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A highly unpleasant dogma

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davidthegreek

Active Member
Pleinmont said:
The version of Christianity which decrees you have to be 'saved/born again' to enter the heavenly idyll is nasty in the extreme! The concept that a very bad person could make a deathbed conversion and go to heaven, whilst a good person who isn't 'saved' supposedly suffers the tortures of hell, is crazy!

Everyone should have the option of attaining heaven, if it exists, should they wish to do so. Those who have been bad whilst on earth might have to earn the right by doing a few millennia of hard labour. But the majority, who are good enough, should be waved past the pearly gates by St Peter!
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some denominations are quite ridiculous. Salvation is a gift from God available to everyone. Yet not everyone accepts it, because not everyone believes. Everyone who believes though and turns his back on sin (that is what repentance means). Will have a chance because God is merciful, and forgives those who repent and change their ways.
 
Leftimies

Leftimies

Dwelling in the Principle
Now, seeing a lot of talk and debate here on the concept of Hell and who goes there...its funny, I don't think Judaism ever said a thing about Hell, at least as a place of fire and flame, reigned by Satan.

Thats why I have always been doubtful about the existence of Hell in its Christian and Islamic (which does differ from Christian one) definition. The core text of both religion - the Jewish canon - doesn't have a stance on that. Its very suspicious that such key component is introduced only in the quite late part of the book.

If I am wrong, which I very well may be, correct me :) I love to learn!
 
Copernicus

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Leftimies said:
Now, seeing a lot of talk and debate here on the concept of Hell and who goes there...its funny, I don't think Judaism ever said a thing about Hell, at least as a place of fire and flame, reigned by Satan.

Thats why I have always been doubtful about the existence of Hell in its Christian and Islamic (which does differ from Christian one) definition. The core text of both religion - the Jewish canon - doesn't have a stance on that. Its very suspicious that such key component is introduced only in the quite late part of the book.

If I am wrong, which I very well may be, correct me :) I love to learn!
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Most religions seem to have some version of hell--consequences for lack of belief or proscribed (immoral) forms of behavior. There is even a concept of hell in Buddhism--Naraka. In Japan and China, one can find ancient murals of hell that look not unlike the ones depicted in medieval Europe. The literal concept of hell seems not to be much in favor anywhere these days except with fundamentalists of various traditional religions.
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I think it gets back to, 'if there is no Hell, why bother doing the right thing?'.



^ So you stated your opinion in response to this. No problem.
 
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Copernicus

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
q connor said:
I think it gets back to, 'if there is no Hell, why bother doing the right thing?'.
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Is it really a bother to do the right thing? We all acquire rules of behavior from parents and community. It doesn't require belief in heaven or hell to make people want to do the right thing. You do what is right because you want to feel good about yourself, and you want others to feel good about you. If that isn't sufficient motivation, then we have other means of motivating people to behave properly. :)
 
oldbadger

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Revoltingest said:
Few religions are about being fair.
God is like the bouncer who let's only beautiful people into the trendy bar.
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Hello again.......!

Few religions fair? Life isn't fair. Your life-expectancy, I.Q., health, strength, wealth, luck etc is all one big lottery.

God is like......... Have you just got a grudge cos bouncers take one look at you and declare they are full up inside?
 
Copernicus

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
q connor said:
Really? Is that a statement of fact or your own opinion...
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Why would you think it anything other than my opinion? I'm assuming that your statements and claims are also opinions. The only question here is how well we can defend our opinions.

I don't believe in heaven or hell. I know from personal experience that I want the think well of myself, and I want others to think well of me. The question is, what do you want? Is it really necessary to believe in heaven and hell to motivate your good behavior?
 
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illykitty

illykitty

RF's pet cat
Sir Doom said:
In my version of the afterlife, everyone gets exactly what they want no matter what. Essentially, everyone goes to 'Heaven'.
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I believe in something similar but if someone has been bad or hasn't done anything good, they are reincarnated until they earn the right to rest and enjoy heaven (whatever it is - everyone has a different version).
 
idav

idav

Being
Premium Member
q connor said:
I think it gets back to, 'if there is no Hell, why bother doing the right thing?'.
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A person isn't really of god if the only reason they do the right thing is because of threats. NT states that things are to be done out of love not out of fear. Though fear may be the beginning of wisdom it doesn't make a person good.
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
idav said:
A person isn't really of god if the only reason they do the right thing is because of threats. NT states that things are to be done out of love not out of fear. Though fear may be the beginning of wisdom it doesn't make a person good.
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Agreed, but that leaves the question of church dogma.
 
Copernicus

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
q connor said:
You stated your opinion as fact. :p
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No, I made a statement of opinion. Same as you.

Not sure what you're arguing now.
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I'll help then. Reread post #26, and make a proper reply to it instead of quibbling over whether my statement was one of opinion, even after I made it clear to you that it was.
 
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Leftimies

Leftimies

Dwelling in the Principle
Copernicus said:
Most religions seem to have some version of hell--consequences for lack of belief or proscribed (immoral) forms of behavior. There is even a concept of hell in Buddhism--Naraka. In Japan and China, one can find ancient murals of hell that look not unlike the ones depicted in medieval Europe. The literal concept of hell seems not to be much in favor anywhere these days except with fundamentalists of various traditional religions.
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I will have to agree with you on the universality of the concept of Hell. But I just find that its rather undetectable in Judaism...I somehow have formed an image in my mind that according to some Rabbis, the equivalent of Hell for them is, like, not being resurrected but left in the state of "death", which would be what the Oblivion means...ugh, I could be horribly mistaken.

Hey, Jews! Clarify this, please XD
 
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