A Gay Christian?

[astarath]

Yes! Tell them this and if they hassle you remind them that they themselves are of a "chosen" lifestyle and they frequently commit sins in God's eyes. God does not place degrees of judgement on sin (one being worse than another) but rather sees all sin as equal. We are to all gather and spread Christ's love and to denounce a fellow christian merely because they are homosexual is wrong and not the attitude of Christ at all.

 

[kiwimac]

Of course one can be Gay and Christian! Tell 'em it proudly, don't let them grind you down, friend!

 

[robtex]

In regards to the OP I spent about 18 months listening to two different Christians try to justify their sexual identity and choice of religion. I remember having to resist the urge mutliple times to ask them to "pick a different God go follow" and both of them talked about how important to them it was for the sake of cultural identity and socialization to be a Christian (as opposed to a pagan or UU for instance).

The end result for both of them was that they had to accept that a large and signifigant percentage of those of their own faith would open reject them for the rest of their lives. The final analysis was that open rejection was the price tag associated with choosing the religion most identified with their community and heritage (one was hispanic catholic).

I helped both of them with letter writing campaigns emails and whatnot to their local churches and they both knew I am an atheist. The more interesting position taken by the anti-homosexual christians was this idea:

p1: sin is a trangression against the will of God
p2: homosexuality is a trangression against God
c1: therefore homosexuality is a sin

coupled with:

p1: Free will exists to give man the choice to sin or not sin against God
p2: homosexuality is a choice
c1: therefore if homosexuality is practiced (in thought or action) one has chosen of their own free will to sin against God

p1: God forgives those who sin but accept him as a savior. While the sinner will be saved when sinning but the sin is unpleasing to God
p2: It does not please God when christians accept non-christian (sinning) behavior
p3: christians should aim to please God whenever possible
c1: therefore God will save the homosexual for accpeting Jesus but christians must not accept this behavior.

From my time playing this game (which again was off and on 18 months) the paradigms of premise conclusion seem pretty accurate. Do they seem accurate to the christians of RF and if they are true to you why?

 

[Mike182]

oxymoron: A figure of speech consisting of that form of antithesis in which, for emphasis or in an epigram, contradictory terms are brought sharply together.

but the terms "gay" and "christian" were not contradictory terms to begin with, so how can it be an oxymoron?

 

[Booko]

Is there a polite way to inform fundamentalist or evangilical christians that as a gay man you believe God accepts you as you are and you have no need to repent?

Like anything else, you can say what you say, and they can accept it or not. Actually, I think the above statement of your belief is plenty polite.

How do you combat the concept that you are living a 'chosen' lifestyle?

Um...you hope they end up with a gay relative or friend who will convince them otherwise? Seriously, if someone is going to insist that you "chose" to be gay they're either going to get it that it's not true, or they're not going to get it. Or the other possibility is, when they hear it from enough people, they'll finally get it.

If you push, they'll just dig in their heels.

As for a "lifestyle" I suggest you think about discussing "the gay lifestyle" with Green Gaia. She makes the point very well. :yes:

 

[Booko]

I don't think he knows what an oxymoron is.

There's a big oxymoron hole in the atmosphere over the Antactic.

 

[opensoul7]

No.
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]"God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference."
[/FONT]
you cannot change another persons deep rooted belief , only they can .

 

[lizskid]

I guess if you are expecting to find the "right" words to transform one's belief, then there probably isn't a way. If you want to give them the experience of knowing that someone can be gay and lead a Christian life, then, live your life and let them see. Really, there is often no "watershed" moment when a homophobe, or even a person who just happens to interpret the Bible differently than you do, changes an attitude or belief, it usually comes over time, if at all. You cannot let another's beliefs deter your own, just love them for the imperfect humans they are, we all are, and let it rest.

 

[gnomon]

Talk about an oxymoron.

Interesting statement.

If the term gay christian is an oxymoron than this means that a gay person cannot be a christian. Why? It must be because homosexuality (or, actual the act of homosexual sex but the declared oxymoron very clearly implies the person, not the act) is a sin in the eyes of God. Therefore, a gay christian is an oxymoron because since homosexuality is a sin a gay person cannot be a christian. It is the sin.

Yet, we are all sinners. If we are all sinners then how can anyone be a Christian?

 

[astarath]

Interesting statement.

If the term gay christian is an oxymoron than this means that a gay person cannot be a christian. Why? It must be because homosexuality (or, actual the act of homosexual sex but the declared oxymoron very clearly implies the person, not the act) is a sin in the eyes of God. Therefore, a gay christian is an oxymoron because since homosexuality is a sin a gay person cannot be a christian. It is the sin.

Yet, we are all sinners. If we are all sinners then how can anyone be a Christian?

Bingo! Gnomon gets some frubals that is how it goes. We all at some point are lying christians, cheating christians, adulterous christians(assuming you're christian) if anything the homosexuals that come forth as homosexual christians should be applauded. They at least have the honesty and courage to come forth and acknowledge their sin whereas some of the rest seem to prefer to point their fingers at them and say look they are sinners and are wrong,

 

[James the Persian]

I must admit I'm ignorant on whether Christianity (or only some denominations) believe animals were affected by the fall as well; were they?

Traditional Christian teaching is that all of creation is afected by the Fall. Whether some denominations disagree, I couldn't say, but some of the worst fundies will talk of an almost docetistic attitude (that the material world is evil) as a result. We don't share this attitude, believeing all that God made is still fundamentally good, but we certainly see he Fall and the Incarnation as affecting all of creation, not just us.

If not, one can easily show the 400+ species that homosexual behavior has been observed in (including the ones where it's not merely a dominance display) to answer that.

Well, as you can see, that doesn't really apply, does it? Even if it did, though, it would be invalid to argue morality based on what is natural for lower species. If it were not, after all, I'd have no problem whatsoever justifying many other actions we deem immoral, would I? Incest, infanticide, cannibalism, rape - the list seems endless really.

James

 

[kiwimac]

Except Incest, infanticide, Cannibalism and Rape are crimes, homosexuality is not.

 

[James the Persian]

Except Incest, infanticide, Cannibalism and Rape are crimes, homosexuality is not.

Oh, please don't tell me that you are going to attempt to argue morality from legality? Whose legal code should we use? Homosexual sex acts (and it was acts we were carefully discussing not orientation) are illegal in more than one country.

I can envisage quite easily moral acts being illegal and immoral acts being legal. In fact I know of legal codes that contain(ed) both. Sin is closest to morality in terms of what non-Christians will accept and hence it's clear that your 'but they're crime's' retort is irrelevant and intellectually indefensible. My point stands. If the existance of homosexual sex acts in non-human species is taken as evidence of the morality of those acts for humans then intellectual consistency requires accepting the other acts as moral also. Legality is a completely separate issue and your raising it is a red herring.

James

 

[Mike182]

Except Incest, infanticide, Cannibalism and Rape are crimes, homosexuality is not.

maybe you would have been better to use the word victim instead of crime, but what counts as a victim is to an extent a subjective assessment... good luck with either of those lines of argument

 

[Callmepaul]

Wheew ... I lost the url to this forum and only recently found my way back. My questions seems to have stirred up a hornets nest (as I knew it would, chuckle). Thanks to all you responders. :clap

And let me add that I have come from a religious forum where one evangelical refers to me as 'Paul Sodomite' even though I explained to him that not all gay people engage in this particular sexual behaviour; I do not. So, if we take away the sodomy, where then do the mainstream Christians still get their Biblical fodder for hatred? Can they say it is man lying with man? I think the term 'lying' relates to intercourse. What do you folks think?

 

[Quagmire]

Welcome to the forums Paul (or welcome back)

I wouldn't be too bothered by these homophobia-er than thou religious folks you're talking about, and i wouldn't take it personally. Their attitude's really just the result of a slight mistranslation of scripture;

According to the gospel Jesus said to "pray in your closet", and some of these guys think he said "stay in your closet", which is what many of them are doing (you'd be surprised to find out how many).

They probably just envy your freedom.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Wheew ... I lost the url to this forum and only recently found my way back. My questions seems to have stirred up a hornets nest

You think that this is a hornet's nest?

You don't get out much! :biglaugh:

The RF moderators have cleaned up all those nasty nests! :run:

 

[Draka]

Well, as you can see, that doesn't really apply, does it? Even if it did, though, it would be invalid to argue morality based on what is natural for lower species. If it were not, after all, I'd have no problem whatsoever justifying many other actions we deem immoral, would I? Incest, infanticide, cannibalism, rape - the list seems endless really.

James

Except Incest, infanticide, Cannibalism and Rape are crimes, homosexuality is not.

Oh, please don't tell me that you are going to attempt to argue morality from legality? Whose legal code should we use? Homosexual sex acts (and it was acts we were carefully discussing not orientation) are illegal in more than one country.

I can envisage quite easily moral acts being illegal and immoral acts being legal. In fact I know of legal codes that contain(ed) both. Sin is closest to morality in terms of what non-Christians will accept and hence it's clear that your 'but they're crime's' retort is irrelevant and intellectually indefensible. My point stands. If the existance of homosexual sex acts in non-human species is taken as evidence of the morality of those acts for humans then intellectual consistency requires accepting the other acts as moral also. Legality is a completely separate issue and your raising it is a red herring.

James

Those things are illegal and homosexuality is not for one main reason and it is not based in any religious morality. Those are crimes because they have VICTIMS and homosexuality does not. You can say that those things are immoral and you would be right, and they are also crimes. However, no matter how one may personally feel about homosexuality, there is no crime or victim there.

See, it's this type of thing I just have never understood. Why on Earth some people think that they have any right to say anything about someone else's private life if it has absolutely no effect on them personally is completely beyond me. This goes for many things and I'm sure that people here that know my stance on other issues can imagine the other topics I'm thinking about. Who someone loves and how they love them, as long as we are talking consenting and informed adults, is no one's business but theirs.

 

[Callmepaul]

According to the gospel Jesus said to "pray in your closet", and some of these guys think he said "stay in your closet"

Oh my gosh ... that was funny!

 

[Reverend Rick]

I think the issue is acting on a sexual attraction. I am sure many men are attracted to teenage girls. This does not mean that they try to have sex with them.

I truly believe that homosexuality is not a choice. We cannot control what we are attracted to.