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A Christian becomes a nonbeliever

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
I believe there is a better reality to come, when we die and go to the next world, but we have to navigate our way through this world to get there.

I obviously don't believe in God the same way you do, but I do believe that we have to navigate our way through this world to get to the spirit world. I believe that it is essential to be mindful of how we live in this life because our personality can carry over into the afterlife. As I've previously stated, the kind of character that a person had in life can and will carry on with them into their afterlife. They will almost certainly be an abusive jack*** in the afterlife if they were an abusive jack*** in life. It is possible to cause a spirit like that to change by confronting them, but it hasn't happened very often for me.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Even with this world being so messed up as it is, all of us have moments we enjoy, wouldn’t you agree? I’m sure you have pleasant memories of times you enjoyed with your husband (or somebody else like a close friend)…or maybe lovely places you’ve visited.
No, I have no pleasant memories of times I enjoyed with my husband, only tormenting memories, which is why I try to live in the present and never look back.

My life has been a holy living hell for at least the last 20 years, and it was no picnic before that. The only joy I have now is derived from my cats, and I have no hope for the future.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I obviously don't believe in God the same way you do, but I do believe that we have to navigate our way through this world to get to the spirit world. I believe that it is essential to be mindful of how we live in this life because our personality can carry over into the afterlife. As I've previously stated, the kind of character that a person had in life can and will carry on with them into their afterlife. They will almost certainly be an abusive jack*** in the afterlife if they were an abusive jack*** in life. It is possible to cause a spirit like that to change by confronting them, but it hasn't happened very often for me.
I fully agree with what you said about our personality carrying over. That is a Baha'i teaching, but it is also what comes through when psychic mediums communicate with spirits on the other side. Regarding the afterlife, there is no conflict between Baha'i teachings and what comes through psychic mediums, they are in complete harmony. You can leave God out of the equation because nobody really knows anything about God.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
A man I met on eharmony told me that he was raised in a Christian church and he fervently believed in God, but as he aged and grew in life experience, he did not see the Hand of God at work in our world, although he still believed in God. Then when his wife got sick with cancer and he turned in earnest to God, praying for her suffering to be relieved for 3 ½ years while he was her caregiver, he never felt the grace of God, and then as a result he lost his belief in God. He said he felt like no deity capable of making a difference in a person’s life would let his wife suffer so much.

Here is how I responded to his message:

I was not raised as a Christian or in any religion or believing in God and I became a Baha’i during my first year of college. I can fully understand how you feel about God because I belong to a religious forum and many people feel that way. I have struggled to believe that God is loving, given all the suffering I have endured, long before my husband passed on of cancer. I have also struggled to believe that God is loving because of all the suffering in the world, but I never lost my belief in God. Through my religion and my own logical analysis, I have a belief about why God does not intervene to prevent suffering.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He said he was going to respond to my message but I have not heard back yet. What I will say if this conversation continues is that a person does not have to believe that God is loving in order to believe that God exists. I believe it is beyond human comprehension to understand ‘how’ God is loving because God’s love is not like human love since God is not a human. I think that some people ‘project’ what they believe a loving God would do but that is illogical, since they cannot ever know what a loving God would do. They can only have a personal opinion regarding what a loving God would do based upon what they consider loving, and if their opinion is based upon what a loving human would do under the same circumstances that is the fallacy of false equivalence, since God is not a human.

As a matter of religious belief, I believe that God is loving, but when thinking analytically I cannot understand how a loving God would create a world with the potential for so much suffering. The problem is not that God does not rescue people from suffering, since I think that is ludicrous, the problem is that God created such a world in the first place! Why would God rescue us from the suffering that he intended for us to experience all along? It makes no sense.

If you want to offer the religious apologetic that God created a world that is a storehouse of suffering for human benefit, save it for someone who cares, as that is not what this thread is about.
Why do you believe in a God in the first place? All of the cosmological arguments have been shown to fail, theism doesn't have any evidence and deism doesn't make much sense either?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
In my opinion, my experience of emotionally healing and making my life better on my own without believing in God, having faith in God, or depending on God validates Penn Jillette's point that a person doesn't need God in their life to be a moral person. I honestly think that he hit the nail on the head when he said, "The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want?" And my answer is: I rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them, they would go on killing and raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine." I truly believe that he is spot on.
This seems consistent with how many Christians use the attitude of humans being "worthless rags" yet God still does the bare minimum for us. Does God save children from cancer? No. But he lets believers go through their actions as "worthless rags" that somehow are blessed if they win the lottery of life.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
God was there for the man's wife, and helped greatly to relieve her suffering, though the husband's love and care.

God isn't a 'magical Santa'. God is the spirit of love, forgiveness, kindness, generosity, honesty, and wisdom within us all; and as it is expressed in the world around us, through us and to us.

We don't have to believe in the "magical Santa god" to be a Christian. Or to be a theist of any sort. We just need to choose to be the embodiment of that divine spirit within. That's it. That's Christ, and that's Christianity. It's just a way of being in the world.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
God was there for the man's wife, and helped greatly to relieve her suffering, though the husband's love and care.

God isn't a 'magical Santa'. God is the spirit of love, forgiveness, kindness, generosity, honesty, and wisdom within us all; and as it is expressed in the world around us, through us and to us.

We don't have to believe in the "magical Santa god" to be a Christian. Or to be a theist of any sort. We just need to choose to be the embodiment of that divine spirit within. That's it. That's Christ, and that's Christianity. It's just a way of being in the world.
Gee whiz a truly helpful God would have created a world with less suffering, but its not like believers are dealing with facts.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Gee whiz a truly helpful God would have created a world with less suffering, but its not like believers are dealing with facts.
Well, this is what it is all about.
How much patience have we got?
What will happen to our faith, if we suffer due to our love for G-d?

One thing is for sure .. we will eventually die, and then .. "This is your life".
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
I believe it is beyond human comprehension to understand ‘how’ God is loving because God’s love is not like human love since God is not a human. I think that some people ‘project’ what they believe a loving God would do but that is illogical, since they cannot ever know what a loving God would do. They can only have a personal opinion regarding what a loving God would do based upon what they consider loving, and if their opinion is based upon what a loving human would do under the same circumstances that is the fallacy of false equivalence, since God is not a human.

If we can't understand and feel how God loves us then it is irrelevant for us.
 

Misunderstood

Active Member
A man I met on eharmony told me that he was raised in a Christian church and he fervently believed in God, but as he aged and grew in life experience, he did not see the Hand of God at work in our world, although he still believed in God. Then when his wife got sick with cancer and he turned in earnest to God, praying for her suffering to be relieved for 3 ½ years while he was her caregiver, he never felt the grace of God, and then as a result he lost his belief in God. He said he felt like no deity capable of making a difference in a person’s life would let his wife suffer so much.

Here is how I responded to his message:

I was not raised as a Christian or in any religion or believing in God and I became a Baha’i during my first year of college. I can fully understand how you feel about God because I belong to a religious forum and many people feel that way. I have struggled to believe that God is loving, given all the suffering I have endured, long before my husband passed on of cancer. I have also struggled to believe that God is loving because of all the suffering in the world, but I never lost my belief in God. Through my religion and my own logical analysis, I have a belief about why God does not intervene to prevent suffering.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He said he was going to respond to my message but I have not heard back yet. What I will say if this conversation continues is that a person does not have to believe that God is loving in order to believe that God exists. I believe it is beyond human comprehension to understand ‘how’ God is loving because God’s love is not like human love since God is not a human. I think that some people ‘project’ what they believe a loving God would do but that is illogical, since they cannot ever know what a loving God would do. They can only have a personal opinion regarding what a loving God would do based upon what they consider loving, and if their opinion is based upon what a loving human would do under the same circumstances that is the fallacy of false equivalence, since God is not a human.

As a matter of religious belief, I believe that God is loving, but when thinking analytically I cannot understand how a loving God would create a world with the potential for so much suffering. The problem is not that God does not rescue people from suffering, since I think that is ludicrous, the problem is that God created such a world in the first place! Why would God rescue us from the suffering that he intended for us to experience all along? It makes no sense.

If you want to offer the religious apologetic that God created a world that is a storehouse of suffering for human benefit, save it for someone who cares, as that is not what this thread is about.
Hello Trailblazer, I am so sorry for both, his and your loss and all the sorrow you both have gone through.

I feel Jainarayan in post #15 gave a very good answer, most likely better than any I could have given. I think most Christians feel they are God and expect him to rule the world the way they would, then blame Him when things do not go the way they want. We know so little about this world both in science and spiritually to really know what is going on or what should happen to be questioning what is going on.

I can't say I have never blamed God for anything, I know I have. But I have never understood why myself or anyone else as a Christian would do that. As Christians we know God is not ruler of this world; Satan is.

I have post a few links below, one is from a Jehovah Witness site, I am not JW, but found it so I added it also.

https://www.bibleversestudy.com/johnhgospel/john12-ruler-of-this-world.htm
5 Bible verses about Satan As The Prince Of This World
https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/wp20140501/who-rules-the-world

We gave chose Satan as our ruler, so we should blame Satan for our troubles, or ask him for help if you think he is doing a good job.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
This seems consistent with how many Christians use the attitude of humans being "worthless rags" yet God still does the bare minimum for us. Does God save children from cancer? No. But he lets believers go through their actions as "worthless rags" that somehow are blessed if they win the lottery of life.

As a Christian, I was taught that we, as human beings, are morally depraved and the scum of the earth in comparison to God, and that we deserve his wrath and are deserving of hell because we sin against him. It's a belief that was drilled into my mind throughout my life. This belief stems from Isaiah 64:6, which states, "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like leaves, and like the wind, our sins sweep us away." I grew up in an abusive home, and as an abused child, I was raised to believe that I was a useless waste of space, and I was treated as such at home and at school. Despite my circumstances at home and school, I still genuinely believed in God and was taught that God is loving and merciful, that I, like the rest of humanity, was unworthy of his love and mercy, and that I (like the rest of humanity) deserved his wrath and would go to hell because we commit sin against him. So, in addition to having an emotional hangup about being a useless waste of space at home and school, I also felt like the scum of the earth in comparison to the God I believed in. I couldn't win for losing, and I grew up deeply depressed and feeling worthless, and these sad feelings haunted me throughout my life until I finally renounced my Christian faith and freed myself from its emotional crutch two years ago. I can honestly say that renouncing my faith and belief in God was the best decision that I've ever made for my mental health and emotional well-being.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Gee whiz a truly helpful God would have created a world with less suffering, but its not like believers are dealing with facts.
It is not a fact that a truly helpful God would have created a world with less suffering. It is only an ego projection, what you believe God would do if God was helpful.

You have no way of knowing what a 'helpful God' would do. All you have is a personal opinion.
In my personal opinion a helpful God sends messengers so people can ameliorate suffering using their teachings.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
5 Bible verses about Satan As The Prince Of This World
Ironically, the Baha'is believe that verse about the "prince of this world" is their prophet.

Thou didst ask as to chapter 14, verse 30 of the Gospel of John, where the Lord Christ saith, ’Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the Prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.’ The Prince of this world is the Blessed Beauty [Baha’u’llah]; and ’hath nothing in Me’ signifieth: after Me all will draw grace from Me, but He is independent of Me, and will draw no grace from Me. That is, He is rich beyond any grace of Mine. – Abdu’l-Baha, Selections From the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 171.
I don't think they'll agree with those verses that says Satan is the Prince of this world.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Hello Trailblazer, I am so sorry for both, his and your loss and all the sorrow you both have gone through.

I feel Jainarayan in post #15 gave a very good answer, most likely better than any I could have given. I think most Christians feel they are God and expect him to rule the world the way they would, then blame Him when things do not go the way they want. We know so little about this world both in science and spiritually to really know what is going on or what should happen to be questioning what is going on.

I can't say I have never blamed God for anything, I know I have. But I have never understood why myself or anyone else as a Christian would do that. As Christians we know God is not ruler of this world; Satan is.

I have post a few links below, one is from a Jehovah Witness site, I am not JW, but found it so I added it also.

https://www.bibleversestudy.com/johnhgospel/john12-ruler-of-this-world.htm
5 Bible verses about Satan As The Prince Of This World
https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/wp20140501/who-rules-the-world

We gave chose Satan as our ruler, so we should blame Satan for our troubles, or ask him for help if you think he is doing a good job.
As a Baha'i, I do not believe that there is an actual entity called Satan. I believe that Satan signifies the natural inclinations of man's lower nature.

“…… according to the will of Satan, by which we mean the natural inclinations of the lower nature. This lower nature in man is symbolized as Satan—the evil ego within us, not an evil personality outside.” Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 286-287

“The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions, one is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm…. God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.“ Abdu’l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 294–295.

As a Baha'i, I believe that God is the Ruler of this world.

“Sanctified be the Lord of all mankind, at the mention of Whose name all the atoms of the earth have been made to vibrate, and the Tongue of Grandeur hath been moved to disclose that which had been wrapt in His knowledge and lay concealed within the treasury of His might. He, verily, through the potency of His name, the Mighty, the All-Powerful, the Most High, is the ruler of all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 16-17

As a Baha'i, I believe that the "prince of this world" is Baha'u'llah, not Satan.

"Thou didst ask as to chapter 14, verse 30 of the Gospel of John, where the Lord Christ saith, ’Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the Prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.’ The Prince of this world is the Blessed Beauty [Baha’u’llah]; and ’hath nothing in Me’ signifieth: after Me all will draw grace from Me, but He is independent of Me, and will draw no grace from Me. That is, He is rich beyond any grace of Mine." Abdu’l-Baha, Selections From the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 171.
 

Exaltist Ethan

Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
All suffering is created because something did not view the other thing worthy of value, or divinity. The cancer grows inside a human body because the cancer wants itself to be alive and does not care about the human. Many entropic values are at play here, whether it is caused by human or nature. Recently my cousin, who was only in her 40s, got a massive stroke and died. She was overweight, but so is her mom, who is 20 years older, and her mother, my aunt, is still alive. Ultimately strokes are just entropic effects of the body. On the other hand, if there was no entropy, there wouldn't have been a big bang to begin with, and everything in the Universe would still be combined together in a much larger multiverse. The nature of entropy can be viewed as both good and harmful, but when human extropy accelerates even further the harmful effects of entropy will be reduced as much possible, so cancer will be cured, strokes will be prevented and eventually aging itself will be a thing of the past.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Well, this is what it is all about.
How much patience have we got?
We, as in theists? It seems theists are very impatient as they routinely keep asking God for deliverance from whatever troubles that befall them. Atheists are quite more self-reliant and vastly more patient with solutions. Let's clarify, realistic solutions.
What will happen to our faith, if we suffer due to our love for G-d?
Faith should be abanded since it is little more than wishful thinking. It solves nothing, and can make a person's problems worse because instead of thinking realistic solutions the faithful is praying for a miracle.

If the Abrahamic God exists in the ways Abrahamic believers say then it is probably shaking its head with all the crybabies it created. You'd think by now Abrahamics would learn from th Adam and Eve story and grow up and be responsible adults.
One thing is for sure .. we will eventually die, and then .. "This is your life".
Yup, I'm not wasting my life thinking I have to please an improbable God (that apparently isn't that much into humans anyway).
 
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F1fan

Veteran Member
As a Christian, I was taught that we, as human beings, are morally depraved and the scum of the earth in comparison to God, and that we deserve his wrath and are deserving of hell because we sin against him. It's a belief that was drilled into my mind throughout my life. This belief stems from Isaiah 64:6, which states, "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like leaves, and like the wind, our sins sweep us away." I grew up in an abusive home, and as an abused child, I was raised to believe that I was a useless waste of space, and I was treated as such at home and at school. Despite my circumstances at home and school, I still genuinely believed in God and was taught that God is loving and merciful, that I, like the rest of humanity, was unworthy of his love and mercy, and that I (like the rest of humanity) deserved his wrath and would go to hell because we commit sin against him. So, in addition to having an emotional hangup about being a useless waste of space at home and school, I also felt like the scum of the earth in comparison to the God I believed in. I couldn't win for losing, and I grew up deeply depressed and feeling worthless, and these sad feelings haunted me throughout my life until I finally renounced my Christian faith and freed myself from its emotional crutch two years ago. I can honestly say that renouncing my faith and belief in God was the best decision that I've ever made for my mental health and emotional well-being.
I don't get the attraction to this theology, as it's almost like Stockholm Syndrome happening on a mass scale. The "I'm depraved scum" theology is rather odd for the most special creature on earth. In one sense why would a God create "depraved scum" at all? How does that celebrate anything? No engineer would design something bad and know they could do better, but settle on the bad idea. But then, God is going to create a son and have him killed as a sacrifice to help this "scum"? How does that make any sense?

Is this the best God can do? I'm not impressed.
 
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