A creator and a singularity

[Heyo]

I've seen believers say there was nothing until a god created it, then came everything
I've seen non-believers say there was nothing until a singularity expanded, then came everything.

My question is, and I've asked in a few threads, never getting a very good answer(religious people say he just existed, non-religious people say the concept of pre doesn't calculate), if there was nothing then came everything by what ever means, what did a god or a singularity exist in before making everything come to be as what we know as the universe and all in it?

Whenever I think about it, I come to a paradox. (Whoever doesn't has just stopped thinking at a convenient point.)
A have a hunch that it might be helpful to study mathematics to get a bit deeper. We still don't understand infinity (at least I don't). The usual laws don't apply to infinities. If I could understand infinity, I could explain to you how the singularity could have existed for an infinite time and non-the-less start to expand at a given time.

 

[PureX]

God may be a logical assumption for theists but it is a very illogical assumption as far as science and atheists are concerned.

Science has nothing to say about it, and atheists are clearly biased. Once we let go of the anthropomorphic god-person ideal, and allow that "God" is simply a term we humans use to refer to a profound mystery regarding existential origin, maintenance, and purpose, it stands on it's own.

An event horizon is a state before which science does not know exactly what happened though they have various theories. After the event horizon thing are more or less understood.

Not really. According to a poll of astrophysicists, our knowledge of the universe is estimated at about 13%.

As I said, whether space-time existed before 'inflation' or not is not known to science, research continues.

Since space-time is an aspect of the expansion, it's unlikely to be an aspect of whatever existed prior to it in any recognizable form. In fact, nothing recognizable on this side of the event horizon is likely to exist in any recognizable way prior to it.

 

[halbhh]

Maybe there was something all along.

Bingo.

 

[halbhh]

Me too. I accept there is sooo much we don't know so we just fill in the blank spaces to what makes us happy to accept.
Either way in my opinion is blindly accepting something that is unknown and can't be shown.

That's right. I'd not believe in God because i couldn't explain existence. (Btw, I know the modern physics theories generally)

I believe in God from experience, reading and testing what Christ said.

But even though I never looked to it to know about God, the cosmological question is interesting.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Whenever I think about it, I come to a paradox. (Whoever doesn't has just stopped thinking at a convenient point.)
A have a hunch that it might be helpful to study mathematics to get a bit deeper. We still don't understand infinity (at least I don't). The usual laws don't apply to infinities. If I could understand infinity, I could explain to you how the singularity could have existed for an infinite time and non-the-less start to expand at a given time.

When you think of it. A finite universe alone is as impossible as much as eternalism alone is.

It seems to be actually both simultaneously.

It's why I think there is an eternal component somewhere.

 

[Jainarayan]

A multiverse from infinity to infinity. The multiverse has no beginning or end. It’s not static but dynamic with “sub-universes” coming into and going out of existence like bubbles being formed from another universe and pinched off. The singularities in our universe could be spawning other universes. Who knows? I think it’s a fun thought experiment.

 

[Mock Turtle]

The universe, multiverse or not, logically has to have had a beginning where time and space were born. What you have said in this post about existence has to have existence is after this beginning, not prior. Prior to it, logically there cannot have been an existence of what we know as existence because causality is fundamental. Existence by nature can only be in the form of existence, and cannot be in any other form but existence itself. If the universe, or the bubble bath of universes had a beginning, it is then this so called existence came into existence. Prior to that, logically we can only assume there was nothing from what can comprehend from a naturalistic point of view.

The problem with that is if there was nothing, it cannot cause itself to suddenly be an existence because existence itself is necessary to cause something. Thus, when there was no existence, it is only logical to argue of a necessary existence which had no beginning, which makes it a "necessary existence". Thats the only logical conclusion.

As a theist, I will argue that this is a necessary being, who I call God. I dont know what you will call it.

I think I'm too old now to comprehend how the universe or any multiples came into existence, and for me, any causation doesn't point to a God, other than just being - that which creates a universe or universes - and for me again, nothing necessarily follows from this. Any physics I might have had which might help has long gone.

 

[firedragon]

I think I'm too old now to comprehend how the universe or any multiples came into existence, and for me, any causation doesn't point to a God, other than just being - that which creates a universe or universes - and for me again, nothing necessarily follows from this. Any physics I might have had which might help has long gone.

Its actually not an empiricists topic.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Its actually not an empiricists topic.

Well whatever it is, it does bother me - still. But not enough to go searching for answers.

 

[firedragon]

Well whatever it is, it does bother me - still. But not enough to go searching for answers.

Thats great.

 

[Aupmanyav]

-Science has nothing to say about it, and atheists are clearly biased. Once we let go of the anthropomorphic god-person ideal, and allow that "God" is simply a term we humans use to refer to a profound mystery regarding existential origin, maintenance, and purpose, it stands on it's own.
- Not really. According to a poll of astrophysicists, our knowledge of the universe is estimated at about 13%.
- Since space-time is an aspect of the expansion, it's unlikely to be an aspect of whatever existed prior to it in any recognizable form. In fact, nothing recognizable on this side of the event horizon is likely to exist in any recognizable way prior to it.

- That is not the majority opinion about God.
Will science accept that God made the universe in six days? Will science accept that God made women from the ribs of man? Will science agree that there was a flood all over the world when even the highest mountain was covered with water for the depth of so many thousand feet? Surely, scientific views differ from this.
- 13% is fine. The end of days is not tomorrow, science will continue to work on what it does not know.
- Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation gives us hints about what existed before 'inflation'. Your guesses are OK. I too have my guesses that existence and non-existence are just phases of 'what exists', but science does not go by guesses of laymen. They have their own methodology. Are you a prophet to say that we would never find the answer?

 

[osgart]

Are there other singularities out there that play out drastically different than our singularity? Perhaps an infinite array of subtle differences in how singularities become universes. If you appeal to a multiverse then that multiverse has a fine tuning problem. The whole spectrum of possibilities for singularities must play out, or only certain singularities can come to fruition.

Maybe a higher dimensional brane spits out singularities. And our singularity is one of the few that can birth universes. Maybe the brane is perpetual, and eternal.

Is our universe the only possible universe, or is there a multiverse generator with other possibilities?

Is time dependent on matter and energy, or vice versa? Or is time independent of matter and energy, and only reacts with matter and energy through space and gravity?

As far as a creator goes doesn't that depend on their being intelligence in the laws of physics?

Maybe existence adapts, and all possibilities evolve til the ones that can survive will. Universal evolution. Multiverse evolution. Where competing universes emerge.

Something or someone has to be eternal though.

 

[PureX]

-- Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation gives us hints about what existed before 'inflation'.

No, it really doesn't.

Your guesses are OK. I too have my guesses that existence and non-existence are just phases of 'what exists', but science does not go by guesses of laymen. They have their own methodology. Are you a prophet to say that we would never find the answer?

Science can only explore the physicality of what exists. It cannot explore what doesn't exist in any way, nor what we imagine to not exist.

Logically, "non-existence" is a self-negating concept. There can be no such condition, or state. There is only 'what is'. There is no 'what isn't'.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I've seen believers say there was nothing until a god created it, then came everything
I've seen non-believers say there was nothing until a singularity expanded, then came everything.
My question is, and I've asked in a few threads, never getting a very good answer(religious people say he just existed, non-religious people say the concept of pre doesn't calculate), if there was nothing then came everything by what ever means, what did a god or a singularity exist in before making everything come to be as what we know as the universe and all in it?

First of all, as Psalms 90:2 says God is from everlasting. That means God had No beginning.
'Eternity is in our hearts' because for each day we can count we can count forever both forwards and backwards.
First, God (Creator) created the in-visible heavenly realm of existence. Angels before humans.
The ' what ever means ' according to Scripture is by God's Power and Strength - Isaiah 40:26 B.
In other words, God supplied the necessary dynamic energy to create both the in-visible and then the visible realm.
As to ' what did God exist in.....' apparently God existed in His heavenly home as per 1 Kings 8:39,49.
However, Scripture does Not list God's ZIP code.

 

[Clara Tea]

I've seen believers say there was nothing until a god created it, then came everything
I've seen non-believers say there was nothing until a singularity expanded, then came everything.

My question is, and I've asked in a few threads, never getting a very good answer(religious people say he just existed, non-religious people say the concept of pre doesn't calculate), if there was nothing then came everything by what ever means, what did a god or a singularity exist in before making everything come to be as what we know as the universe and all in it?

Based on the tremendous force of gravity, it is supposed that the universe used to be a singularity. But that makes no sense since physical laws would have been meaningless.

I prefer to think that a singularity never existed.

Rather, I think that the universe was held from complete collapse by quantum mechanical forces (and perhaps some thermal properties and explosions).

 

[Clara Tea]

No, it really doesn't.
Science can only explore the physicality of what exists. It cannot explore what doesn't exist in any way, nor what we imagine to not exist.

Logically, "non-existence" is a self-negating concept. There can be no such condition, or state. There is only 'what is'. There is no 'what isn't'.

Next time I don't exist, I plan to argue with you about that.

 

[Clara Tea]

First of all, as Psalms 90:2 says God is from everlasting. That means God had No beginning.
'Eternity is in our hearts' because for each day we can count we can count forever both forwards and backwards.
First, God (Creator) created the in-visible heavenly realm of existence. Angels before humans.
The ' what ever means ' according to Scripture is by God's Power and Strength - Isaiah 40:26 B.
In other words, God supplied the necessary dynamic energy to create both the in-visible and then the visible realm.
As to ' what did God exist in.....' apparently God existed in His heavenly home as per 1 Kings 8:39,49.
However, Scripture does Not list God's ZIP code.

I wonder if the universe expands until time runs backwards, then starts over at the big bang?

As the universe expands, and exceeds the speed of light in a vacuum, two distant stars would be traveling away from each other at the speed of light. If stars are still further, they will exceed the speed of light. According to special relativity, time dilation, time will become imaginary at that point.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I wonder if the universe expands until time runs backwards, then starts over at the big bang?
As the universe expands, and exceeds the speed of light in a vacuum, two distant stars would be traveling away from each other at the speed of light. If stars are still further, they will exceed the speed of light. According to special relativity, time dilation, time will become imaginary at that point.

In Scripture God stretches out the heavens - Jeremiah 10:12; Isaiah 42:5
In Scripture it does Not say until time runs backwards.
Rather, 'Earth abides forever' - Ecclesiastes 1:4 B; Psalms 104:5.
During Jesus coming 1000-year reign over Earth at that time we will learn more of what God has in store for us.

 

[Etritonakin]

I've seen believers say there was nothing until a god created it, then came everything
I've seen non-believers say there was nothing until a singularity expanded, then came everything.

My question is, and I've asked in a few threads, never getting a very good answer(religious people say he just existed, non-religious people say the concept of pre doesn't calculate), if there was nothing then came everything by what ever means, what did a god or a singularity exist in before making everything come to be as what we know as the universe and all in it?

Logically, there could never have been absolute nothing.
Two statements I have heard from the science side of things are...
"It just was"... and "In the beginning was simplicity".

From the religious side, many do not consider the possibility that God developed.
However, many biblical scriptures actually indicate such....
which is, was and is to come -alpha and omega -first and last, most high -I AM THAT AM, etc.

If God developed from greatest possible simplicity, God would still be eternal -as time really would not apply to simplicity -and if there was never nothing.
Time -basically a measure of relative motion/activity -would apply to a greater degree as complexity increased.

Therefore, the starting point is no different.
The question is at what point did a complex awareness or self-awareness first develop.
Certain things must precede and lead to a self-awareness -and certain things are not possible until a self-awareness exists -and those things are indicative of such.
That which happens is absolutely inevitable until reality can be mirrored/modeled in memory -changed by processing/will -and those intended changes are applied to reality.
Those changes would be indicative of the needs/psychology of such a self-awareness.
It is the extreme purposeful complexity of the universe -the formation of countless environments preceding physical inhabitants -from which they can look out in awe and wonder -the atoms which lend themselves to DNA and its self-replication -mass-produced life forms -and which are also building blocks that can be manipulated and experienced by developing life forms in many different ways... which indicate forethought.

The singularity which became our universe could not have been very simple -as it must have contained the information necessary to transform that which was into our universe specifically.
More of a very complex seed than a haphazard bang.

 

[Etritonakin]

In Scripture God stretches out the heavens - Jeremiah 10:12; Isaiah 42:5
In Scripture it does Not say until time runs backwards.
Rather, 'Earth abides forever' - Ecclesiastes 1:4 B; Psalms 104:5.
During Jesus coming 1000-year reign over Earth at that time we will learn more of what God has in store for us.

21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.