A letter to the Atheists

[_salam_]

I do intend to... the Quran is not exactly an easily found text (in english) here in Japan.

Just do a simple search on the internet. There are a ton of Islamic sites out there that have the Qur'an available in a number of different languages.

 

[evol]

as far as a personified god, i'm with you Meogi..it just doesn't seem logical.. however to take a leaf from the book of Dao.. i do believe in a 'creator' if you will...not a personified deity but a ubiquitous energy or life force that permeates the entire universe and was the power behind it's creation...so i guess in a broader sense there is your 'God'..which when you delve deep enough into ANY religion is the esscence of it all anyway...but as for 'God' determining our fate or salvation i can't say i agree... I can understand the attractiveness of this primal instinct to humanise things/forces we are not capable of comprehending..but it isn't for me!as a wise man once said 'religion is like the flame of a candle within a multi-faceted lamp, no matter what colour the face you happen to look through the energy of the flame is always constant' in other words all the religions, essentially, have the same focus and the same ideals..put in words or fashions which are relevant to a particular people in a particular place at a particular point in time...but they are all trying to convey a message of tolerance and compassion towards all people...unfortunately for all involved in organised religion the people in power throughout history have tended to taint and warp these religious ideals to thier own political need...and thus forever corrupt them.

 

[Peace]

as far as a personified god, i'm with you Meogi..it just doesn't seem logical.. however to take a leaf from the book of Dao.. i do believe in a 'creator' if you will...not a personified deity but a ubiquitous energy or life force that permeates the entire universe and was the power behind it's creation...

Peace be with you Evol and welcome,
We cannot personify God or imagine how He is, Glory be to Him, God is above all that, He is like no one.
"Say: HE IS God the one the most unique, God the immanently indispensable. He has begotten on one, and is begotten of none. There is no one comparable to Him" Quran

but as for 'God' determining our fate or salvation i can't say i agree...
.

God the almighty is the Creator of everything, and He is our creator. so He knows our fate because He is All-knowing and our creator. But it is WE who determine our fate, it is WE who choose either the path of guidance and good or that of evil. Allah showed us both ways, and He gave us the previlige of choice, it is for us to choose which way to follow either the good or the bad one.

Salam,
Peace

 

[chuck010342]

Chuck,

Please, please, please take a course in logic. It will make these things so much easier for all of us.

TVOR

I did take a course on logic I got an A in the course FYI

I like to keep things simple for when I teach my teaching is simple and easy to understand

Socrates did it this way and so did Jesus and I inted to follow my masters example

 

[meogi]

God the almighty is the Creator of everything, and He is our creator. so He knows our fate because He is All-knowing and our creator. But it is WE who determine our fate, it is WE who choose either the path of guidance and good or that of evil. Allah showed us both ways, and He gave us the previlige of choice, it is for us to choose which way to follow either the good or the bad one.

Interesting... I like this definition of all-knowing. But did he know before we existed? Or does he not know until that instant we are 'existed'?

And is following Allah the only 'good' path? Because like I stated before, if you live a good life according to his teachings, but don't believe, why are you cast away? Requiring someone to believe in order to get a 'bonus' is greedy. And casting those who don't believe, to me, is jealousy. And these are just human ideas, expressed on something that probably would be 'above' them... but I'd like to know why he requires your belief so much. (So much that it is the only way to obtain a desirable outcome after death).

And I answered chuck's question on IM, TVOR. So that tangent can be dropped, for now... if you plan on continuing from the answer I gave you chuck, please make a new thread.

 

[Pah]

Interesting... I like this definition of all-knowing. But did he know before we existed? Or does he not know until that instant we are 'existed'?
...

I would have a further question regarding

God the almighty is the Creator of everything, and He is our creator. so He knows our fate because He is All-knowing and our creator. But it is WE who determine our fate, it is WE who choose either the path of guidance and good or that of evil. Allah showed us both ways, and He gave us the previlige of choice, it is for us to choose which way to follow either the good or the bad one.

How can God(or Allah) be "all-knowing" if there is choice?

-pah-

 

[Peace]

Interesting... I like this definition of all-knowing. But did he know before we existed? Or does he not know until that instant we are 'existed'?

Verily Our God knows what is hidden in our breasts and what we diclose. There is nothing of the hidden in the heavens and the earth that is not recorded in the luminous Book. He does know before we existed, before even Adam was created. When He decided to create Adam, then all the progeny of Adam since Adam and till the day of resurrection is written in a Book.

but I'd like to know why he requires your belief so much. (So much that it is the only way to obtain a desirable outcome after death).

Because we are His trustees on this earth.. because you and me and all human beings are His vicegerents on this earth. When Allah created Adam, He created him to be His trustee on this earth and that's the task of his progeny as well. Our purpose in this life is to work for the benefit of our earth and to worship God. Allah wants us to work for the good of our world. That's a kind of worship as well. Allah is so Merciful, He accepts all those who repent and go back to Him. if the sinnner has sinned all his/her life but go back to Him repenting He accepts him/her and opens His door widely for whoever resort to Him.

Peace

 

[Peace]

I would have a further question regarding How can God(or Allah) be "all-knowing" if there is choice?

-pah-

Simply because He is our Creator, He is God capable of everything, knowing everything in this universe. He knows every little single thing about us, what we hide and what we show, He is the All-knowing, glory be to Him! He is just to everyone of us, He for He has given that choice to choose the path we want to follow, and of course He knows already the path that we will follow, for He is our God, our Creator.

Peace

 

[meogi]

Allah is so Merciful, He accepts all those who repent and go back to Him.

But why not those who do not believe in him? Even if they have lived a 'good' life according to his word. That's what I want to know.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

... I answered chuck's question on IM, TVOR. So that tangent can be dropped, for now

I will honor your wishes, Meogi. I'm certain that the use of logic and reason will arise again at a more appropriate time.

Thanks,
TVOR

 

[Peace]

But why not those who do not believe in him? Even if they have lived a 'good' life according to his word. That's what I want to know.

Meogi, how do you expect to enter the Paradise of the One who you don't believe in Him. He is your God and everybody's God either you want it or not, He is the One who created you. He decided to create you thus you are chosen, but alas you deny Him and you are ungrateful to Him. in spite of all these, He still provides for you and care for you because He is your Lord and God and because He is Merciful. He loves so much those who go back to Him.
Meogi, if you want Him to give you a sign of His existence, you must ask Him sincerly. How can He answer you and you deny His existance. You must resort to Him with a sincere heart and mind and ask for His guidance, just try to prostrate to Him and ask Him and be persistent in asking and you will see... the result will be surely postive. If you really want a sign from Him you must ask Him sincerly and politely.
Hope you could do it, and also hope you could find a good translation of the Holy Quran, you could even order it via internet. believe me you will lose nothing if you read it, on the contrary you will benefit a lot.
May our Merciful Allah guide you to the Truth and the right path!!

 

[meogi]

Meogi, how do you expect to enter the Paradise of the One who you don't believe in Him.

How? For one thing, if he was all-loving/caring, it wouldn't matter if a person believed in him or not. He may be merciful and providing to me now, but why does he stop after I die? Why does he not forgive those who do not believe.

He is your God and everybody's God either you want it or not, He is the One who created you.

In case you're confused, this is the standpoint I'm reasoning from. I am accepting the idea that he exists and created me, just so we can debate it. Does not mean I believe it to be true, though.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

He may be merciful and providing to me now, but why does he stop after I die?

Great question, Meogi. I've never even thought about that before, but this is very deep. If God exists, why would our state of existence make any difference to him? If God does not care enough to impart his damnation or rewards on us while we live, why would he care just because our body ceases to function? To God, this would be nothing more than a hiccup - he's gonna be around tomorrow either way.

Your question may be the one of the best arguments I've ever seen for the position that God is made in our image (anthropomorphism). I think I'll start a thread on this.

Thanks,
TVOR

 

[Faust]

I like to keep things simple for when I teach my teaching is simple and easy to understand

Socrates did it this way and so did Jesus and I inted to follow my masters example

The Socratic method intails asking questions that lead a student to logically work out an answer. Jesus taught mainly through parables. The two teachers you sight in this example do not follow the same method.:tsk:

 

[chuck010342]

I like to keep things simple for when I teach my teaching is simple and easy to understand

Socrates did it this way and so did Jesus and I inted to follow my masters example

The Socratic method intails asking questions that lead a student to logically work out an answer. Jesus taught mainly through parables. The two teachers you sight in this example do not follow the same method.:tsk:

the point I was making is that both teachers use simple teaching, socrates and jesus used different methods, but the but taught in easy ways

 

[Faust]

the point I was making is that both teachers use simple teaching, socrates and jesus used different methods, but the but taught in easy ways

And the point I was making is that you are confusing mythos with logos.

 

[chuck010342]

the point I was making is that both teachers use simple teaching, socrates and jesus used different methods, but the but taught in easy ways

And the point I was making is that you are confusing mythos with logos.

there is nothing illogical about God

 

[The Voice of Reason]

I don't know that I can agree with that statement, but He does have some illogical followers, though!

TVOR

 

[Faust]

(there is nothing illogical about God)

Buy gollie Chuck you've got spunk! And I must confess I feel a certain kinship with you on that level! I am enjoying our exchanges and I truly hope that I do not offend because that is not my intention. I simply love debate! Again I commend you on your concern for humanity. I believe it is very admirable. However, and I concede that this may be beyond my ability to understand, if God is the embodiment of perfection, and man is imperfect, then that sets up the proposition that perfection creates imperfection. Additionally, perfection punishes or rewards imperfection based on the free choice that the created was endowed with by the creator, but imperfection is a bit of a handicap, isn't it? Sorry but this seems a little illogical to me. Also, if we were created in Gods image, then wouldn't we be perfect, or does this imply a level of imperfection on Gods part? Again this seems a little illogical to me. But after all, I am imperfect, aren't I.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

there is nothing illogical about God

Which one?