A good arguement

[Akshara Dasa]

The burden of proof is on whoever is making a positive claim. That would be theists in this case.

But, according to us, we have the proof. Its within our scripture, many are just not looking in it to see if there is anything there! I believe in reveled scripture, and if one is such a scientist as many atheist proclaim that they follow the sciences, then why dont they delve some religions and experiament with them. The proof we give is within scripture, so why dont you look at it and experiament with it and gain your own knowledge from it instead of saying, "Nope, its not real, its man made".

Edit: We rely on scripture which we beleve to come from a higher place, you rely on senses, limited senses. That is what I will not rely on to find the absolute truth!

Also, I enjoy having this nice debate with all who have perticipated!

 

[Kerr]

I have seen many atheists, both on this forum and some outside of this forum, say that theists dont have good arguements for the existence of God. So, what im asking the atheists is, can you give me a good and valid arguement? Im not doing this becuase I hate atheists or because I want to put them down, I just want to hear if you have any better arguements.

To me, a lack of evidence doesnt disprove God. For example, if Man:A kills Man:B and there isnt alot of evidence to show that Man:A did that action, that doesnt mean that he did not do it. I can see that a lack of evidence can bring you to agnosticism, but full out Atheism, what is the reason for that?

Im eager to hear all arguements and sides, thanks!

I don´t claim to know anything about the existence of God. But I have yet to see an argument that would convince me that God exists, so I don´t believe in it because, well, have just never seen or experienced anything that have made me believe there is a higher power.

I don´t know what I would consider a good argument, but I don´t think words alone can change my mind. If I am to believe in God it would require something else, something more then words, like an experience of some sort.

Would like to point out that I don´t look down on the people who would find an argument convincing that I don´t find convincing. It is in the end about who we are more then the arguments themselves. For example one of the reasons I am not a Christian is that the little I have read about the story itself doesn´t make much sense to me. I find the entire story of the fall of man to be too far fetched to be believable. To me. Which may have to do with that I have never been interested enough to actually read the Bible. Others do however think it makes sense. That is hardly because they are stupid, it is because we are different individuals.

 

[Kerr]

Im not trying to get anyone to justify anything, its your choice to post on this thread and if you feel like your having to justify anything, im sorry I didnt intend that.

But, why do you instantly cease to believe? If there is no visible evidence of God, why do you cease to believe. People say, "Oh I cant see God, so I wont believe". What happens if you go blind? Do you stop believing in the world? What if you lose all of your senses, do you stop believing there is a World? And the arguement that isnt good is, "Well if I lose my senses, then I can still remember there was a world", because how do you know that millions of years ago you werent with God, but now you have forgotten. You cant remember what you did at 2:30 yesterday, or what you ate this same day 5 weeks ago. Memory isnt reliable with this arguement.

The point is, why do you rely on your senses for that which is thought to be above senses. If you say God is almighty, why do you try to find evidence of him with your limited senses, mind, intellect, and memory? And if you say God isnt almighty, why are you even calling this entity God?

What about those of us that never believed in God to begin with? I never did, not because I can´t see him, but because I grew up in a non-religious family and never encountered anything that would make me believe in God to begin with.

 

[PolyHedral]

But, according to us, we have the proof [of God].Its within our scripture

We rely on scripture which we beleve to come from a higher place

Could you explain why this is not circular reasoning?

That is what I will not rely on to find the absolute truth!

I know the absolute truth, which all other reasoning depends upon: ~(P^~P)
Translated into English: A statement and its inverse are never both true at once. I didn't say it was a very useful truth, but if it's false then all sorts of bad things happen. :flirt:

 

[Akshara Dasa]

I don´t claim to know anything about the existence of God. But I have yet to see an argument that would convince me that God exists, so I don´t believe in it because, well, have just never seen or experienced anything that have made me believe there is a higher power.

I don´t know what I would consider a good argument, but I don´t think words alone can change my mind. If I am to believe in God it would require something else, something more then words, like an experience of some sort.

Would like to point out that I don´t look down on the people who would find an argument convincing that I don´t find convincing. It is in the end about who we are more then the arguments themselves. For example one of the reasons I am not a Christian is that the little I have read about the story itself doesn´t make much sense to me. I find the entire story of the fall of man to be too far fetched to be believable. To me. Which may have to do with that I have never been interested enough to actually read the Bible. Others do however think it makes sense. That is hardly because they are stupid, it is because we are different individuals.

Thank you for your response Kerr! I like how you say that the Christians are hardly stupid, but just different individuals, that is intelligence.

You say that words arnt enough to get you to believe, but have you thought that perhaps words are the beginning and that if you have faith in the words, God will progressivly show you more about himself? People say they cant see God, simply because they dont have the eyes to see God with, but you can develop those eyes! In Gaudiya Vaishnavism we say it all starts with the tounge, you dont have to accept the scritpure yet or or anything like that, just chant Hare Krishna. From that chanting God will show you himself slowly. So by having faith in the words, God can show you more.

The words are the foundation, if you dont have faith in them, how is God going to show Himself to you? You dont even have faith in his most basic teachings. So why complain to God, which is not what im saying your doing, that you cant see Him when you dont even have faith in what is said about Him?

 

[Akshara Dasa]

Could you explain why this is not circular reasoning?

I know the absolute truth, which all other reasoning depends upon: ~(P^~P)
Translated into English: A statement and its inverse are never both true at once. I didn't say it was a very useful truth, but if it's false then all sorts of bad things happen. :flirt:

I can see why you say it is, and I cant prove to you its not just that. But we believe that the scripture comes from God, and the scripture says that, and did it really come down or is that just the scripture, yes its a cery confusing arguement but it becomes less confusing with faith. Faith solves alot of problems in religion that others outside see as problems.

We have a different definition of Absolute Truth. Mine is, that from which all has arisen from, that is the Absolute Truth. Not some mind made principle.

 

[PolyHedral]

We have a different definition of Absolute Truth. Mine is, that from which all has arisen from, that is the Absolute Truth. Not some mind made principle.

Very well. If we reject my principle, then contradictions are perfectly sensible. Your truth could be true and false at the same time, and all the evidence in the world would agree with you. :flirt:

 

[Akshara Dasa]

Very well. If we reject my principle, then contradictions are perfectly sensible. Your truth could be true and false at the same time, and all the evidence in the world would agree with you. :flirt:

LOL!

Its not that I am rejecting your truth, because it is a very nice truth, but I dont place it as true at all times. In My philosophy both Advaita (non-dualism) and Dvaita (dualism) are right in their on respects. So its not absolute, but depends on the cercumstances.

 

[Onkara]

Could you explain why this is not circular reasoning?

Hi PolyHedral and Askasha
The apparent circular argument can be explained like this:
Scripture comes from God because everything comes from God. There is no clear cut divide between creator and creation in Sanatana Dharma (Upanishadic Vedanta). So you too are divine, as divine as the scripture, as everything comes from God and so is divine). God can be called the source and need not be considered the same as Abrahmic definitions of God for this understanding.

The problem is you do not recognise yourself as divine. The scriptures do not need to be recognised as divine, however the scripture will remove the doubt that you (and they) come from the same divine source, are sustained from the same divine source and will merge at death with that same source. All that happens in between is what I call life, which is itself circular. All the scriptures do, is remove that niggling doubt after which one need not worship anything, but yet everything is open for divine worship.

 

[Akshara Dasa]

Hi PolyHedral and Askasha
The apparent circular argument can be explained like this:
Scripture comes from God because everything comes from God. There is no clear cut divide between creator and creation in Sanatana Dharma (Upanishadic Vedanta). So you too are divine, as divine as the scripture, as everything comes from God and so is divine). God can be called the source and need not be considered the same as Abrahmic definitions of God for this understanding.

The problem is you do not recognise yourself as divine. The scriptures do not need to be recognised as divine, however the scripture will remove the doubt that you (and they) come from the same divine source, are sustained from the same divine source and will merge at death with that same source. All that happens in between is what I call life, which is itself circular. All the scriptures do, is remove that niggling doubt after which one need not worship anything, but yet everything is open for divine worship.

Thank you for your input Onkarah. You have added some clairity to this!

 

[James C]

:angel2:some may say that god doesnt exist because of the lack of evidence and some may say otherwise but the truth is not going to be told till the end of the world and then we will all be judged by each other and god (if u belive in him good if not please dont just start slaming my religion cause i could slam what ever religion you have just as fast not that i want to) so if yall just sit back and relax we will see soon enough.

:slap:

If you make a stand for Jesus, you may face being called names such as intolerant and ignorant, being threatend by others by many people, or being pushed out of a group of friends and being looked down on by friends coworkers and classmates. as jesus came looking for the man who honered him he will come looking for u and will stand by you to protect you. dont let the groups of society silence you. instead be courageous and stand firm in what he will teach you if you listen. stand firm and Jesus will stand with you.

 

[James C]

I have a simple solution for people who dont belive in god wait. yup you heard me right just wait he will come looking for you so if you listen he will call.

if you make a stand for Jesus, you may face being called names such as intolrant and ignorant, being threatend , being pushed away from the the friends they have by being looked down on by friends coworkers and even family as Jesus came looking for the man who honored him in the temple he will look for you stand firm with him and you shall be rewarded he will be by your side.dont let the society of today tell you silence and to stop evangelizing stad firm on what you will learn and he will stand firm in you. he stand wiith you, he will stand with you , and he has been standing with you. you just couldent see him, listen to him.

 

[Kerr]

Thank you for your response Kerr! I like how you say that the Christians are hardly stupid, but just different individuals, that is intelligence.

Thanks.

You say that words arnt enough to get you to believe, but have you thought that perhaps words are the beginning and that if you have faith in the words, God will progressivly show you more about himself? People say they cant see God, simply because they dont have the eyes to see God with, but you can develop those eyes! In Gaudiya Vaishnavism we say it all starts with the tounge, you dont have to accept the scritpure yet or or anything like that, just chant Hare Krishna. From that chanting God will show you himself slowly. So by having faith in the words, God can show you more.

The words are the foundation, if you dont have faith in them, how is God going to show Himself to you? You dont even have faith in his most basic teachings. So why complain to God, which is not what im saying your doing, that you cant see Him when you dont even have faith in what is said about Him?

If God exist and it is his words or words spoken by people who knows what they are talking about, or something like that, then there would be no issue. But I have to know that first.

And as a note, I don´t complain to God. How could I, considering that I am an atheist ? And I am not complaining about not seeing him either.

 

[James C]

sorry i posted twice i dint think it went thrugh

 

[Akshara Dasa]

Thanks.


If God exist and it is his words or words spoken by people who knows what they are talking about, or something like that, then there would be no issue. But I have to know that first.

And as a note, I don´t complain to God. How could I, considering that I am an atheist ? And I am not complaining about not seeing him either.

Lol, I know your not complaining about God. But you want to know before you have even looked into his word. Its like saying, "Im not going to read the book until I KNOW its good". now that may be a bad analogy, but you get the point. You want to know before you have given the effort to know, I dont know God yet, im not fully sure he is there yet, but im on my way to those conclusions. God is very important to me, and to find him I will sacrifice many things. That is the attitude God is looking for. My Lord says in the Gita that if you surrender to him, he will figure out everything else for you, just surrender! That is what God wants. You dont know God now, but Surrender and you will be full of Perfect Knowledge about God.

But my religion says, you dont even have to start with faith, just chant. That will be enough to cleanse your heart so that faith can arise.

 

[Kerr]

Lol, I know your not complaining about God. But you want to know before you have even looked into his word. Its like saying, "Im not going to read the book until I KNOW its good". now that may be a bad analogy, but you get the point. You want to know before you have given the effort to know, I dont know God yet, im not fully sure he is there yet, but im on my way to those conclusions. God is very important to me, and to find him I will sacrifice many things. That is the attitude God is looking for. My Lord says in the Gita that if you surrender to him, he will figure out everything else for you, just surrender! That is what God wants. You dont know God now, but Surrender and you will be full of Perfect Knowledge about God.

But my religion says, you dont even have to start with faith, just chant. That will be enough to cleanse your heart so that faith can arise.

I think you misunderstood me. My interest in God is on a philosophical level more then an actual desire to know the truth about if he exists or not. I have tendencies towards apatheism, even if I am not sure I would call myself an apatheist.

 

[Akshara Dasa]

I think you misunderstood me. My interest in God is on a philosophical level more then an actual desire to know the truth about if he exists or not. I have tendencies towards apatheism, even if I am not sure I would call myself an apatheist.

Well, that settles that! Sorry for the misunderstanding. Your more philisophical, which is fine and I respect that.

 

[Kerr]

Well, that settles that! Sorry for the misunderstanding. Your more philisophical, which is fine and I respect that.

Ok .

 

[Kilgore Trout]

But, according to us, we have the proof. Its within our scripture, many are just not looking in it to see if there is anything there! I believe in reveled scripture, and if one is such a scientist as many atheist proclaim that they follow the sciences, then why dont they delve some religions and experiament with them. The proof we give is within scripture, so why dont you look at it and experiament with it and gain your own knowledge from it instead of saying, "Nope, its not real, its man made".

If I abandon reason and logic regarding this, then where do I draw the line? There wouldn't be a reason for not believing everything that everyone else believes.

 

[Akshara Dasa]

If I abandon reason and logic regarding this, then where do I draw the line? There wouldn't be a reason for not believing everything that everyone else believes.

No, no, no You dont abandon Logic and Reasoning within the Scriptures. Not at all! Some other religions may perscribe that, but not mine! We use alot of logic and reasoning within our views of the Scriptures and Belief about God. I would like to stop the stereotype that Theists are illogical and unable to reason, and if all are that way, then im the only one who is not! Logic and Reasoning within my faith has helpped me alot.