A letter to the Atheists

[Peace]

Peace be with you all!!

Suppose you find a watch in the middle of a desert. What would you conclude? Would you think that someone dropped the watch? Would you suppose that the watch came by itself?Of course no sane person would say that the watch just happened toemerge from the sand. All the intricate working parts could not simply develop from the metals that lay buried in the earth. The watch must have a manufacturer.If a watch tells accurate time we expect the manufacturer must be intelligent. Blind chance cannot produce a working watch.But what else tells accurate time? Consider the sunrise and sunset. Their timings are so strictly regulated that scientists can publish in advance the sunrise and sunset times in your daily newspapers. But who regulatesthe timings of sunrise and sunset? If a watch can not work without an intelligent maker, how can the sun appear to rise and set with such clockwork regularity? Could this occur by itself?Consider also that we benefit from the sun only because it remains at a safe distance from the earth, a distance that averages 93 million miles. If it got much closer the earth would burn up. And if it got too far away the earth would turn into an icy planet making human life here impossible.Who decided in advance that this was the right distance? Could it just happen by chance? Without the sun plants would not grow. Then animals and humans would starve. Did the sun just decide to be there for us? The rays of the sun would be dangerous for us had it not been for the protective ozone layer in our atmosphere. The atmosphere around earth keeps the harmful ultraviolet rays from reaching us. Who was it that placed this shield around us? We need to experience sunrise. We need the sun's energy and it's light to see our way during the day. But we also need sunset. We need a break from the heat, we need the cook of night and we need the lights to out so we may sleep. Who regulated this process to provide what we need?Moreover, if we had only the sun and the protection of the atmosphere we would want something more-beauty. Our clothes provide warmth and protection, yet we design them to also look beautiful. Knowing or need for beauty, the designer of sunrise and sunset also made the view of them to be simply breathtaking.The creator who gave us light, energy, protection and beauty deserves our thanks. Yet some people insist that He does not exist. What would they think if they found a watch in the desert? An accurate, working watch? A beautifully designed watch? Would they not conclude that there does exist a watchmaker? An intelligent watchmaker? One who appreciates beauty? Such is God who made us. SubhanAllah Glory be to our dear God who created the universe!

Peace

 

[meogi]

Wrong forum
And this question has been discussed in this thread: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2824

Show me a house that built itself! Show me a pocket watch that built itself! Show me a novel that wrote itself!

First, I`m gonna rephrase these as: Show me a house that exists by itself, pocket watch exists by itself, novel exists by itself. The only reason is the verbs you use imply something made them. You can reword them however you want, just use something that doesn`t imply the wanted (or unwanted in this case) conclusion. For that is circular logic. I guess I`ll go over this again as well... logical arguments are based of the idea that the beginning facts are true. Like, X is a cat. There exists a white cat. Y is god. If houses are built, then god is the builder of all things. These work for given facts (although it helps if there is supportive evidence as to why you think these things true (read truth, below)). The problem comes with the conclusion. In the case of the if then, the only time an if then is logically invalid, is if X is false, and Y is true. But since it is not a simple sentence, there are other rules it must follow (existential qulaifiers, and universal qualifiers). So we can get that god is the creator of all things, from the logic sentence (because yes, I would go as far to say as most every house has a builder. That doesn`t work logically (in order to show it, you technically have to show every house in existance was built) but for the sake of the next part, lets assume!)
That gives us, God is the creator of all things (3x(x is the creator of all things)). From this, we need to prove there is a god, AND that the creator of all things is said god. So you work on showing those true, and then I`ll believe your statement is logically sound.

Welcome to the forums, btw

 

[Green Gaia]

Moving this to the Atheism forum....

 

[Peace]

Thanks Meogi for your welcome

Once a bedouin about the evidence of God's Existence, He replied "All praise is due to Allah! The camel’s dung testifies to the existence of the camel, and the track testifies to the fact that someone was walking. A sky that holds the giant stars, a land that has fairways and a sea that has waves, does not all of this testify that the Most Kind, Most Knowledgeable exists?"

Tell me how can such a universe be created without having someone to create it? If I saw a table and come to you and told you "You know this table has no maker, it was made by itself, or haphazardely...) would you believe me?
Actually, whoever ponders over the things that exist, the higher and lower creatures, their various shapes, colors, behavior, benefits and ecological roles, then he will realize the ability, wisdom, knowledge, perfection and majesty of the Creator. whoever gazes at the sky in its immensity, its expanse, and the various kinds of planets in it, some of which appear stationary in the sky – whoever gazes at the seas that surround the land from all sides, and the mountains that were placed on the earth to stabilize it, so that whoever lives on land, whatever their shape and color, are able to live and thrive – whoever reads Allah’s statement:
"And among the mountains are streaks white and red, of varying colours and (others) very black. And likewise, men and ad-Dawwabb (moving, living creatures, beasts) and cattle are of various colours. It is only those who have knowledge among His servants that fear Allah." (35:27-28)

“Surely, your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then rose over (Istawa) the Throne (really in a manner that suits His Majesty), disposing the affair of all things. No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after His Leave. That is Allaah, your Lord; so worship Him (Alone). Then, will you not remember?” [Yoonus 10:3 – interpretation of the meaning]
He created (everything) then proportioned it, He ordained laws then granted guidance, He granted provision and made people independent of means:

“Allah, it is He Who has made for you the earth as a dwelling place and the sky as a canopy, and has given you shape and made your shapes good (looking) and has provided you with good things. That is Allah, your Lord, so Blessed be Allah, the Lord of the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists” [Ghaafir 40:64 – interpretation of the meaning]

Peace

 

[Green Gaia]

Changed my mind... moving to Debates now.

 

[thomasedison]

Peace be with you all!!

Suppose you find a watch in the middle of a desert. What would you conclude? Would you think that someone dropped the watch? Would you suppose that the watch came by itself?Of course no sane person would say that the watch just happened toemerge from the sand. All the intricate working parts could not simply develop from the metals that lay buried in the earth. The watch must have a manufacturer.If a watch tells accurate time we expect the manufacturer must be intelligent. Blind chance cannot produce a working watch.But what else tells accurate time? Consider the sunrise and sunset. Their timings are so strictly regulated that scientists can publish in advance the sunrise and sunset times in your daily newspapers. But who regulatesthe timings of sunrise and sunset? If a watch can not work without an intelligent maker, how can the sun appear to rise and set with such clockwork regularity? Could this occur by itself?Consider also that we benefit from the sun only because it remains at a safe distance from the earth, a distance that averages 93 million miles. If it got much closer the earth would burn up. And if it got too far away the earth would turn into an icy planet making human life here impossible.Who decided in advance that this was the right distance? Could it just happen by chance? Without the sun plants would not grow. Then animals and humans would starve. Did the sun just decide to be there for us? The rays of the sun would be dangerous for us had it not been for the protective ozone layer in our atmosphere. The atmosphere around earth keeps the harmful ultraviolet rays from reaching us. Who was it that placed this shield around us? We need to experience sunrise. We need the sun's energy and it's light to see our way during the day. But we also need sunset. We need a break from the heat, we need the cook of night and we need the lights to out so we may sleep. Who regulated this process to provide what we need?Moreover, if we had only the sun and the protection of the atmosphere we would want something more-beauty. Our clothes provide warmth and protection, yet we design them to also look beautiful. Knowing or need for beauty, the designer of sunrise and sunset also made the view of them to be simply breathtaking.The creator who gave us light, energy, protection and beauty deserves our thanks. Yet some people insist that He does not exist. What would they think if they found a watch in the desert? An accurate, working watch? A beautifully designed watch? Would they not conclude that there does exist a watchmaker? An intelligent watchmaker? One who appreciates beauty? Such is God who made us. SubhanAllah Glory be to our dear God who created the universe!

Peace

First of all, Sun's working is not complex, neither is Earth's rotation. Sun is simply gases with hydrogen and helium in core and loads of other gases surrounding the core. Biological life is complex. But that does not mean that someone has to create it. The kind of conditions that existed during the early stages of Earth were replicated in the laboratory and amino acids and cell-like structures were formed although the scientists could not initiate life. But they could not create life simply because we do not have complete information about the early Earth. Just because science does not currently have enough facts to correctly describe the creation of life through chemical recations does not mean that there has to be a creator to create life. And tell me, if Creator indeed created life, why didn't he/she do it on other planets as well? Why did the Creator have to create life 13-15 billion years after the creation of the universe?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Peace, do you think plagiarism is an ethical or effective method of argument?

 

[true blood]

I do not think that the Creator uses the same measures of time as we mortals do. To say that the Creator waited 13-15 billion years to create life could have actually only been a moments of time for the Creator.

 

[meogi]

Once a bedouin about the evidence of God's Existence, He replied "All praise is due to Allah! The camel’s dung testifies to the existence of the camel, and the track testifies to the fact that someone was walking. A sky that holds the giant stars, a land that has fairways and a sea that has waves, does not all of this testify that the Most Kind, Most Knowledgeable exists?"

Not necessarily. My logical mind tells me that the sky is full of stars (clusters of gasses), and the sea is full of waves (due to it's fluidic substance and gravitational pull from the moon), but that does not imply a god created everything. It implies that it merely is.

Tell me how can such a universe be created without having someone to create it? If I saw a table and come to you and told you "You know this table has no maker, it was made by itself, or haphazardely...) would you believe me?

No, I wouldn't. Does that mean the table didn't just make itself? No. But with an outstanding claim must come outstanding evidence.

It's like if I said I had a cat at home. You're probably gonna believe me, because having a cat isn't uncommon. But if I told you my cat was psychic, and could shoot 'mind bullets!' (thanks tenacious d!) then you're probably not gonna believe me, until I show you convincing evidence that my cat is indeed psychic (usually through seeing it with your own eyes).

So I'll ask if you have any evidence, other than natural phenomena, that suggests god exists?

Actually, whoever ponders over the things that exist, the higher and lower creatures, their various shapes, colors, behavior, benefits and ecological roles, then he will realize the ability, wisdom, knowledge, perfection and majesty of the Creator. whoever gazes at the sky in its immensity, its expanse, and the various kinds of planets in it, some of which appear stationary in the sky – whoever gazes at the seas that surround the land from all sides, and the mountains that were placed on the earth to stabilize it, so that whoever lives on land, whatever their shape and color, are able to live and thrive

I'll give it to ya. The earth is a damn cool place. I'm sure glad I'm here right now... and I hope to be here for years to come (maybe mars in my lifetime?). Existance is a wonderful thing, I'm certainly grateful I do. But again, none of this points to a creator. We just are.

"And among the mountains are streaks white and red, of varying colours and (others) very black. And likewise, men and ad-Dawwabb (moving, living creatures, beasts) and cattle are of various colours. It is only those who have knowledge among His servants that fear Allah."

(35:27-28)

“Surely, your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then rose over (Istawa) the Throne (really in a manner that suits His Majesty), disposing the affair of all things. No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after His Leave. That is Allaah, your Lord; so worship Him (Alone). Then, will you not remember?” [Yoonus 10:3 – interpretation of the meaning]
He created (everything) then proportioned it, He ordained laws then granted guidance, He granted provision and made people independent of means:

(stop being bold!) (curse you WYSIWYG, What I see is not What I'm Getting! There is no bold! here, or after this!)
So did the christian god. To be honest, I've never been in a discussion with a muslim before... I'm surprised how similar they are. I'm curious about the validity of the Quran (supportive evidence of it's divine nature). I've never had to question it before.

“Allah, it is He Who has made for you the earth as a dwelling place and the sky as a canopy, and has given you shape and made your shapes good (looking) and has provided you with good things. That is Allah, your Lord, so Blessed be Allah, the Lord of the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists” [Ghaafir 40:64 – interpretation of the meaning]

I'm glad you love allah, and that you find comfort in him. It's one of the things I adore about religions, their natural 'placebo' type effect on people. My brain is too logical to conceive of a god though... so unless you can sufficiently prove there is one, I shall remain atheist.

 

[Peace]

I'm glad you love allah, and that you find comfort in him. It's one of the things I adore about religions, their natural 'placebo' type effect on people. My brain is too logical to conceive of a god though... so unless you can sufficiently prove there is one, I shall remain atheist.

Believe me Meogi, Allah for me is my life, my hope. I cannot imagine life without Him the Almighty. Life without Him will be really bitter. He is there close to each one of us, answering our needs wether we are believers or not. His Mercy is overwhelming, overwhelms believers and non believers because we are all His servants, we like it or not because it is the TRUTH.
You know Meogi, I consider our God Allah as my permanent Companion, my provider, my protector .. I am in constant need of Him. When I am alone He is my Companion... when I am powerless He is to support me.. When I am sad He is their to soothe me... When I am poor He is to provide for me... when the others close their doors on my face, I find His door so open awide for me to resort to.... He is always so close when I am in need of Him and actually I am always in need of Him.
If I am to count His blessings days and nights I will never finish counting, for His bounties and blessings are endless.
My hope and only hope is to gain His pleasure, and to meet Him in the hereafter and He is pleased with me!!
Meogi, I don't if you know that the Quran, the Holy book that Allah reveals to Prophet Muhammad peace be upon Him 1400 years ago, contains scientific facts that scientists have just arrived to these facts recently. You could read the Quran and see by yourself the scientific facts that it contains.
FYI, My religion don't seperate science from religion, for it is a religion that deals with everyday life.
May our God guide our ways, Ameen!!!

Salam,

Peace

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Peace-- As Meogi said, we discussed this topic a bit in another thread. Here was my response to the watchmaker argument:

The difference between a house a pocket watch or a novel, and the physical universe, is that the express purpose of the former items is for the benefit of human beings. The physical universe, on the other hand, is clearly not designed or tailored specifically for the sole benefit of human existence--if it was, we wouldn't have naturally occurring deadly diseases, apocalyptic asteroids, and famine. The pocket watch arose from the nature of humans, humans arose from the nature of the universe, and the nature of the universe....well, who knows? The universe could just "be", or it could have arose from "something". However, just as it makes no sense to assume that watchmakers have a minute hand, it also makes no sense to assume that the physical universe (or the "something" that made it) has consciousness or intelligence. Besides, if we follow those assumptions, we would have to assume that the something is indifferent to suffering anyway, since that very same "something" created parasitic wasps, and flesh eating bacteria.

Still, one thing is for sure: if something made the universe, that "something" must either not be a compassionate being or it must not be very intelligent.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Hey, you're the one who's spamming my online groups with messages that have nothing to do with the topic!

Please stop that!

 

[Runt]

First, I'd like to take a moment to welcome you to the forum Peace! It is good to see you up and posting so soon; I expect we'll see you a lot around here, hehe, and we're glad to have you.

Second, I think Mr_Spinkles illustrated the problem beautifully. I find it interesting that religions that believe humans are God's special creation conclude that the universe was designed, and not only designed, but created in such a way that we and everything needed to sustain our existance would be the end product. In these kinds of religions, God must be intelligent, for if we are God's special creation and He created the universe for us, then he must be intelligent because He thought of a goal and consciously created the universe to fulfil it.

However, in religions where humans are not necessarily God's special creation, but merely another thing that exists, or even a part of God, God is not seen as intelligent or conscious. Instead, God is the way things are, rather than the one who DECIDES how things will be, and we and everything else are simply the direct result of Its existance.

In a way, many atheists approach the question much as the latter type of religions do; the universe (all matter, energy and physical laws) exists, it is not conscious, it was not created by or directed by an outside force, and not being conscious or controlled by anything other than the natural laws that are a part of it, it has no plan or purpose, and we exist simply because the universe exists.

So what do you have? God as creator of universe, God as universe, and universe.

 

[linwood]

Why do we have to have this same "watchmaker" debate every week?

 

[skills101]

Hmm... I must say I'm quite surprised at what Peace is implying - that there has to be a concious creator of something. Let me ask you a question that you obviously haven't included in your argument...

Who created God? I mean, I've never heard of a watch being for infinite.

 

[Peace]

Peace-- As Meogi said, we discussed this topic a bit in another thread. Here was my response to the watchmaker argument:

Peace be with you Mr_Spinkles,

Logically speaking, we couldn't say that human beings are a product of nature, that's against logic, and Human minds couldn't accept that.
The creator of the universe is my & your and everybody's God, He is one who has no associate, either you accept it or not.. because this is the Truth that sooner or later you will accept if not in this life it would be in the hereafter but that would be too late.
Our Merciful and Mighty Creator created us and created nature for us, we human beings, in order to exploit it and benefit from it. Allah has created all the beauty that we see in this universe for us human beings in order to comtemplate and see how Great and Mighty the creator of this universe.
Our God hasn't created us with no purpose and objective. He created us to be tested. Actually, we do live in a permanent test, for life is big exam for us. Our objective in this life is to worship Allah and to obey and follow His Laws. He sent Prophets to us to guide us and show us the laws of God to follow. Allah wants us to be honests, true, faithfuls, kind, compassionates... He wants us to contribute to the welfare of our nations. Our God forbids transgression, telling lies, adultery, killing and doing harm to others...
Allah put certain laws to follow in our daily life, and if we follow the laws of God and obey Him, we shall be rewards by Paradise. But if we disobey Him our abode will be Hell, may Allah forbid!
If we undergo certain hardships, illness, inflections.. that's because it is part of the test, to see who shall be patient and who shall not. The reward of the patient is so great.
Once we are in Paradise the test will be over and we will suffer from nothing... happiness will prevail...
By the way Allah's Mercy is so Great and with no limits. He is more Merciful than the mother to her child, for Allah who created Mercy.
Well I have a question, when you are in need of anything or you suffer from something, to whom you resort in your supplication?

Hope I can clarify things for you later. Your comments and questions are welcome.

Salam
Peace

 

[Peace]

First, I'd like to take a moment to welcome you to the forum Peace! It is good to see you up and posting so soon; I expect we'll see you a lot around here, hehe, and we're glad to have you.

Salam, Peace be with you Runt!
Thanks for your warm welcome Hope I can have more time to post.

May Allah guide us all to His everlasting Light!!

Peace

 

[Peace]

Hmm... I must say I'm quite surprised at what Peace is implying - that there has to be a concious creator of something. Let me ask you a question that you obviously haven't included in your argument...

Who created God? I mean, I've never heard of a watch being for infinite.

Peace be with you Skills101,

Well, actually I cannot worship a created being. My mind couldn't accept worshipping something is created like we are created.
Allah (The Arabic word for God) is One who has no associate, who hasn't been born neither has He given birth (He has no son or daughter). He is like no one and no one is like Him. He is the Merciful, the All-Mighty, the All-knower, praise be to Him the Supreme!!!

Peace

 

[meogi]

Logically speaking, we couldn't say that human beings are a product of nature, that's against logic, and Human minds couldn't accept that.

Whaa? We can say human beings are a product of nature and have shown it to be so (at the very least possible; but give us time). I don't see how that goes against logic. And maybe ancient human minds couldn't accept it, but modern people have no troubles with it (well, asside from most religious types). This statement comes off as a strawman to me... but I'm no expert in that field, and only have a basic understanding of what a strawman is. Anyone?

Allah wants us to be honests, true, faithfuls, kind, compassionates... He wants us to contribute to the welfare of our nations. Our God forbids transgression, telling lies, adultery, killing and doing harm to others...

I am all those things (and more!). Yet I do not believe in a god. Will Allah forgive me? Or does belief have to be a part?

Our Merciful and Mighty Creator created us and created nature for us, we human beings, in order to exploit it and benefit from it. Allah has created all the beauty that we see in this universe for us human beings in order to comtemplate and see how Great and Mighty the creator of this universe.

Evidence? Any? Just curious. I usually require some of that before I'll start to 'believe' in anything.

 

[Peace]

I am all those things (and more!). Yet I do not believe in a god. Will Allah forgive me? Or does belief have to be a part?

Belief is obligatory. If you have the most noble traits on this earth and you are not believer in Allah, He will not forgive you. How can He forgive you and you don't belive in Him, He who created you.
Nature, which is nature and not human beings, do belive in Allah and they do worship Him and praise Him. Every living creature in the universe has it's own way in praising God. We don't understand their languages but they do. There once was a Prophet "Solomon" peace be upon him, who used to understand the language of animals and every living creature.

I would like to ask you, what is the objective of your existance, why do you exist? and to whom you resort when you are in need of anything? would you tell me?

Peace,