A Different Look at Fascism and its Future

[Sunstone]

John Micheal Greer makes a lengthy -- but extremely fascinating -- argument that genuine fascism has historically risen out of the political center (rather than from either the extreme Right or Left), and that the US and many other nations are currently in danger of it because their traditional parties no longer represent the center of the political spectrum -- thus creating a vacuum out which fascism can arise.

Fascism and the Future: Part One: Up from Newspeak.

Fascism and the Future: Part Two: The Totalitarian Center.

Fascism and the Future: Part Three: Weimar America.

His thinking on this issue strikes me as some of the most interesting I've read in quite some time. But I don't know enough about fascism to say whether he -- or whether the conventional thinking -- is closer to the truth.

What do you make of his arguments?

 

[Amechania]

i always considered fascism to be the extreme incarnation of the political ideal of "fraternite" a motto of the French revolution, that is "brotherhood" to the exception of individual liberties, the preeminence of the state, etc. Sort of the way communism might be considered an extreme form of "egalitie" in which all are essentially equal in poverty, or the way that extreme "liberte" is exemplified by the imagined freedom of laissez-faire capitalism. I think we need look no further than Putin's Russia to see the rise of a de-facto fascist system in our modern world.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

For some, extremes are necessary, as there are always going to be people who follow them. For others, extremes are things to avoid, while the center is seen as the most beneficial. Personally, I dislike fascism, as it places the state as more important than the individual. It's basically a denial of basic human rights and liberties. I've read things that have said that fascism is actually, or at least born out of, a more centrist position, but from what I've studied, it seems to me to be far right-wing. And yes, the US has been there for quite some time, and there are those who would like to see it headed that way much quicker, even if they don't realize what it is. But then again, many Americans are quite unaware of even the most basic political philosophy.

 

[Amechania]

Fascism is right-wing extremism that tends to arise once the center has collapsed. Fascists need to foster an us-against-them mentality to gain political purchase, i.e. a racial minority, an external enemy, or some other presumed injustice.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Fascism is right-wing extremism that tends to arise once the center has collapsed. Fascists need to foster an us-against-them mentality to gain political purchase, i.e. a racial minority, an external enemy, or some other presumed injustice.

I think this is why such extreme right-wing political views mix so well with conservative forms of Christianity in the US: the right wing has convinced conservative Christians that the US is a Christian nation, under attack from the satan-serving liberals, and poof-instant religious-political marriage, each one feeding off the other. This makes the "United" in United States mostly a joke, as it's meant to divide the country.

 

[Amechania]

I think this is why such extreme right-wing political views mix so well with conservative forms of Christianity in the US: the right wing has convinced conservative Christians that the US is a Christian nation, under attack from the satan-serving liberals, and poof-instant religious-political marriage, each one feeding off the other. This makes the "United" in United States mostly a joke, as it's meant to divide the country.

That is certainly something to be on guard against. When reason is sacrificed on the altar of fear it stirs the ghosts of fascists past, like Mussolini or (shudder) Hitler.

 

[Penumbra]

John Micheal Greer makes a lengthy -- but extremely fascinating -- argument that genuine fascism has historically risen out of the political center (rather than from either the extreme Right or Left), and that the US and many other nations are currently in danger of it because their traditional parties no longer represent the center of the political spectrum -- thus creating a vacuum out which fascism can arise.

Fascism and the Future: Part One: Up from Newspeak.

Fascism and the Future: Part Two: The Totalitarian Center.

Fascism and the Future: Part Three: Weimar America.

His thinking on this issue strikes me as some of the most interesting I've read in quite some time. But I don't know enough about fascism to say whether he -- or whether the conventional thinking -- is closer to the truth.

What do you make of his arguments?

I read the articles; seems legit.

The article talks about the origins of the word fascism and how it's thrown around ignorantly, without context, and so it doesn't mean anything, and the word didn't even really mean anything to begin with. Just a buzzword basically, and that there are more specific descriptions of totalitarian regimes or dictatorships. He argues that's the problem of American politics as a whole; that it's devolved into a shouting match.

His point is interesting about what people think if as "fascism" arising out of the political center. It seems a valid, well-researched description.

So he paints a theoretical picture of how a much worse political regime could gradually rise out of democratic political dysfunction in a failed state, based on peoples' ignorance and desperation.

 

[LuisDantas]

Sunstone, the second link should be to The Archdruid Report: Fascism and the Future, Part Two: The Totalitarian Center , shouldn't it?

 

[Sunstone]

Sunstone, the second link should be to The Archdruid Report: Fascism and the Future, Part Two: The Totalitarian Center , shouldn't it?

Yes. Thanks, Luis! I've fixed it.

 

[Sunstone]

His point is interesting about what people think if as "fascism" arising out of the political center. It seems a valid, well-researched description.

I'm thinking if a fascist party arose out of the center in the US, it would in many respects, look progressive, since the polling shows that many progressive positions are held by a majority of Americans. For instance, the political center, including even a slight majority of Republicans, favor higher taxes on the rich. The political center also favors a guaranteed minimum wage, a more equitable distribution of wealth, and so forth. All positions that Progressives tend to embrace.

 

[Breathe]

I'm thinking if a fascist party arose out of the center in the US, it would in many respects, look progressive, since the polling shows that many progressive positions are held by a majority of Americans. For instance, the political center, including even a slight majority of Republicans, favor higher taxes on the rich. The political center also favors a guaranteed minimum wage, a more equitable distribution of wealth, and so forth. All positions that Progressives tend to embrace.

I imagine it'd be pretty similar to this, as well, myself.

I think to consider fascism to be placed on the far-right political scale would be to inaccurately describe it. Fascism combines left and right ideas, and I think that fascism can be against the minority (populist) or against the status-quo (I dunno of a term for this?), and this isn't just misusing the term authoritarian.

For all we know, a fascist party, when it arises in the future (and I do think it will), could be an extreme form of progressivism. I think it could be something that would arise from noble intentions that are hijacked by a few others, and it could still hold onto fascist ideals: instead of nationalism, globalism and multiculturalism, and taking ideals of equality and giving others special treatment, while making another group a scapegoat: before, it was a minority group, but I think it could still happen in the future attacking what is perceived as the majority.
That is, fascism in the future could very well be from an "anti-fascist" group or groups, who want to make the world a better place.

Then again, I think every collective thinks what they are doing is for the good of the world.

And so on, but I'm making something to eat, so I'll stop for now.

 

[Tarheeler]

I'll have to read the links when I have more time, but I'll go ahead and offer my rant anyway .

I think it's wrong to try to say that fascism is a centrist or populist position, but it's what we do because we try to shoehorn everything into a left-right dichotomy. Fascism does have things in common with both sides of the spectrum as we see it, but it is an ideology that falls outside of our classifications ( much like libertarian socialism and similar systems) with fairly distinguishable characteristics.

But I'd do think we're always in danger of seeing it flair up; fascism takes typically benign ideas that can be used to bolster a society and are often seen as generally good ideas by the population (nationalism, equality, social infrastructure, focus on the whole) and pursues them to the extreme and to the detriment of all else. Ideas that can be used to give a sense of inclusion and belonging are used to create an us-versus-them mentality and to demonize outside groups. Things that should be used to help lift everyone up and to help both the individual and the group to prosper are used to strip away individuality and to bolster a dominate state regime.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

If we define it as a centrist/progressive political philosophy, then what's the issue with it?

 

[LuisDantas]

If we define it as a centrist/progressive political philosophy, then what's the issue with it?

That we have so far failed utterly at containing its excesses.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

That we have so far failed utterly at containing its excesses.

I think this is problem with any political philosophy. Socialism, if done correctly, can be a great thing, yet it's ever hardly done correctly. Capitalism has it's good points, but still it's failed at every turn. Personally, I'm beginning to take the view that politics is never going to be anything more than a force to gain power, regardless of the intentions or underlying philosophy of the various schools of thought.

 

[Tarheeler]

If we define it as a centrist/progressive political philosophy, then what's the issue with it?

While parts of it might be progressive, there is nothing centrist about it.

A centrist is typically going to between the poles and favor policies that show the moderate sides of the left and right. Fascism, in contrast, offers things that are typically seen in the more extreme ends of the spectrum: extreme nationalism, directed economy focused on state needs, focus on security and national economic independence, etc.

 

[Sunstone]

I'll have to read the links when I have more time, but I'll go ahead and offer my rant anyway .

I think it's wrong to try to say...

Greer is not saying what you're saying he's saying.

 

[Sunstone]

If we define it as a centrist/progressive political philosophy, then what's the issue with it?

Fascism is not a centrist political philosophy. It arises out of the abandoned political center. There's a subtle difference that will be made clear to you if you bother to read the links.

 

[Sunstone]

To be honest, you should read the links before you comment in this thread.

 

[Tarheeler]

Greer is not saying what you're saying he's saying.

I'm not saying he's saying anything. Like I said, I haven't had time to read the links yet; I skimmed through the first one, but it really deserves more than that.

My comments were in response to what had already been posted, and could probably be considered more along the lines of the "conventional thinking" you mentioned in the OP.

But you're right; I'll hold off on posting until I read them.