A God Problem

[Jos]

The religion at the narrow gate is the religion God wants us to find and follow, and it is the gate that leads to eternal life. But it is not that easy for most people to find this gate because most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe. If they do not have a religion, most people are suspicious of the new religion and the new Messenger. If they are atheists they do not like the idea of Messengers of God or they think they are all phonies. If they are irreligious they have become fatigued by the already established religions and thus just find it more annoying that a new one has popped up.

It is difficult to get through the narrow gate because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not normally embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow the broad road that is easiest for them to travel.

OK, so will anything bad happen to nonbelievers?

God is Spirit. How can a Spirit come down and talk to humans in a way that we could perceive and understand Him?

So why create us as material beings if He knew it would create a communication barrier?

This was not God speaking; this was someone speaking about God, so it is just someone’s opinion of God

How do you know that God didn't reveal that to the person?

Do you mean you think God does evil?

No.

If God did not give us free will and a choice between good and evil we would never learn what we have to learn in this life.

But who is God to judge humankind when we fail to choose good when He Himself can't even choose good or evil but automatically has to do good?

 

[ACEofALLaces]

True, what Baha'u'llah wrote has been verified as to its authenticity, but nobody can verify the SOURCE because the SOURCE is God and God is UNverifiable.

The veracity OF what Baha'u'llah has written is not what is being brought into question here....as much as whether or not it can actually be AUTHENTICATED as having come FROM GOD.
Which in MY opinion, it canNOT!

 

[ACEofALLaces]

I thought you were not a Bible believer.
I do not believe there was a literal Adam and Eve as portrayed in Genesis... I believe that was a metaphorical story... I do not know about Cain, I am not adept in the Bible.

God did speak to some people in the Bible through the Holy Spirit, but God is not going to speak to everyone in the world that way, because not everyone has a mind that is equipped to hear the Voice of God.

I have READ the bible, am not necessarily a "believer" in it. I only present my rebuttal from the perspective of a person who might actually BE a believer in what the bible says. OK?

Sure, the story of Adam and Eve is most likely metaphorical/allegory....however it IS that allegory which I present as a counter-proposal to YOUR notion that God CANNOT and DOES not "speak" to individuals.

 

[Trailblazer]

The veracity OF what Baha'u'llah has written is not what is being brought into question here....as much as whether or not it can actually be AUTHENTICATED as having come FROM GOD.
Which in MY opinion, it canNOT!

No scriptures can be authenticated as having come from God, since God cannot be authenticated. Sorry.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have READ the bible, am not necessarily a "believer" in it. I only present my rebuttal from the perspective of a person who might actually BE a believer in what the bible says. OK?

Okay.

Sure, the story of Adam and Eve is most likely metaphorical/allegory....however it IS that allegory which I present as a counter-proposal to YOUR notion that God CANNOT and DOES not "speak" to individuals.

God can and does speak to certain individuals through the Holy Spirit, but that does not mean God is going to speak to every individual on earth that way, as there is no reason God would need to and because only certain individuals could ever understand the Voice of God. It is as simple as that. God chooses who He will communicate to because God knows who can understand Him and who he wants to carry His Word to the rest of humanity.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

God can and does speak to certain individuals through the Holy Spirit, but that does not mean God is going to speak to every individual on earth that way, as there is no reason God would need to and because only certain individuals could ever understand the Voice of God. It is as simple as that. God chooses who He will communicate to because God knows who can understand Him and who he wants to carry His Word to the rest of humanity.

But, but, but.....what if God has a message SOLELY for me and no one else? Are you telling me that this can-do-anything-God, CANNOT simply whisper sweet nothings in MY ear, in such a way that I WOULD understand what God said?

 

[Trailblazer]

But, but, but.....what if God has a message SOLELY for me and no one else? Are you telling me that this can-do-anything-God, CANNOT simply whisper sweet nothings in MY ear, in such a way that I WOULD understand what God said?

God can communicate to anyone. We can BELIEVE that communication came from God, but there is no way we can VERIFY that communication CAME from God.

That has happened to me a lot. I explained to Pawz on my forum how that happened to me about a week ago, when I was having trouble with my laptop. I cried out to God for help, actually I got really mad at God, and not more than a few minutes later a thought came into my head what I was supposed to do. I went on Craigslist and found another laptop. I am typing on it right now, what an improvement. But I still have the other laptop and I think a new power cord I ordered last night will fix the problem and then my husband will be coming on this forum since he will have his own computer.

The point is that God can communicate to our minds if we are OPEN to His communication. But if we block it with our own will and try to control everything, God cannot get through, because God never forces His Will on us.

However, God is not going to communicate an entire revelation to anyone except a Manifestation of God (Messenger) because He can and does know for sure it is from God and He is especially equipped to receive ALL that information, write it down in a way that everyone on earth can understand.

 

[night912]

By reading about Baha’u’llah, His life and mission, and by reading His Writings.

You still haven't shown "how" you know that it's true.

I do not have my own God in the sense that I own God. God is everyone’s God.

I never said anything about you owning god. You're dodging it by misleading the idea of "your god." "Your god" doesn't have to mean that you own god.
EX: your ethnic background, your country, your age, etc

The evidence that there is only one God, and it is the God represented in the scriptures of the Abrahamic religions, are those scriptures. You can say that is circular if you want to, but still, that is the evidence God provided so that is the only real evidence.

Yes, it's circular reasoning, it's not a valid and sound argument. That's why your argument fails.

The Messengers and the scriptures they revealed are the evidence. Their claim to be Messengers is not the evidence because that would be circular. Anyone can make a claim, but proof is necessary to back up that claim. One thus has to look at the Messengers and determine if their claims are valid claims. That requires looking at their lives, their mission, what they wrote or what was written by others on their behalf, and how their coming impacted civilization as well as the religions that were established in their names.

No, those are claims. You're claiming that they are "messengers of god."

Because I have no reason to believe God betrays anyone and good reason to believe that God never does. That is written in scriptures, which is the only reliable Source of information about God. Without them, people can imagine all kinds of things about God.

I have good reason to believe that people betray people because I have been betrayed and I have seen others betrayed.

That's an assertion with no evidence to support it.

Why is it a fallacy from ignorance? Unless you have evidence that God thrives on human suffering that is based upon ignorance. There is no such evidence, so it is simply human conjecture based upon things some people attribute to God which are not attributable to God, since there is NO WAY to know what God is doing at any time.

It's a fallacy from ignorance because Your argument is, "you don't know, therefore it's not true." Just because you don't know something, doesn't automatically make it false. That's a fallacy from ignorance .

By the way, an argument from ignorance is not the same as being ignorant. You're confusing those two.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

God can communicate to anyone. We can BELIEVE that communication came from God, but there is no way we can VERIFY that communication CAME from God.

The same as how your alleged 'messenger' claimed to have heard from God.....no way to VERIFY IT actually came FROM God.

That has happened to me a lot. I explained to Pawz on my forum how that happened to me about a week ago, when I was having trouble with my laptop. I cried out to God for help, actually I got really mad at God, and not more than a few minutes later a thought came into my head what I was supposed to do. I went on Craigslist and found another laptop.

Ahhhh yes, anecdotal evidence....works every time huh?

The point is that God can communicate to our minds if we are OPEN to His communication. But if we block it with our own will and try to control everything, God cannot get through, because God never forces His Will on us.

All those contingencies.....ends up really restricting what God COULD do, doesn't it?

However, God is not going to communicate an entire revelation to anyone except a Manifestation of God (Messenger) because He can

Oh of course not....and put all those alleged 'messengers' out of a job? God COULD, but God WON'T.....

He (the alleged messenger) is especially equipped to receive ALL that information, write it down in a way that everyone on earth can understand.

I've read that song and dance routine of your many times already, and it is STILL out of 'tune' with reality.

Your notion of what an alleged 'messenger' is good for, is no different really than what has been claimed since the dawn of human civilization and those who came down from the trees asking the same questions we are still asking today.

The only difference is YOU seem to feel that YOU have all the answers. Well, maybe not you, but at least your alleged 'messenger' does.......because he SAID so....yeah, I know, you have evidence. I've read it already. Am NOT impressed with it.

 

[Trailblazer]

The same as how your alleged 'messenger' claimed to have heard from God.....no way to VERIFY IT actually came FROM God.

I never told you there was, but some of us just know.

Ahhhh yes, anecdotal evidence....works every time huh?

No, it doesn't always work, sometimes it was just my imagination.

All those contingencies.....ends up really restricting what God COULD do, doesn't it?

What God does and does not do is restricted by God. But we can restrict what God does by shutting God out. God does not normally go whee He is unwanted.

Oh of course not....and put all those alleged 'messengers' out of a job? God COULD, but God WON'T....

And there ain't nothing YOU can do about it since you are NOT omnipotent. So I suggest getting used to the idea of Messengers and settling in for the ride.

I've read that song and dance routine of your many times already, and it is STILL out of 'tune' with reality.

Your notion of what an alleged 'messenger' is good for, is no different really than what has been claimed since the dawn of human civilization and those who came down from the trees asking the same questions we are still asking today.

The only difference is YOU seem to feel that YOU have all the answers. Well, maybe not you, but at least your alleged 'messenger' does.......because he SAID so....yeah, I know, you have evidence. I've read it already. Am NOT impressed with it.

All the Messengers of God had the answers for their time period in history. It just so happens we are in a new time period and Baha'u'llah had the answers for this age. You won't get better evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

OK, so will anything bad happen to nonbelievers?

There is no way to know; only God knows. I can only give you my opinion. I think what happens to nonbelievers will vary according to their sincerity, effort and deeds. It will depend upon why they were nonbelievers. If they sincerely tried to believe but couldn’t believe, that will be a lot different from somebody who never even tried or worse yet, somebody who hated the idea of God.

So why create us as material beings if He knew it would create a communication barrier?

There is no barrier because God knew He could communicate with a Messenger, which has worked to get messages to the rest of humanity throughout all of history.

How do you know that God didn't reveal that to the person?

I don’t know. I suppose that is possible.

But who is God to judge humankind when we fail to choose good when He Himself can't even choose good or evil but automatically has to do good?

God does not have to choose because God is fully good, so God does not have to become good by choosing good like humans have to do.

 

[Trailblazer]

You still haven't shown "how" you know that it's true.

That is not really something I can explain. I just know by looking at the Person of Baha’u’llah, His life and mission and Writings.

I never said anything about you owning god. You're dodging it by misleading the idea of "your god." "Your god" doesn't have to mean that you own god.
EX: your ethnic background, your country, your age, etc

Okay, I understand.

Yes, it's circular reasoning, it's not a valid and sound argument. That's why your argument fails.

Can you explain why? Keep in mind it could still be logically valid even if it is circular reasoning.

Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.[1] The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true.
Circular reasoning - Wikipedia

No, those are claims. You're claiming that they are "messengers of god."

No, I do not claim that they were Messengers, they claimed that. I just believed the claim.

Their lives, their mission, what they wrote or what was written by others on their behalf, and how their coming impacted civilization as well as the religions that were established in their names are not claims. They are verifiable facts.

That's an assertion with no evidence to support it.

I have plenty of evidence to support my assertion that I have been betrayed by certain people. Do you want the number of the attorney who is handling my case?

Do you have any evidence that God ever betrayed anyone?

It's a fallacy from ignorance because Your argument is, "you don't know, therefore it's not true." Just because you don't know something, doesn't automatically make it false. That's a fallacy from ignorance.

By the way, an argument from ignorance is not the same as being ignorant. You're confusing those two.

I know what the fallacy is. By the same token, just because you do not know something, that does not make it true.

Argument from ignorance asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia

Do you have sufficient information to prove that God thrives on human suffering?

 

[night912]

God can and does speak to certain individuals through the Holy Spirit, but that does not mean God is going to speak to every individual on earth that way, as there is no reason God would need to and because only certain individuals could ever understand the Voice of God. It is as simple as that. God chooses who He will communicate to because God knows who can understand Him and who he wants to carry His Word to the rest of humanity.

You're contradicting yourself. Earlier you made it clear that god cannot communicate with humans because he is of The divine, therefore humans can't understand god. Now you're saying that god is capable of communicating with humans.

 

[Trailblazer]

You're contradicting yourself. Earlier you made it clear that god cannot communicate with humans because he is of The divine, therefore humans can't understand god. Now you're saying that god is capable of communicating with humans.

I am not contradicting myself. I said that God only communicates to some humans because only some humans can understand God. God could communicate to everyone, but not everyone could understand God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am not contradicting myself. I said that God only communicates to some humans because only some humans can understand God. God could communicate to everyone, but not everyone could understand God.

If the recipient can't understand it, it isn't communication.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If the recipient can't understand it, it isn't communication.

It is the attempt at communicating that makes it communication. If the recipient doesn't understand, then it is simply failed communication.

 

[Trailblazer]

“I am not contradicting myself. I said that God only communicates to some humans because only some humans can understand God. God could communicate to everyone, but not everyone could understand God.”

If the recipient can't understand it, it isn't communication.

Excellent point, it is not communication unless the recipient understands it, and that is why God does not speak to everyone, because not everyone could understand God.

I should have said that God only speaks to some humans because only some humans can understand God. God could speak to everyone, but not everyone could understand God.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is the attempt at communicating that makes it communication. If the recipient doesn't understand, then it is simply failed communication.

That's true too.

 

[Jos]

It will depend upon why they were nonbelievers. If they sincerely tried to believe but couldn’t believe, that will be a lot different from somebody who never even tried or worse yet, somebody who hated the idea of God.

Why should a person get punished for hating God or not believing in Him when God doesn't get hurt by it and also doesn't lose nothing by them hating Him or not believing in Him?

There is no barrier because God knew He could communicate with a Messenger, which has worked to get messages to the rest of humanity throughout all of history.

I meant a direct communication barrier ie. Him not being able to speak to us directly instead of relying on messengers. Why not create us as spirit beings also?

God does not have to choose because God is fully good, so God does not have to become good by choosing good like humans have to do.

Well that's what I meant... He is automatically good and would never choose evil because it's impossible for Him to do so... it's not even an option, so again, how can He judge humans when He Himself created humans imperfect and doesn't know what it's like to have to deal with evil as an option?

I don’t know. I suppose that is possible.

Doesn't that mean that it's still possible for Christianity to be true?

 

[Trailblazer]

Why should a person get punished for hating God or not believing in Him when God doesn't get hurt by it and also doesn't lose nothing by them hating Him or not believing in Him?

I don’t think God will punish anyone. Any punishment we incur will be owing to regrets we have at the loss of not having ever known God, thus not having known our true selves. We might also have regrets over any bad deeds we had done, such as hurting other people.

I meant a direct communication barrier ie. Him not being able to speak to us directly instead of relying on messengers. Why not create us as spirit beings also?

We will be spirit beings after we die physically and our soul takes on a spiritual body. Then we will be able to be closer to God because the veil will be lifted. Meanwhile, in this earthly life we are material beings so we need a Messenger who acts as a mediator between us and God. He is a material being so we can understand Him, but since He is also a spiritual being, He can understand the Spirit of God, which is why He can mediate between God and humans.

Well that's what I meant... He is automatically good and would never choose evil because it's impossible for Him to do so... it's not even an option, so again, how can He judge humans when He Himself created humans imperfect and doesn't know what it's like to have to deal with evil as an option?

God did not create humans imperfect. Humans were created purely good but we have two natures, a higher spiritual nature that chooses good and a lower material nature that chooses evil.

Of course God knows what it is like for humans to have to deal with evil as an option. God does not need to experience that to know it. God is All-Knowing and his knowledge surrounds the realities of all things, including what is in our minds and hearts.

Doesn't that mean that it's still possible for Christianity to be true?

The early Christianity of Jesus is true; it is the Christianity of the Church that is false, because the Church got away from what Jesus taught and replaced it with false doctrines. Some of what the Church teaches is true, but some of it isn’t.