A Gay Christian?

[Kahanu]

Hello can any one tell me where in the bible does it refer to homosexuals?

 

[Diederick]

Genetics are leaning in your favour. When and if it becomes established that it is in the genes, the onus is back on god.

The onus is always on God, since this is all HIS idea.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Is there a polite way to inform fundamentalist or evangilical christians that as a gay man you believe God accepts you as you are and you have no need to repent? How do you combat the concept that you are living a 'chosen' lifestyle?

Are you in a position where you have to deal with fundamentalist or evangelicals? I avoid them like the plague myself. If you must, be polite but don't expect such consideration in return.

 

[The Great Architect]

I do believe that God loves us all

 

[Diederick]

I do believe that God loves us all

I'm puzzled. What on earth does it mean when God 'loves' you?

I find it very hard to find any comfort in the notion that God loves everyone while reading through the Old Testament. Or are we talking about a different God here? If we are talking about Jesus, who is still only 1/3 of the Trinity, it becomes easier to accept that God loves everyone, including homosexuals. But then, Jesus never condemned homosexuality, if he condemned anything at all. Why is there such a big difference within the same God / Trinity, where the creation of Abraham gives us an impression of a pretentious tyrant which would be our God, and where Jesus' work sort of evens out the balance.

Not that I get anything of the whole sin-idea. I mean: this is all God's plan, from the descent of Satan into hell, to my birth as a gay man. Why does he do this to us? And why on earth would I love someone that gives me a defect and then expects me to fix it? Why do we need to suffer to be let into heaven? What purpose are we to God that he made us? God can't be lonely, because He is omnipotent, but then why is there so much misery in the world? How are we supposed to love someone that just sits and watches all this pain and agony, while he has all the power to intervene?

 

[The Great Architect]

I'm puzzled. What on earth does it mean when God 'loves' you?

I find it very hard to find any comfort in the notion that God loves everyone while reading through the Old Testament. Or are we talking about a different God here? If we are talking about Jesus, who is still only 1/3 of the Trinity, it becomes easier to accept that God loves everyone, including homosexuals. But then, Jesus never condemned homosexuality, if he condemned anything at all. Why is there such a big difference within the same God / Trinity, where the creation of Abraham gives us an impression of a pretentious tyrant which would be our God, and where Jesus' work sort of evens out the balance.

Not that I get anything of the whole sin-idea. I mean: this is all God's plan, from the descent of Satan into hell, to my birth as a gay man. Why does he do this to us? And why on earth would I love someone that gives me a defect and then expects me to fix it? Why do we need to suffer to be let into heaven? What purpose are we to God that he made us? God can't be lonely, because He is omnipotent, but then why is there so much misery in the world? How are we supposed to love someone that just sits and watches all this pain and agony, while he has all the power to intervene?

I was including you, me, and everybody else.:rainbow1::yes: At times, I cannot wrap my head around certain, fixed ideas of sin and immorality; as presented by some people. I don't believe that being gay is a sin.

And everybody suffers, imo. I won't address everything you've written right now... but there's too great an emphasis on sin.

 

[keithnurse]

Is there a polite way to inform fundamentalist or evangilical christians that as a gay man you believe God accepts you as you are and you have no need to repent? How do you combat the concept that you are living a 'chosen' lifestyle?

My father showed me a short article he had written about why same sex marriage and homosexuality are wrong and God doesn't approve of either of them. I responded by saying "I understand that that is what you believe and you have a right to your opinion. I, on the other hand look at this issue very differently. The code of sexual ethics says that homosexuality is not in and of itself wrong. Any sexual behavior between people has to, to me, meet the standard of mutual consent, equality, honesty, not violating agreements with anyone else, etc etc.". He responded by politely smiling and saying nothing.

 

[Diederick]

Hi Friends, At 1 corinthians 6:9-11 It teaches that fornicators, adulterers, men who lie with men ( obviously means female with female also. etc-- Will not enter into Gods kingdom ( eternal life is in Gods kingdom ) At # 11 it says-- That these things are what some of you were ( past tense ) So the ones the bible writer were speaking to here- repented and put those things in the past ( totally stopped doing those things= repentence, not just saying i am sorry and then doing it again and saying i am sorry- because the actions prove that you truly are not sorry. The righteous will posess the earth and reside forever upon it. Live to be righteous now. That is what Jesus wants from us.

There is no certainty that the Bible is the "word of God", let alone the fact that the probability that your god exists compared to everything else (including other gods) is very small to non-existent.

Homosexuality is unchangeable, it is harmless and it is quite beautiful. Ergo: no need to be bickering about what the Bible says. Jesus never mentioned it, so it can't be this big of a deal. Or do you also refuse to eat shellfish?

 

[ladyace]

i think god will love you no matter what and god made you the way he wanted you too and i dont think you have to repent if you are gay that is me repenting for thinking a girl is gorgous even though i am straight

 

[smitten508]

Repentance is for those that are convicted of wrong doing... I am Catholic AND gay, the man I have been with for 3 years is my husband. I have taken him before Almighty God and sworn myself to him for life. Jesus never condemns homosexuality, nor does God in the 10 commandments. The mosaic law was written for Hebrew men, BY Hebrew men!!! It was a cultural law and some of the apostles followed that law... But had it been SO wrong, I'm quite sure Christ Jesus would have brought it up considering the Romans were fairly ambiguous sexually. And I think there would be a couple extra commandments as well. But you can't discuss with some people what they have drilled into them as "wrong". Just love your neighbor as yourself and let God deal with them when the time comes... And trust, the time WILL come!

 

[Diederick]

Repentance is for those that are convicted of wrong doing... I am Catholic AND gay, the man I have been with for 3 years is my husband. I have taken him before Almighty God and sworn myself to him for life. Jesus never condemns homosexuality, nor does God in the 10 commandments. The mosaic law was written for Hebrew men, BY Hebrew men!!! It was a cultural law and some of the apostles followed that law... But had it been SO wrong, I'm quite sure Christ Jesus would have brought it up considering the Romans were fairly ambiguous sexually. And I think there would be a couple extra commandments as well. But you can't discuss with some people what they have drilled into them as "wrong". Just love your neighbor as yourself and let God deal with them when the time comes... And trust, the time WILL come!

Not that I disagree with your feelings, I actually support your position (or the above at least). But Jesus didn't condemn having sex with children either.

Of course paedophilia is wrong when it victimizes children, and of course it would be the sin and not the sinner that is wrong (a paedophile probably can't help it). But do you see the similarity?

 

[RomCat]

"Go forth and sin no more."
Jesus

 

[smitten508]

Not that I disagree with your feelings, I actually support your position (or the above at least). But Jesus didn't condemn having sex with children either.

Of course paedophilia is wrong when it victimizes children, and of course it would be the sin and not the sinner that is wrong (a paedophile probably can't help it). But do you see the similarity?

The similarity ends at victimization. When my lover and I come together in love and unity, we are both adult men who have taken one another as husbands. We have both reached the age of accountability and neither of us is being used or abused. When an adult violates a child, we sin because we have taken innocence, and abused a person's will. That is a HUGE difference. By the social norms a 16 or 17 year old is a child, we should respect such legal boundaries, however I wouldn't actually consider it sin per se at a sexual level since by that age one is perfectly capable of making a choice.

 

[ayani]

you really can't compare sexually abusing children with a consentual relationship between two men or two women.

on the other hand, even within the Gospel narratives, we see Jesus quoting Genesis, reiterating that a man shall leave his family and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. elsewhere in Genesis we read that God has created us male and female, to be joined to one another, compliment one another, and help one another within a God-blessed union, i.e. marriage.

i don't argue for a minute that being gay is "a choice". i know that the feelings, identity, desire, and attraction are all real, and all a part of who that man or woman is. but i would not say that one's gay identity is a truly innate or God-given part of who that person is. it's there, but that doesn't mean it's meant to be there, or who God has planned for us to be.

a few years ago i would have read the above and balked and stormed out of the room in a huff. i can only say that the Holy Spirit can and will convict a person of Biblical truths they've denied or rolled their eyes at their entire lives. this coming from someone who used to picket for gay marriage and saw nothing wrong with being gay, dating other women, hoping to find a life partner in a lovable and suitable woman, or checking out girls.

still, God has created us male and female, and intends for us to live as such. He's blessed sex as a heterosexual expression of boundedness and love, and intends it for the marital relationship. yes, there are intersex folks. and they fit into God's plan, too. but being gay, having romantic or sexual relationships with other men or women; and being a Christ-follower are not reconcilable. some things really do have to be renounced or denied for His sake, and that's one of them. it's something i've done, not on my own or through the help of some ministry or coaching, but with God's help, and very suddenly.

i still check out women, the tempation is still there. but i'm convicted now by the Holy Spirit that it's wrong, not where God wants me to be, and not where my attention or interest should lie.

no, being gay, bisexual, or a lesbian isn't a choice. but it's not something God will accept, or turn a blind eye to. to really follow Christ can mean to sacrifice a lot for His Kingdom. and what God values and what the world values are often very much at odds. if we ask His help, He has promised us to help, and to support us, and give us wisdom. regarless of what a person may *think* Jesus is saying or emaning, Jesus never reverses His Father's order for men and women set forth in Genesis, nor does He take a light stance on sexual sin, or any sin. He is sympathetic as God made man to our tempations and troubles, but He asks us to renounce many things if we really want to follow Him, and enter His kingdom.

 

[Diederick]

The similarity ends at victimization. When my lover and I come together in love and unity, we are both adult men who have taken one another as husbands. We have both reached the age of accountability and neither of us is being used or abused. When an adult violates a child, we sin because we have taken innocence, and abused a person's will. That is a HUGE difference. By the social norms a 16 or 17 year old is a child, we should respect such legal boundaries, however I wouldn't actually consider it sin per se at a sexual level since by that age one is perfectly capable of making a choice.

You're missing my point. If homosexuality can't be this important because Jesus didn't mention it; as you put it; then, how do you explain him not mentioning paedophilia either? While we find paedophilia an offense (when put in practice) and homosexuality not so? (I bet a few decades ago it was the other way around...)

@ ayani, I agree that the Bible says what it says; for the rest I am glad I can turn my back without a second thought, at the depressing idea that God would want me to deny myself my most natural desires - and their fulfilment. It's those very desires that relieved me from the burden of religion, it was the last drop which flooded the bucket of doubt.

 

[ladyace]

i would just say that god has chosen this life for u and this is where u feel that u belong and that you are not liven in sin bc god wouldnt of made you fall for the same sex if that isnt what he wanted you too he would of made u straight

 

[smitten508]

the bible i believe is against gays:
[22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
[23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
[24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
[25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
[26] For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
[27] And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. (romans ch. v.22-27

If you bother to read this scripture in context, it refers to the idolatry of the Romans of the time. It was customary for men AND women to have sex with members of the same sex as a RELIGIOUS CEREMONY, not a lifestyle... In that context, homosexual behavior is probably wrong, but as a gay man, I most certainly am NOT going against the natural affections of my body and lying with men. I am following the very natural affection of my body. Please don't list a few verses out of context to prove a sentiment that is not a nt tenant.

 

[smitten508]

You're missing my point. If homosexuality can't be this important because Jesus didn't mention it; as you put it; then, how do you explain him not mentioning paedophilia either? While we find paedophilia an offense (when put in practice) and homosexuality not so? (I bet a few decades ago it was the other way around...)

@ ayani, I agree that the Bible says what it says; for the rest I am glad I can turn my back without a second thought, at the depressing idea that God would want me to deny myself my most natural desires - and their fulfilment. It's those very desires that relieved me from the burden of religion, it was the last drop which flooded the bucket of doubt.

No, I'm not missing the point.lol. Jesus taught to love your neighbor as yourself, that alone dictates to a Christian that rape, and the molesting of children is wrong. Christ said to love God and love neighbor were the whole of the law and prophets... That contains the inclusion of all things that ARE sins. Child abuse of a sexual nature is certainly included in not following what he taught. Being homosexual is not included as inherently evil or sinful by christs statement.

 

[smitten508]

you really can't compare sexually abusing children with a consentual relationship between two men or two women.

on the other hand, even within the Gospel narratives, we see Jesus quoting Genesis, reiterating that a man shall leave his family and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. elsewhere in Genesis we read that God has created us male and female, to be joined to one another, compliment one another, and help one another within a God-blessed union, i.e. marriage.

i don't argue for a minute that being gay is "a choice". i know that the feelings, identity, desire, and attraction are all real, and all a part of who that man or woman is. but i would not say that one's gay identity is a truly innate or God-given part of who that person is. it's there, but that doesn't mean it's meant to be there, or who God has planned for us to be.

a few years ago i would have read the above and balked and stormed out of the room in a huff. i can only say that the Holy Spirit can and will convict a person of Biblical truths they've denied or rolled their eyes at their entire lives. this coming from someone who used to picket for gay marriage and saw nothing wrong with being gay, dating other women, hoping to find a life partner in a lovable and suitable woman, or checking out girls.

still, God has created us male and female, and intends for us to live as such. He's blessed sex as a heterosexual expression of boundedness and love, and intends it for the marital relationship. yes, there are intersex folks. and they fit into God's plan, too. but being gay, having romantic or sexual relationships with other men or women; and being a Christ-follower are not reconcilable. some things really do have to be renounced or denied for His sake, and that's one of them. it's something i've done, not on my own or through the help of some ministry or coaching, but with God's help, and very suddenly.

i still check out women, the tempation is still there. but i'm convicted now by the Holy Spirit that it's wrong, not where God wants me to be, and not where my attention or interest should lie.

no, being gay, bisexual, or a lesbian isn't a choice. but it's not something God will accept, or turn a blind eye to. to really follow Christ can mean to sacrifice a lot for His Kingdom. and what God values and what the world values are often very much at odds. if we ask His help, He has promised us to help, and to support us, and give us wisdom. regarless of what a person may *think* Jesus is saying or emaning, Jesus never reverses His Father's order for men and women set forth in Genesis, nor does He take a light stance on sexual sin, or any sin. He is sympathetic as God made man to our tempations and troubles, but He asks us to renounce many things if we really want to follow Him, and enter His kingdom.

While you say that Jesus would never contradict His Father, which is true... Where does God explicitly say that homosexuality is wrong? Please don't give me levitical or mosaic law, that wasn't God. But with regard to Jesus dismissing mosaic and levitical law, he does denounce divorce and it seems He is also denouncing polygomy. But the verses I'm fairly certain you are speaking about was His statement concerning divorce, not sexuality in general.