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A confession

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I actually have come to deeply loathe communism. But I'm stuck wondering what to do. When it comes down to it I have got so fed up of the "politics of fear" that is now used to control and manipulate us, I'd want to believe anything if its something positive. Just as long as it gets rid of the depression and gives me a sense of my own value. Its been hard to admitt because its so intimately connected with my self-worth that admitting I was wrong or could be wrong would be painful or humiliating. But here I am. I was wrong about communism in alot of ways and I was wrong on alot of other things. I'm not giving up on myself though.

I have never wholly heartedly believed either in the necessity of political violence or of the "dictatorship of the proletariat". Nor have I wanted to force others to believe as I believe (except perhaps out of desperation, vanity or loneliness). The moment you think deeply about violence and what it does to people it just makes your ideals absurd. Good intentions become ridiculous. What I wanted was to believe that I can have a better future, that we can make it better by our own efforts and that I have some degree of control over my life. I just wanted to believe something empowering that make me feel like I had some value and could make a difference and that my time on this earth would amount to something.

But the sort of environment that liberal or "free" socities have become makes that almost impossible. They value the ideavof the individual and yet loathe the real thing as too imperfect to be good or true. When your told by the media and politicans to be afriad of everything ranging from climate change, terrorism, crime, immigration, the stock market, unemployment, the creeping power of government, the erosion of online privacy, and all the other stuff- you reach a point where you know you're just being manipulated but you don't know by who or how. Its doesn't even matter whether its fake news or not as the effect is the same. You are not being informed by honest truth seekers or intelligent advocates who are capable of compromise and seeing another person's point of view. You are not being educated to empower you but are being starved of information to make you easier to control.

As far as I can tell the champions of individualism have only made us feel small, vunerable and then round us up like cattle to agree with one view or another depending on how well it serves their interests. They talk about liberty but then make you feel powerless to use it. And then they are shocked and appalled that there is a wave of extremism and populism coming from the right and the left. The endless torrent of moral outrage to serve the narcassistic vindication of small minds, trying to make the world small by narrowing their vision to fit with their partisan dogmas only devalues liberty as a humane ideal into the currency of manipulation. The worst thing about it is how they are using the language of freedom to convince us to give it up or make the world so unsafe that freedom could dissappear entirely.

I have to admit that I'd dump communism at the first oppurtunity if I saw something better come along as its capacity for atrocity is repulsive. That feels disloyal in a way but you should be loyal to people not principles as people matter more. there just isn't a space in free societies where you can hear yourself think. You don't hear the dreamers anymore- just partisan salesmen pushing fear as a marketing tool. The hopelessness and despair of "free" societies is toxic and I don't know what to do about it or how I fit in to this big hideously messy puzzle.

Having been on the fringes of extremism for many years, I can only watch others become as extreme with horror as people's vulerabilities are exploited to serve dictatorial ends. I can't and I don't want to reconcile with the nihilism of it. Until I can find something better or else solve its problems I'm still a communist but I really don't know where it leaves me. I had to make alot of mistakes to get to where I am but I can't tell if its a real mistake or just innocent human error. Freedom is a great idea and don't let anyone sell you short that you don't deserve it or can't handle it or that someone should have power over you. I hope people will come to their senses soon.

Anyway, I've reached a point where I know communism isn't a joke anymore because we've truly screwed up that much. These are extraordinary times we live in. Yet all the information I've got says it doesn't necessarily make people happy or heroic and courageous fighter for justice. They are still human and have all their imperfections to reconcile with. Maybe thats forgivable in the long run but there are some really dangerous illusions riding on it. I may come up with something but I'm less and less sure I'm going to like the outcome as time goes on. In one sense, I'm lost, but in other I've found what I was looking for. The hardest words in the english language are "I don't know". Its also hard finding the ways to let go of the poisonous and authoritarian need for certainty, if only to be seen to be right. So rather than pretend otherwise I just wanted to say: don't listen to the fear, don't be persauded to be something you're not in the name of absolutes, stay free and don't give up. There are worse things in the world than admitting you can get it wrong and can make mistakes. There's always tommorrow to try again.

Best wishes everyone. :)
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
If a man is not a socialist by the time he is 20, he has no heart. If he is not a conservative by the time he is 40, he has no brain. – Winston Churchill (supposedly)

:D

Good luck on your journey Laika. Make it on Skype sometime bro.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Your time has not been wasted! Your experience as a communist can be used to enrich those around you. It did me, comrade! :)
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hello Laika. My opinion is, "Why do we have to be all out anything. Why not take the best each system has to offer and give it credit . Some parts of Capitalism is good, other parts not so good. Some parts of Socialist thought is good (especially medicine), others not so much. No system in and of itself is perfect by a long shot, but each system does have at least some parts that are useful to society. I wouldn't let what your talking about bother you. It just shows that you think for yourself. You have always been fair here, even with opposing views. I'm actually glad to hear this from you. :)
 

allfoak

Alchemist
I actually have come to deeply loathe communism. But I'm stuck wondering what to do.
I'm not giving up on myself though.

The Kybalion
Chapter 6
The Divine Paradox:

"We do not live in a world of dreams, but in an Universe which while relative, is real so far as our lives and actions are concerned.
Our business in the Universe is not to deny its existence, but to LIVE, using the Laws to rise from lower to higher--living on, doing the best that we can under the circumstances arising each day, and living, so far as is possible, to our biggest ideas and ideals.
The true Meaning of Life is not known to men on this plane if, indeed, to any--but the highest authorities, and our own intuitions, teach us that we will make no mistake in living up to the best that is in us, so far as is possible, and realizing the Universal tendency in the same direction in spite of apparent evidence to the contrary.
We are all on The Path--and the road leads upward ever, with frequent resting places".
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I'm happy to hear this :)

Well, at least you're shameless about it. :D

(And thanks for what you said later btw. I'm sure I can put it to good use somehow. :) )

Hello Laika. My opinion is, "Why do we have to be all out anything. Why not take the best each system has to offer and give it credit . Some parts of Capitalism is good, other parts not so good. Some parts of Socialist thought is good (especially medicine), others not so much. No system in and of itself is perfect by a long shot, but each system does have at least some parts that are useful to society. I wouldn't let what your talking about bother you. It just shows that you think for yourself. You have always been fair here, even with opposing views. I'm actually glad to hear this from you. :)

If you keep hitting your head against a brick wall, its time to stop and say.."owwwww!"

I'm going to have to learn to "think" again as the fear has been making the decisions for quite a while. my head is not very clear but if I give it time it will get better. New adventures and new horizons await!

Thanks btw. :)

If a man is not a socialist by the time he is 20, he has no heart. If he is not a conservative by the time he is 40, he has no brain. – Winston Churchill (supposedly)

:D

Good luck on your journey Laika. Make it on Skype sometime bro.

Well, I managed 27. That seems pretty good.

Feel free to PM if you want to catch up. :) I am still living without my own laptop (I think it must be about 8 months now).

Sorry to know your having so much.

I hope you find your peace and ultimate answers soon.

Thanks SG. Much appreciated. :)
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The Kybalion
Chapter 6
The Divine Paradox:

"We do not live in a world of dreams, but in an Universe which while relative, is real so far as our lives and actions are concerned.
Our business in the Universe is not to deny its existence, but to LIVE, using the Laws to rise from lower to higher--living on, doing the best that we can under the circumstances arising each day, and living, so far as is possible, to our biggest ideas and ideals.
The true Meaning of Life is not known to men on this plane if, indeed, to any--but the highest authorities, and our own intuitions, teach us that we will make no mistake in living up to the best that is in us, so far as is possible, and realizing the Universal tendency in the same direction in spite of apparent evidence to the contrary.
We are all on The Path--and the road leads upward ever, with frequent resting places".

Well said. A very nice quote. Thanks. :)
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I have to admit that I'd dump communism at the first oppurtunity if I saw something better
Really, such is an appropriate response for any ideology. Of course it's not always really that simply, especially when it comes to religious dogma, and we may not always know necessarily what is better, but if we find something truly better then why not adopt it?
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I actually have come to deeply loathe communism. But I'm stuck wondering what to do. When it comes down to it I have got so fed up of the "politics of fear" that is now used to control and manipulate us, I'd want to believe anything if its something positive. Just as long as it gets rid of the depression and gives me a sense of my own value. Its been hard to admitt because its so intimately connected with my self-worth that admitting I was wrong or could be wrong would be painful or humiliating. But here I am. I was wrong about communism in alot of ways and I was wrong on alot of other things. I'm not giving up on myself though.

I have never wholly heartedly believed either in the necessity of political violence or of the "dictatorship of the proletariat". Nor have I wanted to force others to believe as I believe (except perhaps out of desperation, vanity or loneliness). The moment you think deeply about violence and what it does to people it just makes your ideals absurd. Good intentions become ridiculous. What I wanted was to believe that I can have a better future, that we can make it better by our own efforts and that I have some degree of control over my life. I just wanted to believe something empowering that make me feel like I had some value and could make a difference and that my time on this earth would amount to something.

But the sort of environment that liberal or "free" socities have become makes that almost impossible. They value the ideavof the individual and yet loathe the real thing as too imperfect to be good or true. When your told by the media and politicans to be afriad of everything ranging from climate change, terrorism, crime, immigration, the stock market, unemployment, the creeping power of government, the erosion of online privacy, and all the other stuff- you reach a point where you know you're just being manipulated but you don't know by who or how. Its doesn't even matter whether its fake news or not as the effect is the same. You are not being informed by honest truth seekers or intelligent advocates who are capable of compromise and seeing another person's point of view. You are not being educated to empower you but are being starved of information to make you easier to control.

As far as I can tell the champions of individualism have only made us feel small, vunerable and then round us up like cattle to agree with one view or another depending on how well it serves their interests. They talk about liberty but then make you feel powerless to use it. And then they are shocked and appalled that there is a wave of extremism and populism coming from the right and the left. The endless torrent of moral outrage to serve the narcassistic vindication of small minds, trying to make the world small by narrowing their vision to fit with their partisan dogmas only devalues liberty as a humane ideal into the currency of manipulation. The worst thing about it is how they are using the language of freedom to convince us to give it up or make the world so unsafe that freedom could dissappear entirely.

I have to admit that I'd dump communism at the first oppurtunity if I saw something better come along as its capacity for atrocity is repulsive. That feels disloyal in a way but you should be loyal to people not principles as people matter more. there just isn't a space in free societies where you can hear yourself think. You don't hear the dreamers anymore- just partisan salesmen pushing fear as a marketing tool. The hopelessness and despair of "free" societies is toxic and I don't know what to do about it or how I fit in to this big hideously messy puzzle.

Having been on the fringes of extremism for many years, I can only watch others become as extreme with horror as people's vulerabilities are exploited to serve dictatorial ends. I can't and I don't want to reconcile with the nihilism of it. Until I can find something better or else solve its problems I'm still a communist but I really don't know where it leaves me. I had to make alot of mistakes to get to where I am but I can't tell if its a real mistake or just innocent human error. Freedom is a great idea and don't let anyone sell you short that you don't deserve it or can't handle it or that someone should have power over you. I hope people will come to their senses soon.

Anyway, I've reached a point where I know communism isn't a joke anymore because we've truly screwed up that much. These are extraordinary times we live in. Yet all the information I've got says it doesn't necessarily make people happy or heroic and courageous fighter for justice. They are still human and have all their imperfections to reconcile with. Maybe thats forgivable in the long run but there are some really dangerous illusions riding on it. I may come up with something but I'm less and less sure I'm going to like the outcome as time goes on. In one sense, I'm lost, but in other I've found what I was looking for. The hardest words in the english language are "I don't know". Its also hard finding the ways to let go of the poisonous and authoritarian need for certainty, if only to be seen to be right. So rather than pretend otherwise I just wanted to say: don't listen to the fear, don't be persauded to be something you're not in the name of absolutes, stay free and don't give up. There are worse things in the world than admitting you can get it wrong and can make mistakes. There's always tommorrow to try again.

Best wishes everyone. :)
Do you think it is better to design a system top down, or bottom up?
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If you keep hitting your head against a brick wall, its time to stop and say.."owwwww!"

I'm going to have to learn to "think" again as the fear has been making the decisions for quite a while. my head is not very clear but if I give it time it will get better. New adventures and new horizons await!

Thanks btw. :)

You are very welcome Laika. And don't be too hard on yourself. Life is a journey, and hopefully a growing experience for all of us. When I think of the 20 something me as opposed to the now me (I will be fifty Feb. 4), I wonder who that guy was. I was not a bad person, just different than now. We all grow, change, and become. Its all part of the human condition. Hopefully we all "become" someone we have peace with.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member

Did you listen to that while writing your post?

Afraid not dude. :D

Really, such is an appropriate response for any ideology. Of course it's not always really that simply, especially when it comes to religious dogma, and we may not always know necessarily what is better, but if we find something truly better then why not adopt it?

I won't stop you finding the truth if that's what you want. I'm just overdosing on reality after reading, watching and thinking on this for eight years and need to stop. There's too much passion for me to see and think clearly. Time will help.

Do you think it is better to design a system top down, or bottom up?

It usually happens first that it gets built bottom up as a spontaneous mass movement of protest but then the elites finish the job by organising it into part of a status quo.

You are very welcome Laika. And don't be too hard on yourself. Life is a journey, and hopefully a growing experience for all of us. When I think of the 20 something me as opposed to the now me (I will be fifty Feb. 4), I wonder who that guy was. I was not a bad person, just different than now. We all grow, change, and become. Its all part of the human condition. Hopefully we all "become" someone we have peace with.

Yeah. I've had that feeling of looking back at my 19 year old self getting into communism and wondering wtf I was doing. I have tried to imagine what I would tell him but it comes out quite a muddle. I think giving him a hug and making him feel loved would do just as well.
 
Last edited:

allfoak

Alchemist
KnowThyself.jpg
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
It usually happens first that it gets built bottom up as a spontaneous mass movement of protest but then the elites finish the job by organising it into part of a status quo.

I did not say "built" nor did I ask what is usual. I said "designed" and asked what is better.

But assuming your answers are still the same regardless of verbage, on what principles ought the best system or organization be designed?
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
I actually have come to deeply loathe communism. But I'm stuck wondering what to do. When it comes down to it I have got so fed up of the "politics of fear" that is now used to control and manipulate us, I'd want to believe anything if its something positive. Just as long as it gets rid of the depression and gives me a sense of my own value. Its been hard to admitt because its so intimately connected with my self-worth that admitting I was wrong or could be wrong would be painful or humiliating. But here I am. I was wrong about communism in alot of ways and I was wrong on alot of other things. I'm not giving up on myself though.

I have never wholly heartedly believed either in the necessity of political violence or of the "dictatorship of the proletariat". Nor have I wanted to force others to believe as I believe (except perhaps out of desperation, vanity or loneliness). The moment you think deeply about violence and what it does to people it just makes your ideals absurd. Good intentions become ridiculous. What I wanted was to believe that I can have a better future, that we can make it better by our own efforts and that I have some degree of control over my life. I just wanted to believe something empowering that make me feel like I had some value and could make a difference and that my time on this earth would amount to something.

But the sort of environment that liberal or "free" socities have become makes that almost impossible. They value the ideavof the individual and yet loathe the real thing as too imperfect to be good or true. When your told by the media and politicans to be afriad of everything ranging from climate change, terrorism, crime, immigration, the stock market, unemployment, the creeping power of government, the erosion of online privacy, and all the other stuff- you reach a point where you know you're just being manipulated but you don't know by who or how. Its doesn't even matter whether its fake news or not as the effect is the same. You are not being informed by honest truth seekers or intelligent advocates who are capable of compromise and seeing another person's point of view. You are not being educated to empower you but are being starved of information to make you easier to control.

As far as I can tell the champions of individualism have only made us feel small, vunerable and then round us up like cattle to agree with one view or another depending on how well it serves their interests. They talk about liberty but then make you feel powerless to use it. And then they are shocked and appalled that there is a wave of extremism and populism coming from the right and the left. The endless torrent of moral outrage to serve the narcassistic vindication of small minds, trying to make the world small by narrowing their vision to fit with their partisan dogmas only devalues liberty as a humane ideal into the currency of manipulation. The worst thing about it is how they are using the language of freedom to convince us to give it up or make the world so unsafe that freedom could dissappear entirely.

I have to admit that I'd dump communism at the first oppurtunity if I saw something better come along as its capacity for atrocity is repulsive. That feels disloyal in a way but you should be loyal to people not principles as people matter more. there just isn't a space in free societies where you can hear yourself think. You don't hear the dreamers anymore- just partisan salesmen pushing fear as a marketing tool. The hopelessness and despair of "free" societies is toxic and I don't know what to do about it or how I fit in to this big hideously messy puzzle.

Having been on the fringes of extremism for many years, I can only watch others become as extreme with horror as people's vulerabilities are exploited to serve dictatorial ends. I can't and I don't want to reconcile with the nihilism of it. Until I can find something better or else solve its problems I'm still a communist but I really don't know where it leaves me. I had to make alot of mistakes to get to where I am but I can't tell if its a real mistake or just innocent human error. Freedom is a great idea and don't let anyone sell you short that you don't deserve it or can't handle it or that someone should have power over you. I hope people will come to their senses soon.

Anyway, I've reached a point where I know communism isn't a joke anymore because we've truly screwed up that much. These are extraordinary times we live in. Yet all the information I've got says it doesn't necessarily make people happy or heroic and courageous fighter for justice. They are still human and have all their imperfections to reconcile with. Maybe thats forgivable in the long run but there are some really dangerous illusions riding on it. I may come up with something but I'm less and less sure I'm going to like the outcome as time goes on. In one sense, I'm lost, but in other I've found what I was looking for. The hardest words in the english language are "I don't know". Its also hard finding the ways to let go of the poisonous and authoritarian need for certainty, if only to be seen to be right. So rather than pretend otherwise I just wanted to say: don't listen to the fear, don't be persauded to be something you're not in the name of absolutes, stay free and don't give up. There are worse things in the world than admitting you can get it wrong and can make mistakes. There's always tommorrow to try again.

Best wishes everyone. :)
I feel your pain. Or more properly, I've felt your pain. We've talked before; it's possible to journey from Marxism to...something else.

On the plus side, you have spent a lot of time getting very familiar with your subject (I spent several years with almost no one to talk to because none of the other Marxists I new actually knew as much as I did, hadn't read all the same stuff, etc.--and it was impossible to talk with non-Marxists where I grew up, because they were already filled anti-Communist John Birch type nonsense...)...and I think you will find a way to make it all continue to work...I think that I do, after all...

Just keep on truckin'
upload_2017-1-28_17-30-11.jpeg
upload_2017-1-28_17-30-11.jpeg
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I feel your pain. Or more properly, I've felt your pain. We've talked before; it's possible to journey from Marxism to...something else.

On the plus side, you have spent a lot of time getting very familiar with your subject (I spent several years with almost no one to talk to because none of the other Marxists I new actually knew as much as I did, hadn't read all the same stuff, etc.--and it was impossible to talk with non-Marxists where I grew up, because they were already filled anti-Communist John Birch type nonsense...)...and I think you will find a way to make it all continue to work...I think that I do, after all...

Just keep on truckin'
View attachment 15992View attachment 15992

The social isolation has become a major problem as there isn't somewhere I can go to let off steam about all the moral, social and psychological negatives (except RF) nor anyone I can turn to inorder to ask questions, get some sort of guidance or reassurance. Without a party to join it feels very futile like a drop in an ocean.

The thought of going "more extreme" just hurts because I'd be pushing people away. I'm not sure how many people realise how difficult it is to pursue "dangerous" ideas in free societies because whilst the government may offically only watch, you are still living with the consequences in every other way with the unhealthy mix of paranoia, anxiety and everything else. So its complicated' messy and unpleasant- particularly when no-one expect you to succeed in the first place.

The best analogy is the sort of mad scientist trying to develop a flying machine in the middle ages. As much as you keep trying, sometimes you just want to destroy the dam thing for all it costs you. You can't be sure it works until you've actually done it but until then you're left with the agony of people watching you drive it over the cliff and falling into the ocean with a big splash. Trying to put a brave face on it only gets you so far before the frustration and anger takes over.

I recently have been watching this guy on youtube for inspiration and just to laugh at myself. I know this feeling well. :D

chuck-yeager-300x226.jpg


I did not say "built" nor did I ask what is usual. I said "designed" and asked what is better.

But assuming your answers are still the same regardless of verbage, on what principles ought the best system or organization be designed?

The verbage matters. ;)

Trying to devise a system based on purely on first principles or from intelligent design is like creationism. It means substituting yourself for god when human beings don't possess either the omnipotence or omniscience to actually make their ideas work. So You can't will something into existence, it has to be already growing and developing.

If you are trying to build a flying machine from scratch, you look at it scientifically (or methodically by trial and error if you prefer). Rather than build on first principles that something that is "beautiful" or "divine" is practical based on the wisdom of the ancients, you study natural occurences of flight such as in birds. Using that then gives you an understanding of areodynamics from the shape of a birds wing to achieve enough lift and you can work from there. You've shown that these first principles may actually bear some relationship to reality rather than wholly on philosophical speculation or guess work.

wing_diagram.gif


Marxism is heavily into social evolution (and is arguably derivative of a form of social darwinism), so litterally the communist system "evolves" from what already exists. Its assumes that within capitalism there exists the proletariat as the class that will "grow" inti the revolutionary class that establishes socialism as a sort of organic process that occurs irrespective of individuals. The problem for me is that the only large scale working examples of communism which to draw inspiration from are exceedingly repulsive and disturbing.

Ideas go through a process of natural selection in society and so no single individual can concieve or build a system at once. Marx built on classical economics, french socialism and aspects of Hegel's thinking in german philosophy as pre-existing ideas. Ideas are like tools to describe and explain how things work. If the society hasn't developed the right "tool kit" for someone to come along and build an idea, it won't happen. Whilst Leonardo da vinci had sketches for a flying machine, he didn't necessarily have either the scientific understanding or technological means or economic conditions to build it as the "tools" were not avaliable at the time.

flyingmachine4_l.jpg


This is why the same idea can be developed by different people at the same time as the oppurtunity and necessity exist for developing them. So Marx and Engels came up with historical materialism simultaneously (along with the lesser known Joseph Dietzgen in the USA), like Darwin and Alfred Russell Wallace both came up with evolution by natural selection independently.

The difficulty for me, is that I lack the intellectual "tools" to find a satisfactory solution. there are huge gaps in my understanding that act as a limit to what I'd like to do so I keep going round in circles. Basically I haven't got to the stage where the idea will "take off" yet. :)

CpHSMufXEAAcEps.jpg
 
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