A christian and lesbian wife?

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Mestemia; I think youll find I have both my legs to stand on..lol...Actually - logically - the OP defined herself as a CATHOLIC and LESBIAN yes who was seeking a WIFE....So logically - lets try to reconcile that if possible by looking see what the RELIGION ACTUALLY SAYS..

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christ...he-role-of-a-wife-bible-definition-of-a-wife/

As we see - according TO HER OWN RELIGION - a WIFE REQUIRES a HUSBAND - that is the ONLY permitted form of marriage TO THEM - anyhting other than that is merely a social contract and NOT a true marriage in THEIR eyes...All goes back of course to Adam and Eve - FIRST marriage, ordained DIRECTLY by their own god - only THAT form is sanctioned BY him, and hes supposed to be their big boss...That is the first time we see "wife " use din RELIGIOUS context as it HERE - and so by their own GODS definition,it is MALE and FEMALE ALWAYS...

NOT my baggage mate - but the catholics own doing

 

[McBell]

Hi Folks..

Mestemia; I think youll find I have both my legs to stand on..lol...Actually - logically - the OP defined herself as a CATHOLIC and LESBIAN yes who was seeking a WIFE....So logically - lets try to reconcile that if possible by looking see what the RELIGION ACTUALLY SAYS..

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christ...he-role-of-a-wife-bible-definition-of-a-wife/

As we see - according TO HER OWN RELIGION - a WIFE REQUIRES a HUSBAND - that is the ONLY permitted form of marriage TO THEM - anyhting other than that is merely a social contract and NOT a true marriage in THEIR eyes...All goes back of course to Adam and Eve - FIRST marriage, ordained DIRECTLY by their own god - only THAT form is sanctioned BY him, and hes supposed to be their big boss...That is the first time we see "wife " use din RELIGIOUS context as it HERE - and so by their own GODS definition,it is MALE and FEMALE ALWAYS...

NOT my baggage mate - but the catholics own doing

You keep using that word in manners that strongly indicate you do not know what it means.
But I see you are not about to let that fact interfere with your sermons.

 

[columbus]

NOT my baggage mate - but the catholics own doing

Yes it is your baggage, mate.
Catholics are a good deal more morally nuanced than you seem to realize.

Tom

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Mestemia; I obviously DO know what a wife is - I have one..lol...and yes - I understand what YOU mean exaclty - but what you fail to see is that which the OP proposed HERSELF - as in a LESBIAN CATHOLIC that seeks MARRIAGE (to another lesbian obviously, hence a WIFE, female partner)...Yer - I get ALL that...lol....

But - do you see the RELIGIOUS definiton of that female partner IS INDEED DEFINED BY A MALE and ONLY MALE for that is the only version of union of the flesh that they sanctify...duh - obvious really...But look, heres some proof if needed - from the link above..

The first Biblical reference to a wife is found Genesis 2:21-25 when God made a woman from Adam’s rib. Here the concept of a one flesh relationship in marriage is established.

The Hebrew word for wife is “ish-shaw,” which is the feminine form of “ish,” which means husband. Conceptually, as the woman was an extension from the man, the word for wife is also an extension of the word for man. Likewise, the English word woman denotes a man with a womb.

See now..?>.According to the RELIGION - as set out DIRECTLY by their GOD in this FIRST marriage - the union is to be MALE and FEMALE..Complimentary opposites that COMBINE and DEFINE each other..That is the ORIGINAL Hebrew defiinition Husband literally DEFINES Wife..When they structured their first religious marriage concepts, it was taken directly from THAT meaning - the woman being an EXTENSION of the MAN - and as we know the Catholics are a continuation of that first Judaic religion yes - same God..?..yes..So unavoidably - a Catholic version of marrigae must likewise be also seen as a woman being an extension of a MAN - after all that is what the ORIGINAL word ACTUALLY means as defined at the core of the religion itself..NOT my baggage a said - I didnt invent the word or give it its definiton OR dictate how people can believe thiink or act - the RELIGION did it all Im just explaining it in plain terms...

This is all of course merely a reflection of universal laws of life and Creation reflected in pretty much all spiritual wisdom right back to when we first came out the cave - you know - Yin and YANG combine to form Creation - Male and Female - ALWAYS that..

 

[oldbadger]

I am a lesbian and am a practicing catholic: I want a wife with whom to make a journey of faith, love and spirituality.

OK. Not only is the Pope a much more open minded being, but I don't think that any Old Testament laws forbade women from loving each other.

Many lesbians and bisexuals are not Christian.

True. Although there are over 3000 Christian denominations, many of these have pushed Lesbians and Bisexuals out and away.

Where I can find her?
What contexts and associations?

There is no trickery ion this answer, but the harder you search, the less successful you may be. Whenever I was most in need of partnership the less chance I seemed to have. And then, when I just gave up, stopped looking, and got on with life, I would trip over my partner!
So my guess is....... don't search... just try to become contented with yourself, and your whole being, signals, everything will change, and then you may find that the right person is attracted to you.

I hope that none of the above has offended you, it wasn't meant to.

 

[Nicoletta90]

Where do you live?
http://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/6-in-10-american-catholics-support-gay-marriage

 

[oldbadger]

Where do you live?
http://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/6-in-10-american-catholics-support-gay-marriage

Who..... me?
Kent, England.
Gay marriage and civil partnerships are protected by legislation, here, and LGBTQIA persons are being accepted more, and discriminated against less.... than ever before. Any sexual discrimination is illegal here. There is still some prejudice but it's becoming much more unnacceptable now.

But I visit certain American 'Christian' web sites and the prejudice, racism, LGBT hatred, female subjugation and extreme right-wing attitudes are so extreme as to be utterly amazing to me. So it has been my perception that LGBT folks get a harder time in the US than here.

 

[Jainarayan]

such arrangements are merely a "societal contract" anyway and nothing more..

That's all a marriage is any way. No marriage is valid without a state license. God is secondary, and actually not at all necessary for marriage.

 

[Jainarayan]

Yin and YANG combine to form Creation - Male and Female - ALWAYS that..

Yin and Yang have absolutely nothing to do with male-female. That is not what Yin and Yang mean at all.

 

[Etritonakin]

Yes, but at that time, homosexuality was extremely frowned upon by almost every civilization. Any kind of scripture written at that time would probably be against homosexuality. Marriage is a social concept, and thus, it is defined by ever changing social laws. Back then, the social laws happened to forbid homosexual behavior, and it was mentioned in the bible. Nowadays, the general consensus of society is different.

However, one who believes in Christ would likely not view the scriptures as merely indicative of the general consensus of society at the time.
Scripture often speaks against going along with general consensus.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I think she's asking for advice, which is quite valid on this forum. Just the wrong subforum for it. It really needs to be moved before it's further derailed with religious homophobia. We have dozens of threads about Christianity and homosexuality. It's beyond tired at this point.

Yeah, for real.

 

[fantome profane]

Hi Folks..

Surely - if one is Female - and marries - then they are a WIFE - and to be Wife at all they will be defined by their HUSBAND - for only a HUSBAND can make them to be an actual wife - logically - and if the union is woman to woman, or male to male for that matter - then neither are husband or wife at all - for that is not marriage at all, or as the religion states it not a Holy Matrimony - and each participant in such an arrangement is only a partner and cannot claim to be wife or husband - such arrangements are merely a "societal contract" anyway and nothing more..

As far as society is concerned all marriages are "societal contracts". When it comes to any "holy" or "sacred" elements that is between you and your God. I am sure many same-sex married couples consider their relationship holy, and their belief in this matter is just as valid as yours.

Imagine how you would feel if some stranger opined that your marriage was not "holy". I imagine that you would find it rather rude, but you would likely not care very much. I am sure that is how people feel about your comment.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Jainarayan;

That's all a marriage is any way. No marriage is valid without a state license. God is secondary, and actually not at all necessary for marriage.

You miss the point here entirely Im afraid - to a CATHOLIC your statement does not apply at all..To THEM, the god is primary and marriage is indeed a purely spiritual affair..The op DEFINED herself AS a practicing catholic so this should be primary to her,hence the need to post in the first place - obviously - as she tries to reconcile mortal life with her religious indoctrination..

Yin and Yang have absolutely nothing to do with male-female. That is not what Yin and Yang mean at all.

Really..??... http://www.ancient.eu/Yin_and_Yang/

The principle of Yin and Yang is a fundamental concept in Chinese philosophy and culture in general dating from the third century BCE or even earlier. This principle is that all things exist as inseparable and contradictory opposites, for example female-male, dark-light and old-young.

Understand..??...EXACTLY as I presented it above, yes..?..A UNION OF COMPLIMENTARY OPPOSITES - ALWAYS THAT - and obviously in the case of physical sexual gender - that can ONLY mean Male plus Female..Again I remind you(s) - I didnt invent the words or their definitons But Id be VERY interested to hear your definiton here Jain..?...What IS Yin & Yang according to your - unique - understanding then..?..

Fantome;

As far as society is concerned all marriages are "societal contracts". When it comes to any "holy" or "sacred" elements that is between you and your God. I am sure many same-sex married couples consider their relationship holy, and their belief in this matter is just as valid as yours.

lol - same here - you are MISSING THE POINT - two points in this case - lol...

First - the OP is the one expressing HER OWN - HOLY and SACRED elements and the issue between HER and HER GOD when she states she is a PRACTICING catholic....For the record - I dont share belief in THAT god at all - nor that religion obviously - which is the second point you missed - this is NOT MY BELIEFS - as said - I didnt invent or define any of this or write the doctrine that controls her beliefs - its all RELIGIOUS BAGGAGE - and look - you people can try to take the spiritual element out of it if you wish - but the OP is the one that made it CORE to her position - yes..?...Obviously to HER - there is a confusion between self and religious TAUGHT belief...Im just explaining THAT in clear and truthful ways..

Imagine how you would feel if some stranger opined that your marriage was not "holy". I imagine that you would find it rather rude, but you would likely not care very much.

lol - myself I would have courage and Self confidence to go away and look at the comments HIONESTLY without hiding from any truth...but thats just me always...

She came here ASKING for input FROM STRANGERS...lol...wheres the problem then..?...lol...And look - WORK IT OUT - its very OBVIOUS - she ALREADY KNOWS her desired marriage is "not holy" to HER RELIGION - knows there IS a problem which is why she stated the concerns and said she is SPECIFICALLY seeking someone with the same views and where can she find such a one ..i e someone who is not a "real" or "devout" catholic at all, who thinks it ok to disregard that teaching as and when it suits....She KNOWS her lifestyle is not acceptable TO her religion, yet is planning to defy her gods decrees regardless and seeks similar to make it happen....

Again - not my doing - not my baggage - all down to RELIGIOUS CONFUSION - Im just explainig it all HONESTLY..

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes it is your baggage, mate.
Catholics are a good deal more morally nuanced than you seem to realize.

Tom

Individual Catholics, yes. In my experience, it's very common that when the Catechism stands in opposition to what's good, just, and moral, individual lay Catholics will often reject Church teaching and support the good.

Still, anyone who counts on all Catholics they meet to do this consistently is in for a hard slog.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Penguin;

Individual Catholics, yes. In my experience, it's very common that when the Catechism stands in opposition to what's good, just, and moral, individual lay Catholics will often reject Church teaching and support the good.

Ah now to my mind - this is her real issue..How to cling to an indcoctrinated belief system when it doesnt fit in with real world living experiences..THIS is the cause for the confusion...Simply stated - cannot be BOTH lesbian married AND catholic - so as the op clearly states - is now looking to disregard the religion AS IT SUITS - to disregard the "god" as it suits - and yet still CLAIMS that fellowship WITH those she is about to disregard...

Its pretty absurd actually when it comes down to it..You cannot follow the doctrine faithfully as required to actually MAKE you a Catholic - supposedly direct word of god..lol - and then personally pick and chose which commands you want to obey and which you wish to abandon or flout - lol - ridiculous proposition - yet they do it all the time, many many issues..

Its like if I said Iam now vegetarian because my "god said this is HIS way meat eating bad" - lol - except I PERSONALLY decide " not today though asits Sunday and I crave roast beef so I will IGNORE my core truth and do as I please - screw god for now"....lol...can we say - hypocrasy here..??..

And where is their gods SOVEREIGNTY and CORE TRUTH in such issues where they disregard him out of hand like that..?..Out the window when it suits and mans sovereignty put in its place..??.. is he boss of you all still ..?..Or are you suddenly boss of him..??..lol...again, the hypocrasy is evident...Catholic ONLY when it suits is not catholic at all - surely..??..

Same would apply to all them stupid mad made religions of course - follow them if you(s) must - they will always bring you(s) to such Self confusion though - always without fail..

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

IT indeed, tells US what "our business" is to be - and as you mention it, and get me thinking, the obvious question has ot be asked - didnt this god who tells US what is permitted actually tell us already, such a union is to be MALE and female acccording TO its Will..?...

Telling one dirt-man to have sex with his twin sister does not generalize to actual human beings. God also made people who are intersexed and neither male nor female ... in many cultures, such people would represent "true" humanity, our first forms. After all, if we are made in God's image, why do we even HAVE multiple genders if God is only one?

Yes, but at that time, homosexuality was extremely frowned upon by almost every civilization.

The Abrahamic ones, yes. It doesn't generalize to others all over the globe.
see here

As we see - according TO HER OWN RELIGION - a WIFE REQUIRES a HUSBAND - that is the ONLY permitted form of marriage TO THEM

Catholics, then, have short term memory loss.

All goes back of course to Adam and Eve - FIRST marriage, ordained DIRECTLY by their own god - only THAT form is sanctioned BY him

Where are they married? I only see a dirt-man telling his twin sister he's going to have sex with her. I mean, I realize not everyone's into foreplay, but ... daaaaayuuuummm.

According to the RELIGION - as set out DIRECTLY by their GOD in this FIRST marriage - the union is to be MALE and FEMALE.

And yet the almighty America's Best Christian can tell you why that's nonsense.

When they structured their first religious marriage concepts, it was taken directly from THAT meaning - the woman being an EXTENSION of the MAN

I see where this works in English, but can you prove it in Hebrew?

OK. Not only is the Pope a much more open minded being, but I don't think that any Old Testament laws forbade women from loving each other.

LOL, yes, God forbids man lying with another man as he would a woman (I didn't know men had vaginas. Will wonders never cease?), but there is NOTHING about two gals getting it on.

True. Although there are over 3000 Christian denominations, many of these have pushed Lesbians and Bisexuals out and away.

Christianity accepts we are all sinners. Except for gays. You can be a rapist, a murderer ... but simply GAY? That just is the straw that broke the pig's back! (I'm from the South, where sheep and pigs and cows and horses would be used more often than camel's, LOL.)

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Kelly;

Telling one dirt-man to have sex with his twin sister does not generalize to actual human beings.

lol - It does if you are a PRACTICING CATHOLIC though !! I actually see it like you it seems - cant believe why anyone fell for ANY of the religious tripe at all..But here - its the OPs position - and there is no seperating mortal life from THAT religion, especially sexual matters..

God also made people who are intersexed and neither male nor female ...

NOT according to THAT religion it didnt - it create man and then wopman it says first - or then again it does contradict itself in Genesis and later says actually both were created same time - but NOWHERE does it have that god creating any other form or sanctioning any other union - though again,confusion from the god - actually it did offer Adam some ANIMALS to choose from first of course - go figure - but when none are found suitable eventually it settled on a female human and said THAT was to be Adams natural mate - and yes - all that entire bible passage IS dealing with SEX and reproduction Folks - read it very carefully keep it in context,and soon becomes clear..

in many cultures, such people would represent "true" humanity, our first forms. After all, if we are made in God's image, why do we even HAVE multiple genders if God is only one?

You forget though - those "many cultures" - are NOT CATHOLIC or even the same understanding of the same god - but it is THIS catholic god and culture that is only pertinant one here..

Made in that image..?..As explained elsewhere - Creation is caused by a MIND - two COMPLIMENTARY forces contained within it - two complimentary PERSONAS within the mind - COMBINE to make reality come forth...A MIND causes everything - the ABSTRACT becomes the tangeable experential worlds of mortal man and it is all literally imagined BY a mind...WE - look BACKWARDS upon the process as we are result of it of course and it is WE who defined it thus Male and Female - we understood the basic concept - male and female combine to form life - and we know we are a reflection of the Divine above - so We gave them our labels of Male and Female - but actually, they are as discussed above and in depth elsewhere - COMPLIMENTARY PERSONALITY within the Divine mind that causes it all...ALWAYS these two complimentary opposites combine to drive the Creation - YIN and YANG - see the full description in the link above...

Where are they married? I only see a dirt-man telling his twin sister he's going to have sex with her. I mean, I realize not everyone's into foreplay, but ... daaaaayuuuummm.

This act is the FIRST UNION - the Judaic notion of mortal sanctified marriage reflects this first union - the catholic notion of marriage reflects the Judaic - please see the links above already posted earlier..

I see where this works in English, but can you prove it in Hebrew?

Yes - I anticipated such a need for proof - already did same post with the link it came from...Here it is again though if I must..

The first Biblical reference to a wife is found Genesis 2:21-25 when God made a woman from Adam’s rib. Here the concept of a one flesh relationship in marriage is established.

The Hebrew word for wife is “ish-shaw,” which is the feminine form of “ish,” which means husband. Conceptually, as the woman was an extension from the man, the word for wife is also an extension of the word for man. Likewise, the English word woman denotes a man with a womb.

WIFE - LITERALLY is DEFINED by the HUSBAND becomes an EXTENSION of him...There is no such concept for woman and woman union, nor male and male unions..

 

[Etritonakin]

Hi Folks..

Kelly;

lol - It does if you are a PRACTICING CATHOLIC though !! I actually see it like you it seems - cant believe why anyone fell for ANY of the religious tripe at all..But here - its the OPs position - and there is no seperating mortal life from THAT religion, especially sexual matters..



NOT according to THAT religion it didnt - it create man and then wopman it says first - or then again it does contradict itself in Genesis and later says actually both were created same time - but NOWHERE does it have that god creating any other form or sanctioning any other union - though again,confusion from the god - actually it did offer Adam some ANIMALS to choose from first of course - go figure - but when none are found suitable eventually it settled on a female human and said THAT was to be Adams natural mate - and yes - all that entire bible passage IS dealing with SEX and reproduction Folks - read it very carefully keep it in context,and soon becomes clear..



You forget though - those "many cultures" - are NOT CATHOLIC or even the same understanding of the same god - but it is THIS catholic god and culture that is only pertinant one here..

Made in that image..?..As explained elsewhere - Creation is caused by a MIND - two COMPLIMENTARY forces contained within it - two complimentary PERSONAS within the mind - COMBINE to make reality come forth...A MIND causes everything - the ABSTRACT becomes the tangeable experential worlds of mortal man and it is all literally imagined BY a mind...WE - look BACKWARDS upon the process as we are result of it of course and it is WE who defined it thus Male and Female - we understood the basic concept - male and female combine to form life - and we know we are a reflection of the Divine above - so We gave them our labels of Male and Female - but actually, they are as discussed above and in depth elsewhere - COMPLIMENTARY PERSONALITY within the Divine mind that causes it all...ALWAYS these two complimentary opposites combine to drive the Creation - YIN and YANG - see the full description in the link above...



This act is the FIRST UNION - the Judaic notion of mortal sanctified marriage reflects this first union - the catholic notion of marriage reflects the Judaic - please see the links above already posted earlier..



Yes - I anticipated such a need for proof - already did same post with the link it came from...Here it is again though if I must..



WIFE - LITERALLY is DEFINED by the HUSBAND becomes an EXTENSION of him...There is no such concept for woman and woman union, nor male and male unions..

Male and female created he them.

Being cut off from the tree of life included allowing the creation to be adversely affected.
The temporary absence of that which God could do will give people the experience base necessary to accept him when he does so again.

John 9:2And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Is a 35:5Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
6Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hi Folks..

Penguin;

Ah now to my mind - this is her real issue..How to cling to an indcoctrinated belief system when it doesnt fit in with real world living experiences..THIS is the cause for the confusion...Simply stated - cannot be BOTH lesbian married AND catholic - so as the op clearly states - is now looking to disregard the religion AS IT SUITS - to disregard the "god" as it suits - and yet still CLAIMS that fellowship WITH those she is about to disregard...

Its pretty absurd actually when it comes down to it..You cannot follow the doctrine faithfully as required to actually MAKE you a Catholic - supposedly direct word of god..lol - and then personally pick and chose which commands you want to obey and which you wish to abandon or flout - lol - ridiculous proposition - yet they do it all the time, many many issues..

Its like if I said Iam now vegetarian because my "god said this is HIS way meat eating bad" - lol - except I PERSONALLY decide " not today though asits Sunday and I crave roast beef so I will IGNORE my core truth and do as I please - screw god for now"....lol...can we say - hypocrasy here..??..

And where is their gods SOVEREIGNTY and CORE TRUTH in such issues where they disregard him out of hand like that..?..Out the window when it suits and mans sovereignty put in its place..??.. is he boss of you all still ..?..Or are you suddenly boss of him..??..lol...again, the hypocrasy is evident...Catholic ONLY when it suits is not catholic at all - surely..??..

Same would apply to all them stupid mad made religions of course - follow them if you(s) must - they will always bring you(s) to such Self confusion though - always without fail..

You have some very strange ideas about Catholic doctrine. In the eyes of the Church, only one thing matters in determining whether someone is Catholic: whether they were baptized into the Catholic faith. That's it.

Now... the Church doesn't endorse the behaviour of every Catholic; in fact, a Catholic can be considered a complete heretic. But even people who have been excommunicated are still considered Catholic. Actually, there's no such thing as someone who has been excommunicated from the Catholic Church who the Church considers not a Catholic. In the eyes of the Church, a baptized atheist in a same-sex marriage who hasn't set foot in a church since she learned to walk is just as Catholic as the Pope.

What you're arguing for - i.e. that a person's actions determine whether they're Catholic - is a form of Donatism and a heresy in the eyes of the Church.

 

[McBell]

Hi Folks..

Mestemia; I obviously DO know what a wife is - I have one..lol...and yes - I understand what YOU mean exaclty - but what you fail to see is that which the OP proposed HERSELF - as in a LESBIAN CATHOLIC that seeks MARRIAGE (to another lesbian obviously, hence a WIFE, female partner)...Yer - I get ALL that...lol....

But - do you see the RELIGIOUS definiton of that female partner IS INDEED DEFINED BY A MALE and ONLY MALE for that is the only version of union of the flesh that they sanctify...duh - obvious really...But look, heres some proof if needed - from the link above..



See now..?>.According to the RELIGION - as set out DIRECTLY by their GOD in this FIRST marriage - the union is to be MALE and FEMALE..Complimentary opposites that COMBINE and DEFINE each other..That is the ORIGINAL Hebrew defiinition Husband literally DEFINES Wife..When they structured their first religious marriage concepts, it was taken directly from THAT meaning - the woman being an EXTENSION of the MAN - and as we know the Catholics are a continuation of that first Judaic religion yes - same God..?..yes..So unavoidably - a Catholic version of marrigae must likewise be also seen as a woman being an extension of a MAN - after all that is what the ORIGINAL word ACTUALLY means as defined at the core of the religion itself..NOT my baggage a said - I didnt invent the word or give it its definiton OR dictate how people can believe thiink or act - the RELIGION did it all Im just explaining it in plain terms...

This is all of course merely a reflection of universal laws of life and Creation reflected in pretty much all spiritual wisdom right back to when we first came out the cave - you know - Yin and YANG combine to form Creation - Male and Female - ALWAYS that..

I was completely unaware you became the Pope....
When was the ceremony and how were you able to keep it out of the media?
Does the other Pope know he has been demoted?

Interesting that you think you speak for all of Catholicism....