A friendly debate regarding the merits of Christianity v that of Judaism in regards to salvation. (Anthony H Miller and Harel13).

[Anthony H Miller]

To those who have been following this one sided "debate", I apologize for my time away from the forum. Also i noticed an error in my misuse of the word weather in the my previous posts. The correct word should be whether as in; whichever one of the two, as opposed to the use of weather as in; atmospheric conditions. My apologies to those who caught that.

Regarding Christian baptism:

In Matthew 10:38-39, Jesus tells us that we must take up our cross. The understanding being that every one has a cross, but it is up to the individual to take it up. He tells us that in order for a man to find his life, he must loose it first. This loss of ones life is in reference to the symbolic crucifixion that takes place at baptism when the body of sin is destroyed as written in Romans 6:6. The found life is that of ones previously dead soul.
I cannot stress enough the importance of this basic Hebrew and Christian concept as taught in both testaments, the fact that the soul can and does die. The problem is that no one seems to be teaching that truth or even accepting it. Personally one needs to ask, why?

Regarding Elijah to come: To my Jewish brothers i would hope that you take seriously the words of Malachi the prophet, his words are relevant for today.
In chapter 4 verse 5, the Lord promises to send Elijah. The warning there is to embrace the words of this prophet when he comes or suffer the consequences of a curse.
Jesus was asked if John the baptist was Elijah. Jesus was claiming to be messiah and it was reasonable for the Jews of the day to ask that question, as they were obviously familiar with Malachi 4:5.

Luke 1: 17 the angel of the Lord tells Zacharias the priest that his son would be in the spirit of Elijah. He did not say this was Elijah in the flesh, only that the spirit of Elijah would be in John. See Matthew 11:14, Matthew 17:10-11,Mark 9:11-13.
This was the first advent of Messiah as the son of man.

All true Christians have a spiritual unction within; 1 John 2:21. As believers we have this desire to share or faith with others but don't necessarily know how to go about it. Some methods work and some don't. One sunny Sunday, myself and a few others had set up a 20x10 foot tent structure with the sides open to the public in the heart of our small city. We set up rows of chairs and a small pulpit. The girls cooked food and some brought deserts. This was for street people but i told them to cook like they were cooking for Jesus, (no leftovers or that kind of stuff).

As the service progressed, (no loud revival type stuff, no loud shouting, just simple preaching of the word), a young leather jacketed fellow came up and asked me if he could preach. I said, "by all means go right ahead."
I took the time to stand back a few feet from the tent to relax and observe. Subconsciously i began talking to the Spirit. I said "Jesus we didn't do anything, we just put up this tent, prepared some food and look, this place is packed!" To my surprise The Holy Spirit downloaded a scripture. It was the last sentence in Matthew 3:3. Prepare the way of the Lord, make His paths straight. At the same time He also gave me the meaning of that simple verse. I was so excited i went around to my fellow Christians saying; "Do you know what the duty of a Christian is? Do you know what the duty of a Christian is?"I will share this understanding.

As i said previously we have this desire to share the word but do not always know how to go about it. It is no leaving some bible tract here and there then running away. Or some stupid fake dollar bill on the sidewalk with a religious message or some condemning words like your going to hell, folks know what i mean.
It is not the job of believers to beat people over the head with a bible or try to cram the Holy Spirit into others. Our job is to simply prepare the way and make His path straight. If that is done correctly the Holy spirit will walk right into that open door. The open door being that of the heart. Those other methods i mentioned only turn people off. The door slams shut leaving a feeling of contempt towards those who do that, and it has negative repercussions that carry on for a long time.
There are a myriad of ways to accomplish our part like doing a kindness to or for someone, just use your God given imagination, but remember, It is not a Christians job to force that Holy Spirit into anyone. He walks in on His own accord all we do is prepare His way.

Some times we only get to plant a seed, but sometime later, perhaps many years down the road some brother or sister will come along and water that seed or place a little fertilizer, but it is God who makes it grow. Read 1 Corinthians chapter 3.

Elijah in spirit preceded Jesus the son of man in the flesh as the scripture said. Elijah to come in the flesh will be a different matter as he will precede Jesus the Son of God!
Jesus the Son of God will have a different name, Revelation 19:12. This will be a time of God's wrath but before that day Elijah will come.

Jews and Christians are both waiting for the coming of Messiah. Christians should understand that Elijah has implications for them as well as for Jews. So who is this Elijah to come?
Paul tells us in 1Thessalonians 4:18 the Lord will return to gather His people with the trump of God. In 1 Corinthians 15:52 he tells us that it will be at the last trump.

I want to point out a glaring error for those who study using a Scofield edition of the King James version of the scriptures.
Revelation 8:13 speaks of three woes by reason of the remaining three trumpets which have not yet sounded. To the right on the page Scofield references these three.
1 is Rev 9:12. 2 is Rev 11:14.
These references are correct and refer to trumpets 5and 6. . The third woe is clearly referring to the 7th trumpet. Rev 10:7 tells us that when the 7th angel sounds the mystery of God is finished!

His last reference to Rev 12:12 however is to an insignificant woe as pertaining to the trumpets. Revelation 12 goes into things past, present and future. Revelation does not read linearly as clearly shown in Rev 1:19. To interpret things that way is a mistake. The sounding of trumpet 7 is the end of salvation as relates to the accepting of Jesus the son of man as Messiah. Things change drastically after that 7th trumpet sounds. The next event after trumpet 7 is the arrival of Messiah the Son of God. When messiah Jesus son of man comes for His people He does not touch the earth, we simply meet Him in the air. 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

Trumpet 7 is the culmination of salvation as we know it, the next event after trumpet 7 where Messiah actually comes should be preceded first by the arrival of Elijah. That takes place in trumpet 6 or woe 2.
Trumpet 6 brings upheaval and a time of reckoning before it is all over regarding chances for salvation through Jesus. It is not pleasant. Revelation 1:3 brings the Lords two witnesses on the scene. Only two individuals from scripture have not died a physical death, that is Enoch and Elijah. Enoch has witnessed history from the time he was taken up until the present. Elijah has witnessed history from the time he was taken up until now.
They are the two olive trees from Zechariah chapter 4. One is Enoch the other is Elijah. They will return and accomplish their physical death as we all do. Hebrews 9:27. This will take place in that great city which is no longer called the Holy City.

Many so-called bible scholars reject ancient manuscripts and certain historical works when it does not fit their narrative, or the theology they represent. An example would be the works of the Jewish historian Josephus. Take a look at his account of the happenings in Jerusalem from 66Ad to 70Ad. You will find an accurate account of the situation beginning in book 5 chapter 1. As you read you might think you are reading from old testament Lamentations.
Another would be THE

 

[Anthony H Miller]

Sorry about the abrupt end of the previous post, i seem to have accidentally hit the wrong key and the post was prematurely sent.

Another would be "THE TESTAMENTS of the TWELVE PATRIARCHS." These were written around 107-137 B.C. The are the dying testaments of the sons of Israel. Any serious bible scholar should take them into account. They would have been well known by the Hebrew scholars of Jesus's day.

Because a manuscript did not make it's way into the bible as we know it today does not mean it is not legitimate. The last verse in the book of John tells us there is much more out there, we just have to sift through things. Keep in mind to always compare those things with what we know and accept as true scripture.

An interesting manuscript that measures up to that kind of scrutiny is the THE GOSPEL ACCORDING to NICODEMUS. In it he elaborates on much of what is found in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. There in chapter 20 he tells of two individuals who have been residing in Paradise and who have not yet met their physical deaths. These two happen to be Enoch and Elisha the Tishbite. They relate the reason for their being there., read it.
Revelation 11:7-8 tells us who will kill them and where these two will experience their earthly deaths. Ironically it is the same place John the baptist and Jesus met theirs. The big question is who is that beast that is occupying that seat in unholy Jerusalem? Are these the first to go in the so-called rapture? Notice that trumpet 7 follows immediately after. Is this when true Christians as a whole experience the same? Notice the last verse in Rev11:14. What did Jesus say in Rev 22:12? Notice the fulfillment of that promise in Rev:11:18. When these two prophets begin their testimony it would behoove any spiritually thinking person to listen to what they have to say. This is Elijah the Jews look for at Passover. I believe Elijah is unique to Israel and Enoch is to the rest of us.

Revelation 11 warns God's people not to be milling around in the court of God's temple at this time. They should be in the temple at the alter worshiping God, otherwise they will be trampled under foot.
This presents a tribulation scenario where the first 3.5 years will be tribulation at the hands of man. The second 3.5 years will be tribulation at the hands of God.
This will be a serious time when persecutions will arise but God will keep those who stay close to Him safe see Rev 3:10. My next topic will be the bride of Christ.

 

[Anthony H Miller]

By not understanding that there is a physical Zion and a spiritual Zion can lead to confusion. God speaks in the spiritual which is in fact the true reality. Our physical world is not our true existence, Christians reside in the spiritual. I believe there are individuals who, though they are not necessarily christian do also reside in that spiritual realm.

Isaiah 64-66, speaks of a mystery. The earthly or temporal Zion is in ruins, the holy house is burned up. Then, out of Jacob, and out of Judah comes a seed. Paul in Galatians 3:13-16 confirms this seed as being Jesus the messiah.
The servants referenced in 65:13 and 66:5 are the first Christians, they are all Jewish, and they are called by another name, verse 65:15.
65:17-25 is in reference to a future time and a spiritual Zion.

66:6 speaks of the city and the temple in which 64:10-12 describe as ultimately coming to ruins. This city and temple (temporal Zion) gives birth to a man child, (Jesus the messiah). 66 is also in reference to the New Jerusalem. Zion to be reestablished through the hands of God.

Adhering to Isaiah 28:9-12: Precept upon precept; line upon line; here a little, and there a little, let's see what we can find.
I have noticed God does not spoon feed, He likes for us to search with desire. It is like picking blue berries in the wild.

In Ephesians 5 Paul is teaching regarding the importance of marriage. In verse 31-32, he alludes to the relationship of the church and Christ and calls it a great mystery; remember the time-line, the year is around A.D 60. John has not written Revelation, the Temple has not yet fallen. Temporal Jerusalem is still intact. Wars and rumors of war are brewing. Jewish Christians are being hunted down and persecuted by their fellow Jews.
As a new Christian i questioned everything. If there was a doctrine out there that did not make sense, i set it aside until i could confirm or deny it through the scriptures, both Hebrew OT and Greek NT.

One puzzling teaching regarding the church was that Christians were the bride of Christ. This did not make sense because they taught that as Christians we were also guests who were invited to the wedding and would take part in wedding feast.
My carnal mind reasoned; How can one be getting married and also be considered a guest who has only an invitation to the wedding. Either you are the one getting married or you are a guest, you cannot be both!

For i am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob, are not consumed, Malachi 3:6. The point is that God does not change, He does things the same way He did at the beginning.

If, as scripture tells us Jesus is the second (Adam 1 Corinthians 15:45), it invites the question; where did the first Adam get his wife? Where does the second Adam get his wife and why did the first Adam need a wife in the first place?
As we know, God saw that Adam needed a help mate, so He caused a deep sleep to fall over Adam. He took one of his ribs, and Adam said, "this is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh". God provided a wife for Adam taken from Adams own body.

It is the same for the second Adam (Christ). Yes it is true, we as Christians are the body of Christ 1 Corinthians 12:12-27, but just as it was for the first Adam, the second Adam also needs a help mate. As it was for Adam a certain rest is also spoken of in reference to Christ ( Hebrews 4:9-11),
remember, it is around 68 A.D., Revelation has not been written, the mystery remains.

In most cultures the wife is chosen by her husband, there some exceptions but this is usually the way it happens; remember Jacob and Rachel, (Genesis 29:17-18). Matthew 20:16, 22:14.

Yes, all men are called and some answer the call and become believers. Those that follow that calling and become help mates to Christ have that opportunity be become His chosen.

Revelation 21:9; Come hither, i will show thee the bride, the Lambs wife. The scripture goes on to tell us that the bride is actually the Holy Jerusalem. It is comprised of certain men. These men were chosen by Jesus himself,( John 13:18, 15:16-19. Ephesians 1:4, Acts 9:15.

So how is it that the bride of Christ is actually our spiritual Mother, the one who birthed all us born again Christians? Galatians 4:26: But Jerusalem which is above is free , which is the MOTHER of us all (Christians). This is the Holy City spoken of in revelation. The question then becomes how and when are these men giving birth, can a man give birth? Jeremiah 30:6.

Early in my Christian years i had a controversy with the Apostle Paul. I took very seriously the words of Jesus when he said in Matthew 23:9; And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father which is in heaven. This kinda puts the kibosh on certain denominations who like to be called by that title.
My controversy with Paul came from 1 Timothy 1:2, 2 Timothy 1:2, and Titus 1:4: I thought, "Why Paul are you calling them your sons, inferring that you are their spiritual father when Jesus told you never to do that!" I thought. if any apostle should know better it would be Paul.

I never brought the subject up to the Lord or anyone else for that matter. Out of respect and admiration for Paul, i put it on the back burner of my mind and left it there.
It was only recently that the magnitude of what Paul was actually saying struck me like a ton of bricks; Galatians 4:19; My little children, of whom i travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you.

It was not as their spiritual Father that Paul was writing to Timothy and Titus, he was speaking to them as their spiritual MOTHER, the bride of Christ! Your spiritual mother is the one who led you to Christ. The bride is arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints; Rev 19:7-8. The foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones.

1 Peter 2:2-5; As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word , that ye may grow thereby; If so that ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious, to whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God and precious, Ye also as living stones are built up a spiritual house , an holy priesthood,to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

When i first read the above reference to stones i thought of them as simple stones until i had a dream; I was in the driveway of a fellow i had witnessed to some years back. We were talking when i noticed three pieces of gold in my hand. As i observed them they turned to three quartz like crystals. I continued to study them and i could see inside they were effervescing, i knew the were alive. It was then i realized the living stones mentioned in the scriptures were in fact Gemstones.

I think of my Christian journey as my 40 years wandering in the wilderness. I am amazed at what can be found there. I am sure others have experienced like discoveries. By no means am i setting myself up as some all knowing spiritual fellow. I simply want to communicate what i have found to be true and to share it with others who might care as i do.
To my Jewish brother and sisters know that true Christians have a sincere and deep love for you. We long for the day when you are truly reconciled to your God and ours.
For those who might want a glimpse of what the Holy City, the true Zion looks like, you can view a you-tube video titled; "Testimony of heaven, inside the Holy City," an interview with Oden Hetrick.

Children of Zion

Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the Lord has comforted His people, and will have mercy on His afflicted. But Zion said, The Lord hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me. Can a women forget her suckling child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea they may forget, yet will i not forget thee. Behold i have graven thee on the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me. Thy children shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth of thee. Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As i live, saith the Lord, thou shalt surly clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee as a bride doeth. Isaiah 49:13-18.

 

[King Phenomenon]

Jewish people and Christians believe in an afterlife , just differently in how that’s achieved so it’s all good.