large gas mass is unnaturally burning. As raining should be gentler as the state natural evaporation..

Hence if a human said the flood saved life on earth only leaving two origin human parents DNA plus three adult newly created pairs. Plus all animals.

You would realise oh animals own a lesser amount of expressed DNA. Humans must have lost a large DNA existing. As healthy human life gone.

In humans life form.

Rationality DNa left as numbers man's maths had come out of the wilderness. Meaning man had conjured the flood by science cause.

Now you were mutated and less intelligent. After the fact. You begin to evolve and heal. AI records visionary begin to emerge telling you gods messages. About earths history science changed.

So you begin to teach the information in the best capacity of an irradiated consciousness. Lesser intelligent.

Pretty basic...so why be ignorant of past human living status after nuclear science includes the avedic memory also had nucleated life in UFO ark attacks?

Which fallout causes kept attacking a long time after the event.

Flooding in the attacked countries was apparent. As increase of the desert where science began as origin practice took their water survival away.

As the base technology was Egyptian first. Egyptian hieroglyphics proves they took technology advice into other countries.

As water shifted it's mass as the supported realisation. The origin scientists lost their nature garden and lifestyle.

Humans told you life in irradiated desert region then only reached the average age of forty years. Nuclear mutated as it's atmosphere cooled by iced conditions only...no rain.

As forty days of water mass evaporation changed their continent. And saved other continents instead.

Is the history no man is God never give God that never owned a name in creation a name ever again teaching.

If humans think self a miracle by returning human life in evolution atmospheric cooling then egotism proves it has surely fooled you all.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
So ... God magic did it?
Isn't that a convenient way to not have to actually explain anything.
First off, it was God’s *power* — not magic.


I’ve explained quite a lot. Especially regarding facts that have weak or unknown explanations, like why Pleistocene megafauna — some discovered in an extremely well-preserved state — are encased deep within the Permafrost across the Northern continents…
Or how to explain the missing volume of the GC, all 4.17 trillion cubic meters of it…
Or why many festivals of the dead are held on or near the “17th day of the 2nd month” of diverse civil and cultural calendars…
Or in explaining why there are so many Flood legends, even from cultures in landlocked & arid regions, detailing a ‘world destruction’….
Why do so many diverse & unrelated cultures, having no connection with each other - Norse, Hindu, Greek, etc. - share a common theme of the gods cohabiting with women & producing offspring? (Common themes in unrelated legends many times find their origins in actual events.)
And how did Moses, who wrote Genesis, know that the Ark’s ratios of 30:5:3 provided for a stable vessel, the ratios of which are used in modern shipbuilding?
Fortunate guessing?
 
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tas8831

Well-Known Member
And how did Moses, who wrote Genesis, know that the Ark’s ratios of 30:5:3 provided for a stable vessel, the ratios of which are used in modern shipbuilding?

What are the dimensions of a cruise ship?
Oasis-class cruise ship
Class overview
Length
360 m (1,181 ft 1 in) overall
Beam
47 m (154 ft 2 in) waterline 60.5 m (198 ft) extreme
Height
72 m (236 ft 3 in) above water line​

Nope.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
First off, it was God’s *power* — not magic.


I’ve explained quite a lot. Especially regarding facts that have weak or unknown explanations, like why Pleistocene megafauna — some discovered in an extremely well-preserved state — are encased deep within the Permafrost across the Northern continents…
Or how to explain the missing volume of the GC, all 4.17 trillion cubic meters of it…
Or why many festivals of the dead are held on or near the “17th day of the 2nd month” of diverse civil and cultural calendars…
Or in explaining why there are so many Flood legends, even from cultures in landlocked & arid regions, detailing a ‘world destruction’….
Why do so many diverse & unrelated cultures, having no connection with each other - Norse, Hindu, Greek, etc. - share a common theme of the gods cohabiting with women & producing offspring? (Common themes in unrelated legends many times find their origins in actual events.)
And how did Moses, who wrote Genesis, know that the Ark’s ratios of 30:5:3 provided for a stable vessel, the ratios of which are used in modern shipbuilding?
Fortunate guessing?
Given that you can't explain it or describe any mechanisms involved, it amounts to the same thing as magic.
You can't use science and then just invoke God power when you run into a wall and can't explain anything anymore. Because "God power" isn't an explanation with any explanatory power whatsoever.

The rest of this has nothing to do with this discussion and frankly, is all addressed very easily in a comparative religions course. Finding common themes throughout human history indicates nothing more than the fact that human beings have always had common experiences, common interests, common needs, common goals, etc. that are reflected through our societies and cultures.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
So ... God magic did it?
Isn't that a convenient way to not have to actually explain anything.
When it comes down to it, that is ALL the creationists have. Sure, they put on a façade of scientific credibility - but what SJ Gould said about Morris' hydrodynamic sorting hypothesis holds for all creationist claims to some extent (paraphrased)-
"When you know a little science, what they say seems reasonable. When you know a LOT of science, you can see how much nonsense it is."
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The origin of Genesis Noah and the Flood, ultimately derived from the Sumerian sources, where the flood hero was named Ziusudra (eg Eridu Genesis, the Death of Bilgames), via from Old Babylonian period (eg Epic of Atrahasis, Epic of Gilgamesh), to the Middle Babylonian period (eg Epic of Gilgamesh), and to the Neo-Assyrian and Neo-Babylonian (eg, again Epic of Gilgamesh), which were contemporary to the kingdoms of Israel and Judah.

The Jews wrote their own version, during their captivity in Babylonia, adapting the Assyrian-Babylonian story of Utnapishtim (from the Epic of Gilgamesh) when they started Noah’s story for Hebrew readers or audience.

Before the Babylonian Exile period, there are no Hebrew story of Noah, and definitely not in the Middle Babylonian period (the 2nd Babylonian dynasty, or the Kassite dynasty of Babylon, 1595 - 1160 BCE), which was when the story of Gilgamesh and Utnapishtim,
  • spread east (eg fragments of Epic of Gilgamesh were found in Susa, Elam),
  • and west (eg Megiddo in Canaan, Ugarit in northwest Syria, Hattusa in the Hittite kingdom, Amarna in Egypt).
So the Late Bronze Age Canaanites would have known about Babylonian story of Utnapishtim and the Flood, since damaged clay tablets were found in the Bronze Age archives of palace in Megiddo.

There are hundreds of other tablets, along with the Epic of Gilgamesh, dated between 15th and 14th centuries BCE. There are no contemporary Hebrew Genesis or the Exodus in this period, a supposed time of when the Israelites have already settled in Canaan, according to the books of Joshua and Judges.

This tell me, no exodus from Egypt (eg Exodus), and no invasion of Canaan, nor the Battle of Jericho (eg Joshua)...which mean there are no Hebrew writings existing in the Late Bronze Age (1550 - 1050 BCE), hence no Moses and no Joshua.

As to the historicity of the Genesis Flood.

There are not only no geological evidence for global flood pointing to single date, where there should be every continents in the world, there are no consistent archaeological evidence that destruction of cities by flood water pointing to the single date of the alleged flood.

For instances, the cities of Uruk (Erich in Genesis 10), Ur, and Kish, Nineveh, Assur, etc, in Mesopotamia, Susa in Elam, Memphis, Abydos, Nekhen in Egypt, Harappa in Pakistan (one of the most important sites of the Indus Valley Civilization) - they all predated 2340 BCE (the proposed date of Genesis Flood), and none of showed flood evidence pointing a single date (eg 2340 BCE).

If the global flood did happen, then these Bronze Age cities would have evidence of flood.

The crazy creationists think floods remove all trace of evidence, which are the exact opposite in science: destruction from floods actually create evidence, especially in cities.

For instance, in the Sumerian city of Shuruppak, they found evidence that flood occurred in Shuruppak, because of flood deposits, which dated to 2900 BCE. Euphrates flooded the city, that was more devastating than previous flooding that occurred almost annually.

Flooding on the Euphrates and Tigris occurred annually, which Sumerians knew how to take advantages of, because it provide water that irrigated their farmlands, and erosions from the rainfalls among the Anatolian and Armenian highlands, brought fertile loams (soils for farming) into the Mesopotamia. But the flood around 2900 BCE was more destructive than usual.

What occurred in Shuruppak, became the source of the legend of Ziusudra. Ziusudra would become Atrahasis and Utnapishtim in the next millennium. The Old Babylonian Epic of Atrahasis, narrated a river flood, not a global flood. But by the time, of Genesis composition in the 6th century BCE, the river flood became global flood, and the 7 days of rainfalls became 40 days. Genesis Flood is a perfect example of embellishing previous legends into massive mythological distortion.
Thanks for posting this as in Torah study some years ago, we accessed a Jewish archaeologist's seminar on this exact thing and pretty much drew the same general position you have. And a tablet on the Babylonian narrative was found in northern Israel that confirms that at least some Israelites knew of these accounts.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
..Genesis Flood is a perfect example of embellishing previous legends into massive mythological distortion.

Yes .. the Qur'an confirms the basic narrative of Noah's Ark, and confirms that Noah is a prophet.
It does not explicity tell us that the whole world was flooded though.

I personally doubt that it was.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Thanks for posting this as in Torah study some years ago, we accessed a Jewish archaeologist's seminar on this exact thing and pretty much drew the same general position you have. And a tablet on the Babylonian narrative was found in northern Israel that confirms that at least some Israelites knew of these accounts.
In the Late Bronze Age archaeology, I don’t think the Israelites were distinguished from the Canaanites, culturally...

...not in the artefacts (eg styles in arts and pottery) they left behind, not different languages and writing systems, and not even with religions.

Although, there was a monotheistic religion in Egypt, during the reign of Akhenaten in the 2nd quarter of 14th century BCE, there are no evidence that Bronze Age Canaan ever have monotheism.

Even if there were “Israel”, they appeared no different from any other Canaanites during this period in history, and since there are no biblical texts in the Late Bronze Age, there are really no way to tell.

In fact, the archaeological evidence showed that the Canaanite culture were also no different from the city of Ugarit (now called Ras Shamra in northwest Syria), even having the same pantheon as the Canaan.

Though, like ever other Late Bronze Age nations in the the Levant and the Hittite kingdom, used the writing system - the cuneiform - which originated from 3rd millennium BCE (actually late 4th millennium BCE cuneiform inscriptions were found in Uruk, c 3300 BCE in the Uruk period (c 4000 - c 3100 BCE), before Sumerian proper, eg Jemdet Nasr culture, c 3100 - c 2900 BCE), the spoken Ugaritic language could be more similar to Amorite than Canaanite.

The Hebrew or “Jewish” don’t seem to exist until after the formation of the 2 kingdoms - Israel and Judah, and there was strict monotheism until the second half of the 7th century BCE, with the reign of Josiah of Judah.

Anyway, since we cannot distinguish Israelites from Canaanites, then what may have been “Israelite” might have known about Utnapishtim from the very popular Epic of Gilgamesh, as early as the 15th-14th centuries BCE. But with no contemporary Hebrew texts in this period, it is hard to say what these “Israelites” know about Babylonian flood story...

...but the Canaanite Megiddo certainly did know, since they possessed the Epic during that time.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
In the Late Bronze Age archaeology, I don’t think the Israelites were distinguished from the Canaanites, culturally...
I also tend to lean in that direction, but I'm not going to bet my house on it.

...not in the artefacts (eg styles in arts and pottery) they left behind, not different languages and writing systems, and not even with religions.
Reminds me when my wife joined me on a "dig" at the edge of the highlands near Jerusalem, and she dug up a pottery shard bigger than my hand that she showed the head archaeologist, and he said it was likely Roman because their pottery tended to be more ornate.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
First off, it was God’s *power* — not magic.


I’ve explained quite a lot. Especially regarding facts that have weak or unknown explanations, like why Pleistocene megafauna — some discovered in an extremely well-preserved state — are encased deep within the Permafrost across the Northern continents…
Or how to explain the missing volume of the GC, all 4.17 trillion cubic meters of it…
Or why many festivals of the dead are held on or near the “17th day of the 2nd month” of diverse civil and cultural calendars…
Or in explaining why there are so many Flood legends, even from cultures in landlocked & arid regions, detailing a ‘world destruction’….
Why do so many diverse & unrelated cultures, having no connection with each other - Norse, Hindu, Greek, etc. - share a common theme of the gods cohabiting with women & producing offspring? (Common themes in unrelated legends many times find their origins in actual events.)
And how did Moses, who wrote Genesis, know that the Ark’s ratios of 30:5:3 provided for a stable vessel, the ratios of which are used in modern shipbuilding?
Fortunate guessing?
Men who in design as science infer measures.

Man the designer is not any God.

Built temples machines pyramid and encased it's pressure.

Study pyramid said water pump was internal streaming water over the casement of the pyramid.

Earth as O stones mass is not floating on a water body to be buoyant as a stone planet in cosmic status is it. O God the planet.

Yet your science machine themes all inferred cosmic or earth stone laws that no machine even owned. And no machine was a little planet earth.

So is your ego ever going to accept why you are a proven designer liar as a theist machine builder as not God the planet.

As God did not build the ark.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Yes .. the Qur'an confirms the basic narrative of Noah's Ark, and confirms that Noah is a prophet.

Noah, his ark and the flood have been known centuries before Muhammad and the Qur'an, and what the prophet and scripture have to say, don’t mean much to anyone, except to Muslims and Baha’i.

I don’t believe in the story of Gabriel teaching Muhammad, reciting the Qur'an. Muhammad’s claim is merely say-so and hearsay, that no one can verify his claim of meeting Gabriel.

As a work of religion, the Qur'an, it is a fundamental core teaching of Islam, I have no doubt how important to Muslims.

As a work of literature, only Muslim and Baha’i would consider it a masterpiece, and I doubt its importance to the believers, but I personally find it average, and the writing style confusing and lacking in cohesion.

As a work of history, it is no better than the Bible, mixing myths (like Creation and Flood narratives) with only a tiny fraction of historicity. And all the Quran confirm is that Muhammad was perpetrating the same myth as the Genesis.
 
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muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
.
I don’t believe in the story of Gabriel teaching Muhammad, reciting the Qur'an. Muhammad’s claim is merely say-so and hearsay, that no one can verify his claim of meeting Gabriel.

..that is your prerogative..

..all the Quran confirm is that Muhammad was perpetrating the same myth as the Genesis.

It is a more recent revelation than Genesis. It has been memorised by Muslims for 1500 years in its original Arabic.

A "local flood" makes a lot more sense to me, and I would imagine that 1000's of years ago [ when the myth originated ] , people would not have known what "a global flood" would have even meant :)
 

gnostic

The Lost One
It is a more recent revelation than Genesis. It has been memorised by Muslims for 1500 years in its original Arabic.

A "local flood" makes a lot more sense to me, and I would imagine that 1000's of years ago [ when the myth originated ] , people would not have known what "a global flood" would have even meant :)

Flooding occurring all the times, whether it be local or regional floods, and we know from recent history, just how devastating they can be.

And there are many different types of floods, big or small, eg torrential rains, flash floods, river floods, and floods that include wind and rain, like tropical storms, hurricanes, etc, and flooding caused by tides, such as post-quakes that can cause tsunamis.

Now I have read the Qur’an too, I know that Muslims interpret Noah’s Flood as more local.
No one would deny just how much damages and lost of lives that a single flood can cause.

You say local flood make more senses to you.

But there are major flaws as for the local flood.

One. Noah is prophet. So he would know how large the flood, and when the flood would start.

Two. The Ark itself is a problem.​

I don’t think any Muslims, including yourself see the problems with flood being local.

If Noah knew when and where the flood occurred and he knew the size of the flood, then he could easily move his entire family plus livestock to safe location away from the flood-affected region.

Definitely easier than building a large vessel. The Ark would be time-consuming and resource-consuming.

So the Quran’s version of local flood, building the Ark would be unnecessary and senseless, which would make the Quran senseless.

According to Genesis, Noah had the revelation about the flood when he was 500 years old, and he boarded the ark at age 600.

That would mean Noah have 100 years to build the ark, gather supplies and animals before the rain started...according to Genesis.

But if according to the Quran, the flood was local, and he still have 100-year warning, then he would have 100-year head-start of moving his family out of harm’s way.

In ancient time, people can travel great distance in 1 year, in 5 or 10 years.

Take for instance, Alexander the Great, he traveled from Macedonia (334 BCE) with his army through Asia Minor, through Palestine to Egypt, where he spent a winter, then traveled from Egypt, to defeat the Persian army at Gaugamela (330 BCE). All those series of battles and sieges before reaching Babylon took only a little over 4 years.

And for him to travel from Macedonia (334 BCE) to Indus River and then back to Babylon (323 BCE), where he died, he basically traveled more than half of Asia just over 10 years.

Noah didn’t have an army, so Noah could have gone anywhere in the Asia, to avoid a local flood. Travelling on foot, for 10 years, would have allowed Noah and family to reach China, if he wanted to.

So a local flood in Quran don’t make any sense, especially if he was to build the Ark. This would mean God and Muhammad being irrational that still required Noah to build his Ark for much smaller local flood. It would make god a bloody idiot, if he was the true author of the Quran.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
But there are major flaws as for the local flood.
One. Noah is prophet. So he would know how large the flood, and when the flood would start.

Two. The Ark itself is a problem..​

A prophet only knows what God has revealed to him. He can't see the future.

If Noah knew when and where the flood occurred and he knew the size of the flood, then he could easily move his entire family plus livestock to safe location away from the flood-affected region.

Definitely easier than building a large vessel. The Ark would be time-consuming and resource-consuming

The flood could have been covering a very wide area, and naturally God could have told Noah to move to a different place.
..but He didn't. He told him to build a ship.
The animals on it weren't so much as to preserve the species, but for Noah & co. , when the flood had finally subsided. :)

You are entitled to think that scriptures are "stupid" etc, but I see that they are far from that.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
In vision Multi gained I saw earth as a planet completely flooded. It was felt as if I was with someone else a male and I was above it looking down at it.

Water memory spirit memory would prove it knew.

Recording is no different to watching tv. The status earth products involved. Cooled.

So if you never owned science and thought about its practice...purpose ...wants. then to discuss men you need to begin in a conscious thesis about man's theism.

Where it came from how he concluded human advice to practice science.

Origin earth converted mass cold gas no light owned crystalline face converted to dusts. Crystal mass melted also. Two termed conversions caused to mass. The theme science visionary was based on this advice.

Conditions. O God earth... Light was introduced.

Science of man theoried owning controlling light in heavens. Yet the heavens dealt with gases alight burning as the string of a cosmic reason why gas was alight in earths heavens existed.

Not science in any human historic reference theory. First advice theists lie.

The first condition reason for the state recording was given to God and no man could ever own it.

Ignored. The first earth mass conversion. The state to record created in the history conversion between sun mass to earths mass..

Which proves how wrong you are scientist.

The statement science and God was inferred to memory only without owning the reactive mass that allowed information to exist. Recorded. Recorded advice taught science.

From a cold changed place man of science decided to practice earth conversion. Claiming it safe not on natural history. Just where he personally existed.

Which is lying.

So prophetic determined advice said he inherited not science by thesis but natural reactive cosmic history. In the end. What he had not theoried about or for. Original advice.

As science was only based identified on man humans want.

To qualify I am informed and spiritually intelligent now. Intelligence was never science as he did not own the mass reaction.

So he taught I caused small floods
I caused the mountain face to be scorched burnt blackened. Clouds mass veiled the mountain.

Muhammad psychic advice. Angel voice heard and mountain attacked.

Rained non stop atop mountains cooling ark UFO hit Ararat for forty days. Cooling the mountains mass.

Yet mountains prove a mass disintegration of their face occurred at the feet of the mountain. Mass had shifted.

The theme calculus as science was based on time shift earths mass. Was not theoried for machine.

Theory machine was only ever man's built design. Another lie in science.

Meanwhile technology owner lost their atmospheric rain and garden in Egypt the desert mass increased. Could only survive irradiated alive for about forty years of age.

Was relative advice of causes.

Mummies prove life went bald had to wear wigs. Life was sick. History natural on earth human were first parents were brother sister not the reason for weakened DNA. Irradiation of life was.

Not even thought about.

Flooding then became a scientific human taught law of relativity. Still earth flooding was accrued UFO effect introduced by second Jesus asteroid attack about 1000 years ago had not yet voided vacuum shut off.

As sciences attack in temple destruction was stopped machine overheated. Also not thought about. Nature made it shut off.

Was known advice.

As 0 AD attack void vacuum shut it off was stopped.

Rome refused to stop using temple technology rebuilt then was hit by asteroid break up burnt. Why everyone was so angry at them. As the advice was proven exact to the old advice.

Hit again in Rome burnt Nero time changed location by space causes 1000 years later shroud kept as evidence. As was human Saint body to prove you don't come back from being dead.

The history reason of survival was void vacuum removal. Flooding from ice the saviour sacrificed. Life lived on.

Ice gods saviour.
Flooding then became another saviour.

Relativity earth heavens advice.

2012 was predicted to be irradiation of earths end shut off attack by Satan star advice. Russia last hit.... Nuclear science never allowed it to shut off. Men in science now own expected earth attacks.

Thinks it's a public secret.

One status science of the past never owned was machine nuclear cooling as a practice.

Father said the only reason why predictive heaven change then changed. As earth radiation released changed its ancient model.

Man of science learnt in design to implement cooling which temple pyramid was never successful with.

Known as men's direct scientific advice in thinking.
 
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