A Challenge

[islamcity]

another thing i find extremely convenient:

how is it that god/jesus, mohammad etc. all chose to reveal themselfes in the "dark ages" only?in times of abundant ignorance, where impressionable people, unable to find answers to the simple questions in life, simply patched the gaps with supernatural ideologies?

i mean, the all knowing god, surely knew that humanity would advance to a technological point where life images could be captured/recorded, stored, and replayed over and over. he would have known that we would get to a point where live streaming video could be transmitted throughout the whole world. and yet, knowing all this, he still chose to reveal himself in a time where all the proof we had was "word of mouth" and "paintings"

dont you find it funny how god doesnt personally reveal himself to people anymore? i mean, whatever happened modern day "road's to damascus"? what about talking donkeys and sexy serpents tempting you with fruits? people getting swallowed by big fish,and spat out days later unharmed?

is it just me, or do you also find these things rather convenient?

When mankind was in the depths of the Dark Ages, God sent the final Messenger, Prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him the last of 24 000 prophets) to redeem humanity. The revelation to Prophet Muhammad and the book of Allah the quran, represents the ultimate and permanent source of guidance for mankind. Both sunni and ****e muslims believe based on saying of the prophet mohamad that the last source of guidance to our modern age would the mahdi, who just like all other prophets will redeem humanity. I am no scholar but probably one of the main reasons for most revelations being revealealed durring the early stages of life was to put humans on the right path from the beggining, so they may be guided at the beginning just like a baby growing, you give it the most amount of care at a young age so it may grow to be stong and smart.
"what about talking donkeys and sexy serpents tempting you with fruits? people getting swallowed by big fish,and spat out days later unharmed?"( i dont see your point or what you er trying to say, please elborate on your words)

 

[cristheseeker]

I am an agnostic, but I will accept this challenge.

Everything is the evidence of God's existence. Or to put it more precisely, the WAY existence exists, is the evidence that existence itself is the result of some governing intelligence, will, and purpose. Were this not so, existence would logically express only chaos. Yet it does not. Existence expresses order, and limitation, and a balance between chance and pre-destiny, with the result of a maximization of variety. As many things that are able to exist according to the laws governing existence, do exist.

The fact that existence HAS laws, is evidence of [God]. That those laws result in a purpose (increased variety) is yet further evidence. Logic therefor mandates that the source of this order and purpose be acknowledged. And in most languages, the term for this mysterious source would be "God".

existence does not have laws. existence simply IS. the laws that we have for it are simply descriptive laws that are based on existence, not the other way around...

you see, people dont look at a map and say

"wow, how did those rivers conform to the exact state borders? there must have been a creator who designed them to flow right on or alongside our borders"


so just like with the rivers in these examples, nature as a whole does not have laws, it simply is, therefore nature does not require a creator or designer.


besides, going by your logic, god himself, being as complex as he is, must have had a designer or creator himself.

 

[Eddy Daze]

For all intents and purposes I will group Atheists and Toothfairy Agnostics together under Atheists because they are essentially the same thing (toothfairy agnostics say that due to the omnipotent properties of god he/she/it could exist but it is so unlikely that it doesn't, that they dont worry about it...like the toothfairy)

There are two issues I would like to bring up, though these are old news to most, it seems like some people need a reminder.

Issue One)

Atheists have a tool in their belt they call the scientific method. The method of reason. One of the most crutial parts of the scientific method is evidence. If Religions try to use the scientific method for God, they fall short in that category.

Issue Two)

Logic. If Religion would like to use this tool of Philosophy then then there are things that the arguers need to remember. Namely, you cannot pick and choose which rules you think are applicable to your arguement. If you decide to use Logic then all of the rules apply, even the ones that defeat your arguement.

Most common rule that is wrongly applied is the rule of proof of existence. Which, put simply, is: it is up to the person to prove that something exists not for the others to prove that this something doesn't exist. Logically this is true for God, Thor, toothfairies, and anything else you care to say exists.

The tool in religions belt is the definition of God. Omnipotence. He could make these things exactly as they are with no evidence of himself if he wanted.

The main reason for my thread is this: In logic, I consider a bad arguement for the side you believe in is worst than a good argument for the opposite side. Which leads me to my Challenge.

Provide evidence to the existence of God, or a sound arguement as to why he exists. or admit to an illogical unproven god.

Or

If evidence turns up, Admit to there being a god and carry out your life appropriately.

Cheers

Many scriptures have eyewitness acounts, and eye witness acounts of God and his actions are still happening today so the onus of proof of non existence is needed.

What do these people think the ultimate source of everything is? considering that we and life itself comes from that source? that would be magic pixies and sky fairies if the qualties we have are not contained within the original source. Think!!

 

[islamcity]

Thanks for digging that up.

My problem with the philosophy of this is a guy i knew from university. He was 19, had a GPA of 6.5 and really has a lot to offer the world. He was nice, people enjoyed his company. I can't see how he fulfilled his purpose in this life. His life was just getting started.
Yet we see people who are 60 and 70 surviving cancer to sit in a bed all day. Sure thats good, but they've lived, the young man had not. How would God justify that? Was he just angry that day and decided to inhibit mankind?

My claim is valid because don't you attribute everything to God? Why would God give a 19 year old cancer? Why would God let him die and a 70 year old live? Is he teaching us that life is not fair? Where is the lesson in taking yet another life of something who had so much to live for?

The reality of the situation is for such a perfect God why is his influence on us so random, so unjustifiable? Why are there so many stock arguements for what im asking such as:

"they're enjoying God's love"
"its gods will"

Is it God's goal to pain us? To make us suffer?

How do you know that that person you are talking about was going to be any good in the future, you have no means of telepathy or mindreading, fortune telling of some sort to tell what this person is going to be after 10, 20, 30 or even 4o years, i can be good one day and bad another, dont i have the choice, this is why we belive in islam all has given us the mind and the right to choose between right and wrong, to do the good or bad, and has also given us the evidence to believe in him. I could be a muslim one day and an aethiest the next, can you or anyoune else stop me from doing so. You simply can not make assumtions and predictions of what will happen in the future based on what you see now. In the dark ages no one new there would be laptops, phones or computers in 2009.
"Is it God's goal to pain us? To make us suffer?". No. Is it the government's goal to make us suffer and be in pain due to our wrong doings or mischief such as murder, or drink driving. For every crime there is a punishment and for every punishment there is a reason. Different people with deifferent sins would recieve different punishments..
is it just me or do you also find these things rather confusing?:rainbow1:

 

[cristheseeker]

When mankind was in the depths of the Dark Ages, God sent the final Messenger, Prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him the last of 24 000 prophets) to redeem humanity. The revelation to Prophet Muhammad and the book of Allah the quran, represents the ultimate and permanent source of guidance for mankind. Both sunni and ****e muslims believe based on saying of the prophet mohamad that the last source of guidance to our modern age would the mahdi, who just like all other prophets will redeem humanity. I am no scholar but probably one of the main reasons for most revelations being revealealed durring the early stages of life was to put humans on the right path from the beggining, so they may be guided at the beginning just like a baby growing, you give it the most amount of care at a young age so it may grow to be stong and smart.

let me ask you this. around what year did muhammad walk the earth? because going by your logic(example with the baby) , the time muhammad walked the earth must have been the(or very close to the) beginning of humanity.

so im trying to figure out how old you think planet earth(or the humanity on planet earth) is.

"what about talking donkeys and sexy serpents tempting you with fruits? people getting swallowed by big fish,and spat out days later unharmed?"( i dont see your point or what you er trying to say, please elborate on your words)

i was referring to the bible stories

 

[islamcity]

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let me ask you this. around what year did muhammad walk the earth? because going by your logic(example with the baby) , the time muhammad walked the earth must have been the(or very close to the) beginning of humanity.

so im trying to figure out how old you think planet earth(or the humanity on planet earth) is.







i was referring to the bible stories

Yous see, you extracted one part of my speech and put it in your own context, if you recall i mentiones there 124,000 prophets before mohamad(peace be upon him) your mere misundersting gave you such interpretations.:yes:

 

[cristheseeker]

Yous see, you extracted one part of my speech and put it in your own context, if you recall i mentiones there 124,000 prophets before mohamad(peace be upon him) your mere misundersting gave you such interpretations.:yes:

ah, i see. nonetheless, my question still stands. based on islam, about how old do you think humanity and or planet earth is?

 

[emiliano]

cristseeker.
As is has been said, God has made His Grace available to all of humanity, that is Salvation, where do you people gets this from? “i know that according to christianity, our purpose in life is to give praise to god” your purpose in life is to seek the Kingdom of God and to live a righteous life. Mat 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added to you.
And this:

so in other words god created us with the simple purpose of giving him praise and honor (basically stroking his ego, or making himself feel good about himself), and if we dont, if we choose to ignore him, he punishes us with eternal suffering in hell.

All rational beings are attracted to what is good and God is supremely good, in His presence we find peace, rest and happiness, some are elect to have this even in the midst of this world though Faith a loving gift from God, we are given Hope that He is the Almighty creator of all there is, and the creator of a kingdom were there will be none of the disturbances (sins and temptations) that we are subjected to in our earthly passage, if you reject His kingdom you will not be in it, you will be in somebody else’s kingdom, you would have punished yourself.

based on that i can draw the conclusion that if god really does exist, he is a selfish egomaniac who doesnt really care wether we suffer or not, so he chooses to remain neutral to our lifes and let nature take its course.

But you have been told and told again, but choose to reject His kingdom and you are a double looser for it “and all these things shall be added to you” you say: thats why life doesnt seem fair” how is that? You don’t want His kingdom and He does not force it down your throat, there is nothing fairer than that.

 

[PureX]

existence does not have laws. existence simply IS. the laws that we have for it are simply descriptive laws that are based on existence, not the other way around...

you see, people don't look at a map and say

"wow, how did those rivers conform to the exact state borders? there must have been a creator who designed them to flow right on or alongside our borders"


so just like with the rivers in these examples, nature as a whole does not have laws, it simply is, therefore nature does not require a creator or designer.

That's complete rubbish.

The river you mentioned has a set of characteristics that cause it to behave in certain ways, and not to behave in other ways, in response to the terrain it passes through. Those characteristics define the river's nature. Those characteristics are how we recognize and define the river in relation to the terrain it passes through. Likewise, the terrain also has it's own nature, also based on a set of characteristics unique to it that are also used by ourselves to define it against other physical phenomena. Limitations, juxtaposed against the 'white noise' of chaos are how we recognize and define our experience of existence. They create the definitions of being that we use every moment of our lives to understand the environment in which we live, and they are the essence of our 'logic'.

Everything that exists is energy expressing itself. Yet energy cannot express itself in any and every way. If it could, the nature and character of existence would be total chaos. The expression of energy is limited to only certain ways. And because the expression of energy is limited, the way energy expresses itself becomes ordered. We can recognize that order. We can see the limitation of the expression of energy against the backdrop of chaos, and therefor recognize the different characteristics of the way energy expresses itself: rivers, mountains, life, and time.

It is the act of recognizing these limitations, and the orders they produce, that is the foundation of human logic and reason.

besides, going by your logic, god himself, being as complex as he is, must have had a designer or creator himself.

I have posed nothing of the sort, and nothing in my logic would lead us to this conclusion.

 

[Seven]

You don’t want His kingdom and He does not force it down your throat, there is nothing fairer than that

I wonder, emiliano, what is the fate of those who choose not to accept his kingdom?

 

[darkendless]

How do you know that that person you are talking about was going to be any good in the future, you have no means of telepathy or mindreading, fortune telling of some sort to tell what this person is going to be after 10, 20, 30 or even 4o years, i can be good one day and bad another, dont i have the choice, this is why we belive in islam all has given us the mind and the right to choose between right and wrong, to do the good or bad, and has also given us the evidence to believe in him. I could be a muslim one day and an aethiest the next, can you or anyoune else stop me from doing so. You simply can not make assumtions and predictions of what will happen in the future based on what you see now. In the dark ages no one new there would be laptops, phones or computers in 2009.
"Is it God's goal to pain us? To make us suffer?". No. Is it the government's goal to make us suffer and be in pain due to our wrong doings or mischief such as murder, or drink driving. For every crime there is a punishment and for every punishment there is a reason. Different people with deifferent sins would recieve different punishments..
is it just me or do you also find these things rather confusing?:rainbow1:

I do find these things confusing. As an Australian i hear a lot of Christian preaching. They always say it was God's will to do this and that. When we see the bushfire victims ( i dont know if youve seen the carnage?) and preachers saying it was God's test to you. Why though? Why would God make us suffer? To me it seems strange how people attempt to justify what they percieve as God's plan for us. This is hurting my head lol

With the case of my associate, all i have to base my point on is what i have seen. He was a great person. I don't know what he would have done, i don't know if he was going to be nice all his life. No one does. We can only live in the now.

 

[Kathryn]

As the great CS Lewis said, "THERE IS NO WHAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN - THERE IS ONLY WHAT IS."

 

[PureX]

I do find these things confusing. As an Australian i hear a lot of Christian preaching. They always say it was God's will to do this and that. When we see the bushfire victims ( i dont know if youve seen the carnage?) and preachers saying it was God's test to you. Why though? Why would God make us suffer? To me it seems strange how people attempt to justify what they percieve as God's plan for us. This is hurting my head lol

With the case of my associate, all i have to base my point on is what i have seen. He was a great person. I don't know what he would have done, i don't know if he was going to be nice all his life. No one does. We can only live in the now.

It's because of these kinds of questions that I realized I must separate my concept of God from the various superstitious religious concepts of God that I was hearing about all around me. That left me alone to seek my own idea of "God", which in the end I believe was very useful.

 

[Kathryn]

However, isn't changlessness a characteristic of the Christian God? I don't know about you, but there seems to be a whole lotta changin' going on between the OT and the NT.

God doesn't change - man's perception of Him changes. Not just man as a group, but man as the individual. My understanding of God and His work in my life has developed and continues to "change."

Just as your understanding of ice, water, and steam changed over time. When you were a baby, you had no concept of the fact that all three were H20.

Surely, God can control how he is perceived. Why would he want faulty perceptions of himself to be placed in his own holy book?

God allows us free will, and He allows man to make mistakes. If we didn't make mistakes, faith would not be necessary.

There's a difference between what God "wants" and what God "allows." And before you jump off into "Why would God ALLOW some of the things He allows????" I want to remind you of my dog example. Who are we to challenge God's wisdom?

Sure, and at one point, people believed that when Moses came down from the mountain he had horns; apparently, it was a miss-translation of the word "shining".
At one point, Christianity defended tooth and nail against the idea that the Earth was not the center of the universe, because it contradicted what they thought the Bible taught.
To this day, people still believe that the "mark of the beast" is 666, when it there is far more evidence that it is actually 616.
Additionally, as you yourself point out, there are those who take the Genesis account literally, and those who take it allegorically.

The point being, it is not like tenets of your religion are immune to changing theories. It is not changeless, and even among yourselves, you are not consistent.

You are absolutely right - HUMAN THEORIES AND BELIEFS are inconsistent and ever-changing - both religious and scientific theories, which proves that MAN'S UNDERSTANDING of this world is notoriously limited by his brain and character.

At least science has a way of discovering flaws within the body of its "beliefs", and a way of correcting them once they are discovered. Science is not meant to be stagnant; it is meant to be ever evolving, ever discovering. I would think that is preferable to a belief system that is historically antagonistic to change.

You just stated several examples of ways that Christianity has "changed." Face it - both religious and scientific groups (and some people belong to both groups) shift their beliefs based on continuing "revelations" or discoverings. Like I've said, it's not elemental Truth or God who changes - it's our level of understanding (or lack thereof) of Him.

So you look at creation and see its beauty and complexity and think "A Creator must have done this". Well, should not the Creator be even more beautiful and complex than the creation? If the Creator, in his infinite complexity, was able to "just exist", how much more so should the universe, in its finite complexity, just be able to exist?

This is a lovely string of words but I don't see much logic there - just another question from a dog on it's way to the vet.

No offense intended - I consider myself much like my dog going to the vet as well.

 

[emiliano]

I wonder, emiliano, what is the fate of those who choose not to accept his kingdom?

They miss out big time offcourse.

 

[Luminous]

they dont get their selfish desires granted of course

 

[Luminous]

another thing i find extremely convenient:

how is it that god/jesus, mohammad etc. all chose to reveal themselfes in the "dark ages" only?in times of abundant ignorance, where impressionable people, unable to find answers to the simple questions in life, simply patched the gaps with supernatural ideologies?

i mean, the all knowing god, surely knew that humanity would advance to a technological point where life images could be captured/recorded, stored, and replayed over and over. he would have known that we would get to a point where live streaming video could be transmitted throughout the whole world. and yet, knowing all this, he still chose to reveal himself in a time where all the proof we had was "word of mouth" and "paintings"

dont you find it funny how god doesnt personally reveal himself to people anymore? i mean, whatever happened modern day "road's to damascus"? what about talking donkeys and sexy serpents tempting you with fruits? people getting swallowed by big fish,and spat out days later unharmed?

is it just me, or do you also find these things rather convenient?

♫"windmills, windmills, falling skies"♫ all bring closure to our minds.

 

[cristheseeker]

i have yet to see some good creationist arguments in this thread.

 

[cristheseeker]

That's complete rubbish.

The river you mentioned has a set of characteristics that cause it to behave in certain ways, and not to behave in other ways, in response to the terrain it passes through. Those characteristics define the river's nature. .

wrong!. humans define those characteristics by observing a river. those characteristics are "DESCRIPTIVE" since they describe the river, not "PRESCRIPTIVE" because the river does not FOLLOW those "CHARACTERISTICS" . THE RIVER DOES WHAT IT DOES REGARDLESS, it just seems like it follows our "assigned" characteristics because we are too ignorant to see past ourselfes..... still no understand?

Those characteristics are how we recognize and define the river in relation to the terrain it passes through. Likewise, the terrain also has it's own nature, also based on a set of characteristics unique to it that are also used by ourselves to define it against other physical phenomena. Limitations, juxtaposed against the 'white noise' of chaos are how we recognize and define our experience of existence. They create the definitions of being that we use every moment of our lives to understand the environment in which we live, and they are the essence of our 'logic'.

Everything that exists is energy expressing itself. Yet energy cannot express itself in any and every way. If it could, the nature and character of existence would be total chaos. The expression of energy is limited to only certain ways. And because the expression of energy is limited, the way energy expresses itself becomes ordered. We can recognize that order. We can see the limitation of the expression of energy against the backdrop of chaos, and therefor recognize the different characteristics of the way energy expresses itself: rivers, mountains, life, and time.

It is the act of recognizing these limitations, and the orders they produce, that is the foundation of human logic and reason.
I have posed nothing of the sort, and nothing in my logic would lead us to this conclusion.

ok. i think you missed the point. let me make it easier for you to understand.

basically your point was:

"the universe is governed by natural laws. laws require a lawgiver, and so there must be a divine governor."

"the universe is not governed by anything, nor is it obeying anything. there is a difference between prescriptive laws and descriptive laws. natural laws are merely human definitions of the way things normally behave, not prescriptive mandates, as with societal laws.

when i let go of a pencil, it does not think, "oh, the force is released and i am free to move. i better move toward the center of the earth or i am in deep trouble with my designer."

a photon does not restrain itself by saying, "go easy on the gaspedal. i dont want to get a ticket for traveling faster than the speed of light."

the laws of nature, unlike the laws of traffic, describe what does happen, not what we would like to happen. using these laws allows us to make predictions so that when matter "behaves" according to natural regularity, it seems as if it is conforming to what our minds are expecting to happen.

"YOU ARE A VERY OBEDIENT RAINDROP. YOU ARE ACCELERATING JUST LIKE YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO ACCORDING TO THE LAWS OF GRAVITY, AND YOU ARE ALSO OBEYING THE LAWS OF FRICTION BY LETTING AIR RESISTANCE SLOW YOU TO A CONSTANT VELOCITY. GOOD RAINDROP!"

besides, if this argument were valid, the mind of a god, not being a random jumble of synapses, would equally be "governed" by some laws of order itself, thus requiring a higher lawgiver." -Dan Barker.

god did not create the world and then said, "oh, wow, i better create the world now". if you read genesis, you will see that god IS FOLLOWING an order of LOGIC(law) of thinking, just like us humans.

first, he thought of, or planned to create earth, then he acted upon his thoughts, and finally he analyzed his creation, concluding "it was good".

so then going by your logic, just like nature, god follows laws as well.

"if functional complexity requires a designer, then the mind of the designer, being even more functionally complex than its creation, also requires a designer" if it doesn't, then the argument is dishonest" -Dawkins

 

[islamcity]

I do find these things confusing. As an Australian i hear a lot of Christian preaching. They always say it was God's will to do this and that. When we see the bushfire victims ( i dont know if youve seen the carnage?) and preachers saying it was God's test to you. Why though? Why would God make us suffer? To me it seems strange how people attempt to justify what they percieve as God's plan for us. This is hurting my head lol

With the case of my associate, all i have to base my point on is what i have seen. He was a great person. I don't know what he would have done, i don't know if he was going to be nice all his life. No one does. We can only live in the now.

I am also an Australian and aware of vicitorian bushfire vitims, however with all dew respect please bring me examples from my religon, i am no expert in christianity.