A letter to the Atheists

[mahayana]

My belief is that God is everything, and nothing, and you and me.

One illogical belief of some Muslims is that killing infidels to achieve martyrdom will get them into Paradise.

 

[chuck010342]

(there is nothing illogical about God)

Buy gollie Chuck you've got spunk! And I must confess I feel a certain kinship with you on that level! I am enjoying our exchanges and I truly hope that I do not offend because that is not my intention. I simply love debate!

Yeah I love it to and I like our exchange

Again I commend you on your concern for humanity. I believe it is very admirable. However, and I concede that this may be beyond my ability to understand,

Well I will help you

if God is the embodiment of perfection, and man is imperfect, then that sets up the proposition that perfection creates imperfection. Additionally, perfection punishes or rewards imperfection based on the free choice that the created was endowed with by the creator, but imperfection is a bit of a handicap, isn't it? Sorry but this seems a little illogical to me.

Yes God created us with free choice. whatever that choice is we either get rewarded or we get punished. We are imperfect but our limitations on perfection is not a good excuse for making bad choices. We are imprefect bad people that is a fact. However God has told us what we need to do in order to get back to him to be good perfect people agian. God created us to have free choice but he also told us how to reedem ourselves.

Also, if we were created in Gods image, then wouldn't we be perfect, or does this imply a level of imperfection on Gods part? Again this seems a little illogical to me. But after all, I am imperfect, aren't I.

created in his likeness and his image means that God created us to be in rightousness to be holy and to be knowledgeable. It also means we as humans are to be stewards over creation

 

[chuck010342]

Which one?

there is only one.

"The LORD our God is one"

 

[Faust]

Yes I'm familiar with this line of reasoning but it doesn't speak to my point, does it?
It is simply illogical to propose that perfection generates imperfection.

 

[chuck010342]

I might of missed your point then . It doesn't seem to be illogical that Perfection creates imperfection. Maybe the term perfection is a little loose. What does the word perfection mean to you?

to faust

 

[bholly72]

Jeesh, not the argument from design again. Don't any believers read Hume? This nonsense was demolished over 200 years ago. Feh. - Brian

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Bholly72 -

If you are new to the site, hello. This is the first I've seen of your postings. I'm glad to see a student of philosophy - welcome aboard. As for the ignorance of the writings of David Hume, be prepared to see incredible feats of ignorance demonstrated, right before your eyes.
The truth is that we are all ignorant, just on different subjects. I can tolerate the ignorance (since we all have it), but those that insist on clinging to stupidity will boggle your mind. Alas, that is the fun of this site (for me) - you learn a little, teach a little, and have some fun with the rest.

Thanks,
TVOR

PS - I'm guessing that you're a Buddy Holly fan. Maybe a nice picture of a Cricket for the avatar would do well?

 

[tetra46]

Peace be with you all!!

Suppose you find a watch in the middle of a desert. What would you conclude? Would you think that someone dropped the watch? Would you suppose that the watch came by itself?Of course no sane person would say that the watch just happened toemerge from the sand. All the intricate working parts could not simply develop from the metals that lay buried in the earth. The watch must have a manufacturer.If a watch tells accurate time we expect the manufacturer must be intelligent. Blind chance cannot produce a working watch.But what else tells accurate time? Consider the sunrise and sunset. Their timings are so strictly regulated that scientists can publish in advance the sunrise and sunset times in your daily newspapers. But who regulatesthe timings of sunrise and sunset? If a watch can not work without an intelligent maker, how can the sun appear to rise and set with such clockwork regularity? Could this occur by itself?Consider also that we benefit from the sun only because it remains at a safe distance from the earth, a distance that averages 93 million miles. If it got much closer the earth would burn up. And if it got too far away the earth would turn into an icy planet making human life here impossible.Who decided in advance that this was the right distance? Could it just happen by chance? Without the sun plants would not grow. Then animals and humans would starve. Did the sun just decide to be there for us? The rays of the sun would be dangerous for us had it not been for the protective ozone layer in our atmosphere. The atmosphere around earth keeps the harmful ultraviolet rays from reaching us. Who was it that placed this shield around us? We need to experience sunrise. We need the sun's energy and it's light to see our way during the day. But we also need sunset. We need a break from the heat, we need the cook of night and we need the lights to out so we may sleep. Who regulated this process to provide what we need?Moreover, if we had only the sun and the protection of the atmosphere we would want something more-beauty. Our clothes provide warmth and protection, yet we design them to also look beautiful. Knowing or need for beauty, the designer of sunrise and sunset also made the view of them to be simply breathtaking.The creator who gave us light, energy, protection and beauty deserves our thanks. Yet some people insist that He does not exist. What would they think if they found a watch in the desert? An accurate, working watch? A beautifully designed watch? Would they not conclude that there does exist a watchmaker? An intelligent watchmaker? One who appreciates beauty? Such is God who made us. SubhanAllah Glory be to our dear God who created the universe!

Peace

You gullible fool...Your theory above is so easily smashed to pieces' it's almost embarrasing. Most atheist are well educated rational human beings. And I want you to really understand the word 'RATIONAL' because it really does give the answer to your so called theory. More powerful than the word 'logic' because logic can be in some way linked to the workings of a faith. But being rational can never be the latter. Now that's out the way I'll use your own theory to attack your foolisness. And it's so simple, because if all you have stated must have a creator....THEN WHO IN THE HELL CREATED THE CREATOR? You can't have it both ways. In your eyes a creator just appears, what rubbish. I only wish I could live long enough to finally see the end of all religions. Religion will one day end and the main reason why? Mankind will educate to be realist and rational and all your faiths will become what they really are....MYTHS

 

[bholly72]

Thanks for the kind words. Best - Brian

 

[linwood]

there is only one.

"The LORD our God is one"

How do you know this is the right god?

What proves this gods legitimacy over another god?

Why do you believe the Judaic god is the right/only one instead of Horus?

 

[Just4Jesus]

I used to think I was atheist. I used to compare religion with science.
When I thought about religion, I thought about what other people thought about it.
Not what I thought about it.
I realized that your relationship with God is your own. Not anyone else's.
Only those that you share your relationship, are those that want to share in the relationship.
The Bible tells us, if someone does not want to learn about our Father, and of the Son, then do not entrust such wisdom to them.
One thing I will say to all atheists out there, is when you are looking proof based on what humans have termed "science", try to realize that this science is how God created life. Humans did not create science.
Evolution is simply a term used by humans to say how God put the chemicals in the earth together to make these marvelous bodies of humans, animals, and plants over time.
The Bible says God created the world in six days, but that is a reference of time that is understandable by all humans that read it.
Those that can see, let them see. Those that can hear, let them hear.
Praise Allah and his Son, Jesus!
Let's pray for all human souls!

 

[The Voice of Reason]

I used to think I was atheist.

You should have stopped this post after the fourth word. At that point, you were ahead. Then you squandered your lead. More's the pity.

The Bible tells us, if someone does not want to learn about our Father, and of the Son, then do not entrust such wisdom to them.

I like that - don't tell the nonbelievers - we can't trust them to tell 'em with wisdom. Nice.

Humans did not create science.

Wrong - and by no small margin. Would you say that the apes developed science? The amphibians? The plants? Utter rubbish, and without any thought put into this statement.

Evolution is simply a term used by humans to say how God put the chemicals in the earth together to make these marvelous bodies of humans, animals, and plants over time.

Wrong again! It's as if you've never even read the definition of the term. By all means, feel free to disparage an idea that you have not researched, much less, understand.

TVOR

 

[Faust]

When I speak of perfection I mean incapable of generating imperfection.
Sense God is the generator of everything, why would the generation of this perfection, or rather "the generator" break down in this one instance, man?
I'm reminded of Jack Miles book, God a biography, are you familiar with it?
Miles speculates that sense God creates man in his own image he does so in order to interact with his creation in an attempt to understand himself.
Being one, The Supreme Being, he has no contemporaries and must create a being that he can relate to on an interpersonal level.

 

[chuck010342]

How do you know this is the right god?

two reasons. One he told me he was. Two because no other god actually does anything.

What proves this gods legitimacy over another god?

what he says comes true

Why do you believe the Judaic god is the right/only one instead of Horus?

Horus doesn't love humanity to send his son to die for it
horus didn't create the world
horus doesn't not talk
horus does not walk
the list goes on and on

 

[chuck010342]

When I speak of perfection I mean incapable of generating imperfection.

ahh we have different ideas of perfection. When I think of perfection I think of something without blemsih or without the ability to be wrong or to do wrong.

Sense God is the generator of everything, why would the generation of this perfection, or rather "the generator" break down in this one instance, man?

what God created in the six days of creation are good. what broke down is not God but man out of free choice broke down by breaking a commandment of God

I'm reminded of Jack Miles book, God a biography, are you familiar with it?
Miles speculates that sense God creates man in his own image he does so in order to interact with his creation in an attempt to understand himself.
Being one, The Supreme Being, he has no contemporaries and must create a being that he can relate to on an interpersonal level.

nope don't know him. his theory makes no sense. why would God want to understand himself? :bonk:

 

[bholly72]

"Horus doesn't love humanity to send his son to die for it"

Well, neither did Yahweh, unless you believe fairy tales.

"horus didn't create the world"

Neither did Yahweh.

"horus doesn't not talk"

Neither does Yahweh

"horus does not walk"

Sure he does. At least he has a body. Yahweh doesn't.

"the list goes on and on"

Sure does.


Jesus probably said a lot of stuff, but we don't know what they were. No reliable accounts exist.

 

[chuck010342]

"Horus doesn't love humanity to send his son to die for it"

Well, neither did Yahweh, unless you believe fairy tales.

yes he did and it is NOT a fairy tale

"horus didn't create the world"

Neither did Yahweh.

yes he did

"horus doesn't not talk"

Neither does Yahweh

yes he does

"horus does not walk"

Sure he does. At least he has a body. Yahweh doesn't.

horus is a god of the imagination and Yahweh walked the in cool of the day

"the list goes on and on"

Sure does.

sure does


Jesus probably said a lot of stuff, but we don't know what they were. No reliable accounts exist.[/QUOTE]

 

[Faust]

I'm sorry Chuck but I believe we debate from different foundations.

Thats not to say that I have the authority to pronounce your arguments wrong but they definitely conflict with my methods.
I debate based on "a priori" logic. And I'm willing to admit that Kant does a good job of proving the fallibility of this method, but I still cling to it as the best method available when faced with the alternatives.
I do not mean to offend here but I see your method as something I define as the lucky penny in the pocket defense.
If something happens and I say it happened because you had your lucky penny in your pocket, you could say that you didn't have a penny in your pocket when that happened, I would then say "prove it". You could say that there is no such thing as a lucky penny and I could reply "prove it". No one would know whether you had a lucky penny,let alone whether said penny was in your pocket when "something" happened, but no one could "prove" that my statements were erroneous either. Based on this method, no one would be able to "prove" or "disprove" the existence of nor the possesion of such a thing as a lucky penny by you or anyone else, and they certainly could not prove that a lucky penny did or did not exist, nor could they "prove" that it might or might not have an influence on anything that happens. I have no ability to defend my point of view against this kind of argument, it doesn't allow for it, but it isn't a very effective method of convincing someone to accept your point of view.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Faust -

You defend your point of view based on A Priori knowledge.
I defend my point of view based on A Posteriori knowledge.
Others on this site defend their point of view based on "Did so!" knowledge. That is to say, that like a young child, the defense of a given point of view is "Did so!" or "Did not!".
Very tough to rebut, due to a total lack of rational thought, logic, or reason.

TVOR

 

[linwood]

Horus doesn't love humanity to send his son to die for it

Well..no..no he didn`t but he himself was crucified, between two thieves y`know.
Years and years before Jesus was.
It`s ok though because he was resurrected 3 days later and everythings cool now.
He`s supposed to come back for a 1000 year reign of this world.

horus didn't create the world

Duh..His grand daddy Atuom created the world.

horus doesn't not talk

Sure he does..he talks to Hathor and Re all the time.
They once had a big conversation about why pork is bad.

horus does not walk

He does too..in fact he walked on water.
Thousands of years before Jesus ever did

the list goes on and on

It sure does...

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm