A fifth force of nature just discovered? It appears so.

[Aupmanyav]

Be careful. It may overturn Bahaullah. He has been very talkative. And when one speaks more, one makes more silly statements - just like Trump or Prince Charles.

Always something new to discover.

It would be no fun without that.

This completely overturns several religions.

If a religion can be overturned by physics, it would be good to see it go.

 

[Tumah]

It occurs to me that space time could be treated as a force

At least space is according to the US.
United States Space Force - Wikipedia

when inflation is faster than light.

This isn't the economics sub.

 

[Jedster]

Damnit, I thought you are the fifth force of nature.

Have you seen the film The Fifth Element

@Tumah is the fifth element

 

[Brickjectivity]

From the linked article in the OP:

" four forces ... They are gravity, electromagnetism, the weak nuclear force, and the strong force."

Why isn't 'Time' on the list? Time isn't a force?

Normally you discover force by measuring how far the apple falls in a given period of time, but you cannot rely on this if you stop accepting time. Ignoring time as a base unit you have to rework force in terms only of the mass it can move. That, however, is mass. Its semantically that concept. Force without time would be mass, so you could not define time as a force. You could, however, define it with a direction and magnitude. You could even have a time field in which time moved differently in different places. That doesnt mean we know what time is. It means force is partially a measurement of time. Time is involved with any measurable force.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

A 'no-brainer Nobel Prize': Hungarian scientists may have found a fifth force of nature - CNN

It kind of makes me wonder what unknown forces, if any, are still out there that we're not aware of yet.

Not the first time this news has been heralded. I can't link you to the book, obviously (now in its second edition) but here is a short article on it from Physics Today: The Rise and Fall of the Fifth Force: Discovery, Pursuit, and Justification in Modern Physics
As we don't currently have any consistent model of the longest known "force" that would enable us to understand it as such (i.e., as a "force" the way that we currently understand such things in modern physics, which is in terms of renormalizable QFT), discoveries of a new "force" would be less meaningful, novel, or illuminating than were the many announcements of new "particles" during the growth phase of the particle zoo in the mid-20th century.

 

[Howard Is]

" four forces ... They are gravity, electromagnetism, the weak nuclear force, and the strong force."
Why isn't 'Time' on the list? Time isn't a force?

What does it force?

.

Disappointment, divorce, wrinkles, boredom, rent....

 

[dybmh]

What does it force?

.

Here's what I was thinking...

Time is not fully understood by science ( as far as I know ). It reminds me in a way of light ( electromagnetic radiation ) which is on the list. I don't see time as a fixed "measurement". I see it as something in perpetual motion. I do not expect science to find a way to literally halt the progress of time. If that's true, then the nature of Time might be able to described as a force? Maybe not?

I just didn't think that the physics community had enough of an understanding of the nature of Time to rule it out as a force. But I was thinking more philosophically, rather than "by the numbers"...

 

[dybmh]

boredom

Good example...

Parrots come to mind... what is the mechanism that renders aggression from boredom in parrots. ( link )

Time + Isolation = Boredom? What causes this, is it Time, is it Isolation? and how does that effect the brain of a Parrot. What is happening on a neuro-biological level in the parrot... what is the effect of Time on this process of a Parrot becoming aggressive as a function of Time? and can that be described a a force?

I don't know.

Practical application?

I don't know.

But that's a good example of what I was thinking about.

 

[dybmh]

@Skwim, @Polymath257 ,@Shadow Wolf ,

What about the law of entropy?

What other forces are involved in "things trending towards chaos" except for Time? Is there a formula or equation that describes the law of entropy as a function? And if so, what "forces" are involved?

Edit to add...

What About the molecular demon????? ( Molecular demon - Wikipedia )

Maybe the demon is an example of the "force" of Time ? But science hasn't found the connection yet...

I don't know, I'm just brainstorming...

 

[Revoltingest]

At least space is according to the US.
United States Space Force - Wikipedia


This isn't the economics sub.

Once again, I've gotten things confused.

 

[Revoltingest]

@Skwim, @Polymath257 ,@Shadow Wolf ,

What about the law of entropy?

What other forces are involved in "things trending towards chaos" except for Time? Is there a formula or equation that describes the law of entropy as a function? And if so, what "forces" are involved?

Entropy is a result of another force.
Think of some atoms banging around in a flask.
(Their velocities & density determine temperature.)
They bounce off of each other due to repelling charges.
.This behavior gives us entropy.

 

[Polymath257]

@Skwim, @Polymath257 ,@Shadow Wolf ,

What about the law of entropy?

What other forces are involved in "things trending towards chaos" except for Time? Is there a formula or equation that describes the law of entropy as a function? And if so, what "forces" are involved?

In physics, the term 'force' has a very specific meaning. It relates the amount of mass to the amount of acceleration. Alternatively, it is the rate of change of potential energy per unit distance.

The second law of thermodynamics is a statistical law. There are known violations in small systems. In essence, the 2LOT says that energy goes from the less probable distribution to the more probable.

Edit to add...

What About the molecular demon????? ( Molecular demon - Wikipedia )

Maybe the demon is an example of the "force" of Time ? But science hasn't found the connection yet...

I don't know, I'm just brainstorming...

See above. The term 'force' has a specific meaning.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

I just didn't think that the physics community had enough of an understanding of the nature of Time to rule it out as a force.

I'm going to drastically oversimplify, which I hate:
Forces in physics mediate interactions. In most cases forces are simply useful ways to look a specific kinds of interactions among/between bodies or particles or what have you that are not "fundamental" in the sense that they emerge from more fundamental interactions acting on bodies. Friction, for example, is a force, but it is not fundamental because it can be better explained in a fundamental sense in terms of much smaller interactions among systems composed of many particles.
Even in the fundamental forces there exists redundancies. The electroweak lagrangian (theory) is already a unification of electromagnetism and the weak force, and electromagetism is not the EM you learn about in classical field theory or an E&M course (for one thing, even classical magnetism is a derived "force" due to relativistic interactions). The forces themselves are "composed" of kinds of particles of sorts (bosons) that mediate interactions among so-called fundamental/elementary particles, so that
1) The distinction between forces and the things they act on becomes blurred at a fundamental level, making forces more of an organizing scheme
2) Mediation is attributed to kinds of particles (like photons in QED) that become difficult theoretically/phenomenologically from the mediating "particles".

If it helps, in a sense time is a "force" in that, because our best theory of gravitation is the dynamical local interaction between spacetime and mass/energy, and time is a component of spacetime, time is kind of a modern "classical" force we are trying to make consistent with actually modern "forces"
That said, time is usually either a parameter or a coordinate in the space in which interactions take place. It is not a force for the same reason a different spatial coordinate is not a force. It is the background space in which forces and the things they act on interact, not something that determines/mediates such interactions.

 

[dybmh]

I'm going to drastically oversimplify, which I hate:
Forces in physics mediate interactions. In most cases forces are simply useful ways to look a specific kinds of interactions among/between bodies or particles or what have you that are not "fundamental" in the sense that they emerge from more fundamental interactions acting on bodies. Friction, for example, is a force, but it is not fundamental because it can be better explained in a fundamental sense in terms of much smaller interactions among systems composed of many particles.
Even in the fundamental forces there exists redundancies. The electroweak lagrangian (theory) is already a unification of electromagnetism and the weak force, and electromagetism is not the EM you learn about in classical field theory or an E&M course (for one thing, even classical magnetism is a derived "force" due to relativistic interactions). The forces themselves are "composed" of kinds of particles of sorts (bosons) that mediate interactions among so-called fundamental/elementary particles, so that
1) The distinction between forces and the things they act on becomes blurred at a fundamental level, making forces more of an organizing scheme
2) Mediation is attributed to kinds of particles (like photons in QED) that become difficult theoretically/phenomenologically from the mediating "particles".

If it helps, in a sense time is a "force" in that, because our best theory of gravitation is the dynamical local interaction between spacetime and mass/energy, and time is a component of spacetime, time is kind of a modern "classical" force we are trying to make consistent with actually modern "forces"
That said, time is usually either a parameter or a coordinate in the space in which interactions take place. It is not a force for the same reason a different spatial coordinate is not a force. It is the background space in which forces and the things they act on interact, not something that determines/mediates such interactions.

Thank you.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm going to drastically oversimplify, which I hate:
Forces in physics mediate interactions. In most cases forces are simply useful ways to look a specific kinds of interactions among/between bodies or particles or what have you that are not "fundamental" in the sense that they emerge from more fundamental interactions acting on bodies. Friction, for example, is a force, but it is not fundamental because it can be better explained in a fundamental sense in terms of much smaller interactions among systems composed of many particles.
Even in the fundamental forces there exists redundancies. The electroweak lagrangian (theory) is already a unification of electromagnetism and the weak force, and electromagetism is not the EM you learn about in classical field theory or an E&M course (for one thing, even classical magnetism is a derived "force" due to relativistic interactions). The forces themselves are "composed" of kinds of particles of sorts (bosons) that mediate interactions among so-called fundamental/elementary particles, so that
1) The distinction between forces and the things they act on becomes blurred at a fundamental level, making forces more of an organizing scheme
2) Mediation is attributed to kinds of particles (like photons in QED) that become difficult theoretically/phenomenologically from the mediating "particles".

If it helps, in a sense time is a "force" in that, because our best theory of gravitation is the dynamical local interaction between spacetime and mass/energy, and time is a component of spacetime, time is kind of a modern "classical" force we are trying to make consistent with actually modern "forces"
That said, time is usually either a parameter or a coordinate in the space in which interactions take place. It is not a force for the same reason a different spatial coordinate is not a force. It is the background space in which forces and the things they act on interact, not something that determines/mediates such interactions.

I think that I misunderstand this on a higher level now.