A Gnostic account of the world (in brief)

[Link]

I'm telling you what I would do if I got that power. If I can overcome all the demiurge forces and free myself, I'm coming at them with full force and would free all humans. But what you describe is impossible. They keep us in place by power, how can we over power them, we cannot. They control our minds, our thoughts, etc, so they will not let us find a way to defeat them.

Attachment or no attachment, it does not matter. We aren't escaping this scenario they design the system and keep our power from becoming greater then theirs.

 

[Goldemar]

Sorry, you are repeating. But you say mechanism we stay stuck to this world, is, attachment. So lets say you do not have attachment. How do you escape their control once having no attachment. If light forces can't free us now, and they are not attached, how will I gain that power to free myself from the demiurge if not attached? Seems the dark forces can over power me attached or not attached.

Once your current material (physical) body dies, if you are still free from attachment to it and the material world, your soul will be free from Ptahil's clutches to journey on to the Lightworld. Having learnt how to stay out of his clutches, he will no longer be able to trap you again in his world.

 

[Link]

Once your current material (physical) body dies, if you are still free from attachment to it and the material world, your soul will be free from Ptahil's clutches to journey on to the Lightworld. Having learnt how to stay out of his clutches, he will no longer be able to trap you again in his world.

How will it escape it at death? What mechanism, if they wish to keep me? If I can overpower them then, be sure, I'm coming back for them and will be fighting them given that I have more power then them at that point.

 

[Goldemar]

How? If the light forces cannot free from me the dark forces because dark forces are equal power, how will detachment give me that much power? Can you explain the mechanism?

I can't give you a more specific mechanism than that. Freedom from attachment really is that powerful.

 

[Link]

I can't give you a more specific mechanism than that. Freedom from attachment really is that powerful.

Sure, I agree. Which is why I believe, Angels that are not attached to darkness regulate things per command of God and the Ahlulbayt (a) (who act according to God's will).

Non-attachment to lower and attachment to God is powerful, while attachment to lower and evil is not, hence the world is regulated by Angels, not dark forces.

Angels who would be overwhelmingly more powerful then dark forces, because latter are attached to selfish things.

And if we can escape, would in time come back way more powerful, and can overwhelm evil forces from controlling this world.

In short, the world is created and regulated by powerful forces and light forces are the more powerful and their power is unmatched by dark forces, no matter how many.

In fact, Quran says 19 Angels can keep all Devils of Jinn in there and humans. The forces of God are way more powerful, since good is powerful, and evil is weakness.

Good is a type of power itself, while evil is a type of weakness.

 

[Goldemar]

How will it escape it at death? What mechanism, if they wish to keep me? If I can overpower them then, be sure, I'm coming back for them and will be fighting them given that I have more power then them at that point.

Each soul must learn to set itself free, no other soul can give that knowledge to it, though the salvific beings can guide souls, they must ultimately open their hearts to that guidance and learn and practice what it means to be free from attachment to the material world and its things.

 

[Link]

Each soul must learn to set itself free, no other soul can give that knowledge to it, though the salvific beings can guide souls, they must ultimately open their hearts to that guidance and learn and practice what it means to be free from attachment to the material world and its things.

If I can free myself I would come back at dark forces with vengeance since now I would be more powerful then them.

 

[Goldemar]

If I can free myself I would come back at dark forces with vengeance since now I would be more powerful then them.

More powerful in what way, and what do you think you would be able to do to the Dark forces?

 

[Link]

More powerful in what way, and what do you think you would be able to do to the Dark forces?

Shred them if I can overpower them all and free myself, why not? I would not be selfish to be just happy I am freed so would come back with a vengeance.

 

[blü 2]

In my belief system, there is a Great God in a Lightworld (which you can think of as Heaven) and a separate being (Krun) who rules over a separate Darkworld.

The Great God created countless immortal Angels and countless immortal souls/spirits, including human souls/spirits. One of the Angels (Ptahil) created the evil, lower material world against the Great God's Wishes, with the assistance of one of the Darkworld's Demonic inhabitants, Ruha, using material from the Darkworld as a prison for human souls/spirits. Ptahil traps human souls/spirits in his material world and it is for us to learn to free ourselves from attachment to this world over successive lifetimes so that we can return to the Lightworld. We are aided in this by various salvific beings.

Any responses to this account, which is just one very brief Gnostic account of the world, amongst many others out there?

Happy to expand on any point.

You'll have noticed, of course, that the Jesus of Paul and the Jesus of John (unlike the Jesuses of Mark, Matthew or Luke) created the material universe (I Corinthians 8:6, John 1:2-3) and that for Paul and John God is an even more remote figure than in the synoptics, so that it's not only necessary to have Jesus on your side as an advocate when you stand before God, but you can't make any contact at all with God EXCEPT through Jesus as intermediary (eg John 17). That's to say, for Paul and for the author of John, Jesus was the gnostic demiurge, and who cares what Genesis says?

 

[Goldemar]

Shred them if I can overpower them all and free myself, why not? I would not be selfish to be just happy I am freed so would come back with a vengeance.

What makes you think that you could overpower them, though, just by virtue of being free from attachment to the material world?

 

[Goldemar]

You'll have noticed, of course, that the Jesus of Paul and the Jesus of John (unlike the Jesuses of Mark, Matthew or Luke) created the material universe (I Corinthians 8:6, John 1:2-3) and that for Paul and John God is an even more remote figure than in the synoptics, so that it's not only necessary to have Jesus on your side as an advocate when you stand before God, but you can't make any contact at all with God EXCEPT through Jesus as intermediary (eg John 17). That's to say, for Paul and for the author of John, Jesus was the gnostic demiurge, and who cares what Genesis says?

As a Gnostic with both Cainite and Mandaean influences, I reject Jesus as a false Prophet who had no real power, but I take your point.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

In my belief system, there is a Great God in a Lightworld (which you can think of as Heaven) and a separate being (Krun) who rules over a separate Darkworld.

The Great God created countless immortal Angels and countless immortal souls/spirits, including human souls/spirits. One of the Angels (Ptahil) created the evil, lower material world against the Great God's Wishes, with the assistance of one of the Darkworld's Demonic inhabitants, Ruha, using material from the Darkworld as a prison for human souls/spirits. Ptahil traps human souls/spirits in his material world and it is for us to learn to free ourselves from attachment to this world over successive lifetimes so that we can return to the Lightworld. We are aided in this by various salvific beings.

Any responses to this account, which is just one very brief Gnostic account of the world, amongst many others out there?

Happy to expand on any point.

I believe that if you don't water your plants, they'll eventually die. I also believe that if you walk off the edge of a cliff, you will fall downwards, possibly to very painful or even fatal result.

What's more, I can give you a whole lot of reasons, a tremendous amoung of evidence, for why I believe these things -- and even further, I can't find any evidence from anyone anywhere that suggests that these things don't happen.

SO! What convinces you of your beliefs? What evidence do you use? What experience comports with your claims? Who supports you? Where are your sources? Who else talks about Ptahil and Ruha?

If you are "happy to expand on any point," those points are the ones I'd like you to expand on. If you'd care to address what you are smoking or ingesting, I'm sure that would be interesting too.

 

[Goldemar]

I believe that if you don't water your plants, they'll eventually die. I also believe that if you walk off the edge of a cliff, you will fall downwards, possibly to very painful or even fatal result.

What's more, I can give you a whole lot of reasons, a tremendous amoung of evidence, for why I believe these things -- and even further, I can't find any evidence from anyone anywhere that suggests that these things don't happen.

SO! What convinces you of your beliefs? What evidence do you use? What experience comports with your claims? Who supports you? Where are your sources? Who else talks about Ptahil and Ruha?

If you are "happy to expand on any point," those points are the ones I'd like you to expand on. If you'd care to address what you are smoking or ingesting, I'm sure that would be interesting too.

So I'm not completely alone in having these beliefs - the Mandaeans, whose religion is Mandaeism, a Gnostic religion with an estimated 60k-100k adherents today, also talk of Ptahil and Ruha in a broadly similar fashion (though my account is simpler). Wikipedia is an okay place to start if you want to learn more about Mandaeism and its sources.

Why do I believe what I do? Because it makes intuitive sense to me.

 

[Link]

What makes you think that you could overpower them, though, just by virtue of being free from attachment to the material world?

how else would I have gotten free due to non-attachment but learn the secret of power that comes with that so that they can't stop me and put me back in a body? None attachment would lead to some super power on death right? Enough to escape the forces making this world, but if I get such powers, I'm coming back with it amplified and with a vengeance towards them.

There is also the well known saying "only he wants injustice who is weak". The demiurge is not weak, so why does he want injustice to creatures?

 

[firedragon]

Yeah but that's what I am saying. Like this is pure speculative theology, and you either reject it with respect to your own belief in scriptural authority or you don't.

It's just a question about the source. Some times there are sources like a book which one may believe is revelation, and sometimes there are none. I was about to ask the same question but I noticed @Link has already asked the same question.

But you are saying it's speculative theology. Is it just speculative @Goldemar ?

 

[Goldemar]

how else would I have gotten free due to non-attachment but learn the secret of power that comes with that so that they can't stop me and put me back in a body? None attachment would lead to some super power on death right? Enough to escape the forces making this world, but if I get such powers, I'm coming back with it amplified and with a vengeance towards them.

There is also the well known saying "only he wants injustice who is weak". The demiurge is not weak, so why does he want injustice to creatures?

I'm not sure what you mean by coming back 'amplified'.

The Demiurge is arrogant and wanted to create a world essentially populated by beings subject to and worshipping him. And he is weaker than God, which is why he needs the assistance of Ruha from the Darkworld to bring his plan to fruition.

 

[Goldemar]

It's just a question about the source. Some times there are sources like a book which one may believe is revelation, and sometimes there are none. I was about to ask the same question but I noticed @Link has already asked the same question.

But you are saying it's speculative theology. Is it just speculative @Goldemar ?

I draw from Mandaean holy texts which can be considered revelation to the greatest of the Mandaean Prophets, Yuhana Masbana (John the Baptist, Yahya ibn Zakariya), but I go beyond them to develop my own ideas.

 

[firedragon]

I draw from Mandaean holy texts which can be considered revelation to the greatest of the Mandaean Prophets, Yuhana Masbana (John the Baptist, Yahya ibn Zakariya), but I go beyond them to develop my own ideas.

Thanks so much for the clarification. In fact, I have not done any study of your theological scripture. I have read a synopsis in a dictionary which means my knowledge is very limited. I understand that one book at least is ancient.

Interesting mate. Thanks a lot.

 

[Link]

I'm not sure what you mean by coming back 'amplified'.

The Demiurge is arrogant and wanted to create a world essentially populated by beings subject to and worshipping him. And he is weaker than God, which is why he needs the assistance of Ruha from the Darkworld to bring his plan to fruition.

It means whatever strength I gain to free myself, I will increase myself in it by a lot, and come back with a vengeance. The point is, this dualistic even power thing of good and evil does not make sense where we escape with enough power to overcome them, yet can't over take them later? Makes no sense.