A letter to the Atheists

[mahayana]

Interesting article, Linwood. Are you suggesting that Jesus scripted some things to adapt the Horus myth to Judaism's prophesies, or that the whole New Testament is a hoax (Jesus never existed)? Are there any believers in Horus in Egypt today, or has Islam suppressed/destroyed/supplanted this faith?

 

[linwood]

I tend to believe just on faith that Jesus probably existed.

I think the writers of the NT melded alot of what they considered pagan faiths into a legend about his life in order to give the new religion Christianity more appeal to the masses.

I think Horus is gone, Islam has supplanted the ancient Egyptian Gods.

 

[mahayana]

So, you believe in a historical Jesus (a man), but discount myths and miracles and sayings that fulfill prophesies? Does that leave an enlightened one, a great teacher/ prince of peace, a person you sympathize with and admire?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Are you suggesting that Jesus scripted some things to adapt the Horus myth to Judaism's prophesies, or that the whole New Testament is a hoax (Jesus never existed)?

Not every fabrication is a hoax. On the one hand, there is no compelling evidence that would lead one to an informed belief that anything written about 'Jesus' is accurate. On the other, there is a great deal of circumstantial evident to suggest that much of what was witten is very sloppy fiction.

 

[linwood]

So, you believe in a historical Jesus (a man), but discount myths and miracles and sayings that fulfill prophesies? Does that leave an enlightened one, a great teacher/ prince of peace, a person you sympathize with and admire?

Well, even as an atheist I would like to be able to admire Jesus as a man and revolutionary because much of what is credited to him as having said are things that I have come to the conclusion are good and just and moral and admirable.

The reason I cannot have an outright consistent admiration for Jesus is because of the horridly sloppy way his followers documented his teachings, and then the way his later followers usurped his teachings and twisted them to their own means and picked and chose which of his teachings were to be held with no authority to do so.

It troubles me that so many conflicting thoughts and deeds are had/done in his name and therefore it is incomprehensible to me that all of this "fuss" was created over a totally fictional character.
Thats where the faith part comes in for me.
So yes, I believe Jesus most probably existed as a man.

Whatever truth there is of Jesus was purposely lost by his followers to suit their own needs.
I find that deplorable

I just can`t base an opinion on a man with what sources have been left for me to form it with..it`s not acceptable for me.

It`s not Jesus I reject, I only reject Christianitys version of him.

 

[chuck010342]

I'm sorry Chuck but I believe we debate from different foundations.

Of course we do your atheist and I follow Jesus. Your foundation is the believe in materalism or something similar. My foundation is GOD

I do not mean to offend here but I see your method as something I define as the lucky penny in the pocket defense.
If something happens and I say it happened because you had your lucky penny in your pocket, you could say that you didn't have a penny in your pocket when that happened, I would then say "prove it". You could say that there is no such thing as a lucky penny and I could reply "prove it". No one would know whether you had a lucky penny,let alone whether said penny was in your pocket when "something" happened, but no one could "prove" that my statements were erroneous either. Based on this method, no one would be able to "prove" or "disprove" the existence of nor the possesion of such a thing as a lucky penny by you or anyone else, and they certainly could not prove that a lucky penny did or did not exist, nor could they "prove" that it might or might not have an influence on anything that happens. I have no ability to defend my point of view against this kind of argument, it doesn't allow for it, but it isn't a very effective method of convincing someone to accept your point of view.

perhaps I'm not steering the debate in the right way. You see when I debate for the gospel I always use the socratic method. This method takes along time to get the right words working but its the only one I know of.

my prove or disprove statements are being stated because the specifics of the argument presented by others.

 

[chuck010342]

I tend to believe just on faith that Jesus probably existed.

I think the writers of the NT melded alot of what they considered pagan faiths into a legend about his life in order to give the new religion Christianity more appeal to the masses.

Why would they do that? Clearly if they gave Jesus new abilies that he didn't do then they would not be considered followers of him. I seriously doubt that the Gospel of John would include any pagan faiths because of his jewishness. The gospel of matthew would also not do this because it is the most pro-jewish of all the gospels.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Clearly if they gave Jesus new abilies that he didn't do then they would not be considered followers of him.

That is not at all clear. In fact, it's barely coherent.

Other than (possibly) the Jerusalem cult, there were no "followers of him" - 'him' had been reportedly dead for decades when the NT was being fabricated. And it was being fabricated in a highly charged and polemical environment, when an increasingly gentile sect was simultaneously pitting itself against normative Judaism while competing against the various cults of he Hellenistic world. It was the perfect environment for pious fraud and embellishment, as is exemplified by the accretion of the 'Virgin Birth' legend.

 

[martha]

Good day to you all and peace be with you. I am new to this forum stuff and new to computers. Please be patient with me.
There are many enlightened minds here, religious and athiests.I feel a little inadequate to speak here for my beliefs are simple. Quite frankly my dears none of us will know the truth 'til our time comes to leave this place. If I may say this without offending, it is all conjecture, but these ideas are the essence of our individual existance.
What I find most pleasing about being here with you all is there is no hatred. All I feel in this forum is peace, acceptance, and understanding. Would that this peace could extend beyond this forum. To be able to discuss ones feelings without fear of being pushed out or shunned is truly the beginning of co-existance in this world. I commend you all for your patience with each other. Now if you will forgive me for babbling on,:jiggy: I would like to share one of my experiences with you and await your replies.
In my youth I followed the wrong path. As a catholic I will say that I danced with the devil, drank with the devil and slept with the devil. At the same time though, I believed in God and spoke with Him often, offering thanks even in the midsts of my darkness. About 17 yrs. ago I was out walking and looked across the park at the church. The center doors were wide open and for some reason I was drawn to them. I had not been in church in about 15 years at that time. When they changed the Mass from Latin to English I felt uncomfortable. Heaven forbid I should finally understand what was being said. As I entered I noticed there was not another soul in the church but me. I looked to the front and noticed the confessional booth. I don't know why but suddenly I was heading toward it. I opened the door and entered. I expected to be in a small enclosure w/a screen in front of me that would open, but it was not exactly that way. I said hello and a voice came from the back and said "Come in". I walked to the back of this small room and there was the priest sitting in front of a small table and he told me to sit down. At this point I wanted to run. What was I doing in here? I don't want to confess, not after 15 yrs! Let me out! To late though I was now committed. I told the priest that I hadn't been to confession in a long time and I might not remember my Act of Contrition, which is what we say after confessing our sins. He told me not to worry for if I faltered he would help me. So I began telling him my sins. After each one he said "How many times?" I tried to give a proper total but it became increasingly difficult, and I began to perspire profusely. Again and again he said "How many times?' Finally I blurted out "I don't know Father, a lot, a lot, a lot of times!" Then the dawn came, as the saying goes. For the first time in my life I realized how many times I had slapped God in the face, so to speak. How many times did I say I loved Him but had gone my own way in the world. It was a very humbling experience. I told him I was finished and he asked me to begin my Act of Contrition. I began...Oh my God I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, for Thou art good and deserving of all my love...it was here that I began to sob more deeply than I ever had. I finished and the priest told me to bow my head for the absolution. He began speaking in Latin and then it happened. As I sat with head bowed and eyes closed, I could see and feel the brightest, warmest overwhelming triangular shaped light descending over me. It enveloped me body, mind and soul. It was white, warm, unconditional love. Suddenly I heard in my mind (not in my ears) these words, " I have been waiting for you, I love you and I forgive you." As the imprint of these words in my mind stopped, the experience stopped also. I looked at the priest and wanted to say, "Father did you see that?" , but I didn't because I knew it was just for me this time.
I want you to think of the most powerful love you have ever felt. The kind that you can feel in the center of your chest just at the thought of the person you love. My dears that is nothing, nothing compared with the love of God. His love enters your soul completely. God's essence is love, that is what His existance is, pure love.
Now I know that some of you may say, "Well Martha, you had unburdened your soul after fifteen years and perhaps your sence of relief gave you this experience of euphoria. No, beloved of God, that is not it. I had been to confession before and after this incident but never have I felt anything like this. It was the most awesome love I had ever felt in my life. I think at this point I should say...
For those who believe, no explanation is necessary, for those who don't believe no explanation is sufficient. I still want to hear your thoughts pro or con. As for me, I had faith before this but now I seem to have been given the knowledge of His existance and I will never deny Him.
Finally I will end this sharing with you and await your thoughts. I remain,

Joyfully in God,
Martha

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Martha,

Welcome to the forums and I hope you find many friends here. You will, if you choose to.
I am not a moderator, but I'm sure one will see your post soon enough. They may choose to move your post to a more appropriate forum on this site - or they may not - they may leave it right here. Either way, I'll reply to this post.

I am happy for you, that you have had your experience with your God. Your belief in God is a textbook example of why it is called "revealed faith". I have never had that experience, in spite of being raised in Church until my late teens or early twenties. As you can see from my profile, I am an Agnostic - I do not know that God exists, for He has never seen fit to give me empirical knowledge of his existence. I do not rule out the possibility that God is out there, because I know that (logically) you can never prove a universal negative (the fallacy of negative proof).
Again, congratulations on having been "touched" by your God. I mean that sincerely. Glad to have you on board. One word of advice - if you post something on this site, you will almost certainly be challenged by someone to defend your position. You will very rarely be attacked personally (rude behaviour is uncommon on this site), but you will be put to the test.

Best of luck,
TVOR

 

[martha]

Thank you Voice of Reason for your welcome and indulgence. I am not very good at defending my position.I don't think I have enough on the ball to post to this site, but I will still look in to see what you all have to say. All I know is what I felt. For the longest time I wondered why me of all people, then I just said thank you. I believe there must be others who have had similar experiences and I hope I will someday here from them. Until then I will try my best to be a good soul while I am here. I must say, though, if what I felt was really God, which I do believe, brother I can't wait to meet Him! Imagine jumping into the abiss of LOVE. Thank you again. I wish you all blessings, joy and enlightenment.
Martha

 

[Lightkeeper]

Good day to you all and peace be with you. I am new to this forum stuff and new to computers. Please be patient with me.
There are many enlightened minds here, religious and athiests.I feel a little inadequate to speak here for my beliefs are simple. Quite frankly my dears none of us will know the truth 'til our time comes to leave this place. If I may say this without offending, it is all conjecture, but these ideas are the essence of our individual existance.
What I find most pleasing about being here with you all is there is no hatred. All I feel in this forum is peace, acceptance, and understanding. Would that this peace could extend beyond this forum. To be able to discuss ones feelings without fear of being pushed out or shunned is truly the beginning of co-existance in this world. I commend you all for your patience with each other. Now if you will forgive me for babbling on,:jiggy: I would like to share one of my experiences with you and await your replies.
In my youth I followed the wrong path. As a catholic I will say that I danced with the devil, drank with the devil and slept with the devil. At the same time though, I believed in God and spoke with Him often, offering thanks even in the midsts of my darkness. About 17 yrs. ago I was out walking and looked across the park at the church. The center doors were wide open and for some reason I was drawn to them. I had not been in church in about 15 years at that time. When they changed the Mass from Latin to English I felt uncomfortable. Heaven forbid I should finally understand what was being said. As I entered I noticed there was not another soul in the church but me. I looked to the front and noticed the confessional booth. I don't know why but suddenly I was heading toward it. I opened the door and entered. I expected to be in a small enclosure w/a screen in front of me that would open, but it was not exactly that way. I said hello and a voice came from the back and said "Come in". I walked to the back of this small room and there was the priest sitting in front of a small table and he told me to sit down. At this point I wanted to run. What was I doing in here? I don't want to confess, not after 15 yrs! Let me out! To late though I was now committed. I told the priest that I hadn't been to confession in a long time and I might not remember my Act of Contrition, which is what we say after confessing our sins. He told me not to worry for if I faltered he would help me. So I began telling him my sins. After each one he said "How many times?" I tried to give a proper total but it became increasingly difficult, and I began to perspire profusely. Again and again he said "How many times?' Finally I blurted out "I don't know Father, a lot, a lot, a lot of times!" Then the dawn came, as the saying goes. For the first time in my life I realized how many times I had slapped God in the face, so to speak. How many times did I say I loved Him but had gone my own way in the world. I was a very humbling experience. I told him I was finished and he asked me to begin my Act of Contrition. I began...Oh my God I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, for Thou art good and deserving of all my love...it was here that I began to sob more deeply than I ever had. I finished and the priest told me to bow my head for the absolution. He began speaking in Latin and then it happened. As I sat with head bowed and eyes closed, I could see and feel the brightest, warmest overwhelming triangular shaped light descending over me. It enveloped me body, mind and soul. It was white, warm, unconditional love. Suddenly I heard in my mind (not in my ears) these words, " I have been waiting for you, I love you and I forgive you." As the imprint of these words in my mind stopped, the experience stopped also. I looked at the priest and wanted to say, "Father did you see that?" , but I didn't because I knew it was just for me.
I want you to think of the most powerful love you have ever felt. The kind that you can feel in the center of your chest just at the thought of the person you love. My dears that is nothing, nothing compared with the love of God. His love enters your soul completely. God's essence is love, that is what His existance is, pure love.
Now I know that some of you may say, "Well Martha you had unburdened your soul after fifteen years and perhaps your sence of relief gave you this experience. No, beloved of God, that is not it. I had been to confession before and after this incident but never have I felt anything like this. It was the most awesome love I had ever felt in my life. I think at this point I should say...
For those who believe, no explanation is necessary, for those who don't believe no explanation is sufficient. I still want to hear your thoughts pro or con. As for me, I had faith before this but now I seem to have been given the knowledge of His existance and I will never deny Him.
Finally I will end this sharing with you and await your thoughts. I remain,

Joyfully in God,
Martha

Welcome the forum, Martha. You might want to introduce yourself in the Member Introduction forum.

 

[mahayana]

Martha,

I think your post does belong here, it's certainly a letter to the athiests. Just curious, did you become a good Catholic again after your experience?

We were discussing the historical Jesus, whether the NT accounts were embellished with Egyptian mythology about Horus (to be specific). Did you click on the link about that yet (post 81)? I'd be interested in your thoughts?

VOR is correct about the challenging that goes on here. At best, these discussions are like debates; you learn new things, refine your opinions. At worst, the people talk past each other, and you gain insight into how differently folks approach their deeply held conclusions, faith, doubts.

Thanks for sharing your pivotal experience.

 

[chuck010342]

That is not at all clear. In fact, it's barely coherent.

Other than (possibly) the Jerusalem cult, there were no "followers of him" - 'him' had been reportedly dead for decades when the NT was being fabricated. And it was being fabricated in a highly charged and polemical environment, when an increasingly gentile sect was simultaneously pitting itself against normative Judaism while competing against the various cults of he Hellenistic world. It was the perfect environment for pious fraud and embellishment, as is exemplified by the accretion of the 'Virgin Birth' legend.

really? okay how about the disciples

The most significant is John who wrote the Gosple of John and was Jesus's disciple.

also explain to me how the Gosples were written so similar to eachother if they were fabricated.

Also we have a professional person writing a gospel (luke) who is writting to a friend of his so that he may "know the absolute truth about these things"

I think these two accounts can be trusted. Also I have faith in the holy spirit who is keeping things in order

 

[Pah]

also explain to me how the Gosples were written so similar to eachother if they were fabricated.

They were copied and amplified.

Bob

 

[chuck010342]

They were copied and amplified.

Bob

I meant the gospels Mark,Matthew, Luke, John

 

[Knownothin]

Has anyone noticed the fact that whenever anyone writes a post, the person replying, only replies to the parts that fit their argument, ten points can be made, nine will be ignored, and the one picked on, will be made to represent the other persons whole argument, it's strange how we are able to see what we want to see, and can turn a blind eye to what we dont.
A bit like this,
I read what Martha had to say, and I think I am right in saying she is happy, I think she also knows how a suicide bomber feels when she says: 'if what I felt was really God, which I do believe, brother I can't wait to meet Him! Imagine jumping into the abiss of LOVE.
When a religion takes hold of a person, it must be like being on drugs, as we have discovered to our cost.
In the hands of the wrong people, it's a powerful weapon.
Not 'us' of coarse, we are the right people, our religion is pure, and only used for good,
or should that be 'our good'?

 

[Pah]

I meant the gospels Mark,Matthew, Luke, John

Me too!! Mark is the one that was copied into Matthew and Luke and then amplifiied

Bob

 

[chuck010342]

Me too!! Mark is the one that was copied into Matthew and Luke and then amplifiied

Bob

good I wasn't sure if we were on the same page with that

It seems that the reverse is true. Luke used Mark and Q as his sources for his gospel

 

[cardero]

Knownothin writes: Has anyone noticed the fact that whenever anyone writes a post, the person replying, only replies to the parts that fit their argument, ten points can be made, nine will be ignored, and the one picked on, will be made to represent the other persons whole argument, it's strange how we are able to see what we want to see, and can turn a blind eye to what we dont.

I think people have a tendency to comment on what they K(NOW) (to understand or KNOW in the NOW) they what they do not K(NOW). I have a tendency to do this as well. If I read it somewhere or experienced it or observed it I feel I may have something to add to the discussion or debate. If there is something that I do not understand I ask for more clarification or just do not feel justified in partaking in that particular point.
I also wanted to extend a warm welcome to you and I hope your stay here is informative.
Who K(NOW)s you may want to upgrade your handle to "knowsumptin" after prowling around these boards.